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Old 10-04-2012, 09:20 AM #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceguy View Post


I think brainwaves is a poor biomarker for this system for a few reasons.

1) they are measured by an EEG and we assume that the electrical activity patterns correlate to observations in adults. Historically science and doctors have made made huge mistakes by assuming babies are small adults. My field is drug metabolism and disposition. Studies have been done on aborted fetuses and babies to map the activity of liver enzymes at different stages of development. If I were to use one biomarker for liver activity I could easily assume that a newborn's liver doesn't work. The reality is that it does work albeit differently and those differences can generate toxic metabolites.

2: how are they measuring the EEG in the fetus? Are they inserting probes? Are they taking measurements on miscarriages and abortions? How much does the mom's electrical activity interfere with their readings? My gut feeling is that this is a very difficult thing to measure accurately in utero. If they use abortions/miscarriages, they can get the sensors placed properly, but the fetus is so stressed that the results are contaminated. If they measure non-invasively with sensors on the outside I would take the results with a grain of salt because it's a weak signal with lots of tissue in the way, and electrical background. If someone has a paper that illustrated how the measurement is made I would be interested to see it. Overbear states that at 24 weeks they aren't detected. I believe it's possible that at 18 weeks they may be present but undetected with the current system. In science bad data is worse than no data because if you think you're right you stop questioning.

3: a 24 week fetus is pretty big. A 21 week miscarriage just survived. By my own observations via ultrasounds they are very active at that age. I think there is more going on at that point than just an empty shell.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-abortion. Most women dont take getting one lightly. I'm just disputing the claim that this one biomarker that is useful in adults is the only way to measure human thought at that age of development.
I would like to poke holes in some of this...but, by current standards your right, and I can't.

So, what if we set that benchmark line at 20 weeks. It makes for a good round number, its safe to say nothing lives born at 20 weeks (nothing I found poking around goggle but I admit i didn't try very hard). So there you go, its a solid number, its a line in the sand everyone can be unhappy (and therefor all agree on) about.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:52 AM #359
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I can't speak for everyone, but I really just don't care. The potential for the life form to become a functioning human being matters not to me because there is no difference (in terms of utility) between not giving birth and not having sex in the first place. I do take a bit of ease and comfort from knowing that, if the procedure is done, it is done before the life form is aware of its surroundings in any way. But the simple fact that it is likely to create another human being makes no difference to me.

Like you said, merely a moral argument. I won't try and justify it by saying it's not considered life though.

It's funny how Overbear is completely ignoring my one simple question/clarification. Never expected him to post anything productive anyways...
Well yeah. If you look at the point I started making, what does it matter if you abort 5 days or 8 months? Every response so far has essentially supported what I said. The benchmark is wholly related to when we deem the thing to be human. Otherwise stated as, how human it appears.

As I've said, I choose not to focus on transient forms. Is a zygote different than a fetus, of course. Adults aren't children either. Yet, because these forms are transient, I find it most logical to treat them, overall, as a human being.

That being said, it now becomes most logical to talk about why we ought to abort, not when.

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Martian is an atheist, although he'd likely never label himself as such.
Edit: And by atheist, I mean there is not a god that he does believe in, and worship. He may not claim to know if there is a sentient creator of existence or not, but I'm pretty sure that he is not of the belief that a god does exist. But I may be wrong, I guess.
That's just my impression, so I'm sure he could provide a more accurately fitting response, but I can't see him calling himself a Theist.
Spracks,

See above for a response to your posts. We got off track.

By most standards I'm atheist. I have no reason to believe in supreme entities or beings. Studying religious traditions as I have, that conclusion becomes even more painfully obvious. I don't believe they claim that either, when you dig deep, past the stuff intended for mouth breathers. Anyway that is another topic.

I'm not as pro life as I might appear. The term is misleading as ****.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:39 AM #360
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I'm not as Anti-Abortion as I might appear. The term is misleading as ****.
FIFY

"pro life" is a spin term made up by the religious folk to make their side seem more resonable. It is what it is, they are ANTI abortion, they want to outlaw it, thats not pro anything.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:43 AM #361
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Pro abortion. Paid for one, for my Ex-fiance... later found out it was my "best friends" kid and they were ****ing behind my back.
best 500$ i ever paid.
Also wished her and him a happy mothers/fathers day the following holliday's.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:48 AM #362
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:57 AM #363
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Well yeah. If you look at the point I started making, what does it matter if you abort 5 days or 8 months? Every response so far has essentially supported what I said. The benchmark is wholly related to when we deem the thing to be human. Otherwise stated as, how human it appears.
I think I can respond to this by using my response to Overbear (I hate to do that to you).

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...1#post76902791

Quote:
As I've said, I choose not to focus on transient forms. Is a zygote different than a fetus, of course. Adults aren't children either. Yet, because these forms are transient, I find it most logical to treat them, overall, as a human being.

That being said, it now becomes most logical to talk about why we ought to abort, not when.
Works for me.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:13 PM #364
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
I think I can respond to this by using my response to Overbear (I hate to do that to you).

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...1#post76902791



Works for me.
Yeah that post was considered into my response. I'd say we are on the same page as far as understanding. I only differ in that somethings awareness or likeness to myself doesn't factor a lot into the equation. In this particular instance.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:15 PM #365
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FIFY

"pro life" is a spin term made up by the religious folk to make their side seem more resonable. It is what it is, they are ANTI abortion, they want to outlaw it, thats not pro anything.
Semantics as far as I'm concerned. No different than pro abortion secularists calling abortion "women's reproductive rights"

I prefer that we go ahead and ignore the loaded terminology altogether if you don't mind.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:57 PM #366
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Yeah that post was considered into my response. I'd say we are on the same page as far as understanding. I only differ in that somethings awareness or likeness to myself doesn't factor a lot into the equation. In this particular instance.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:14 PM #367
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Pro abortion. Paid for one, for my Ex-fiance... later found out it was my "best friends" kid and they were ****ing behind my back.
best 500$ i ever paid.
Also wished her and him a happy mothers/fathers day the following holliday's.



damn ****ty women
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:55 PM #368
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damn ****ty women
Nah just that 1, but thanks. Abortion is a good thing, some people shouldnt have kids.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:43 PM #369
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Courts don't always get it right. Abortion is not a right.
You have said the same thing 5 different times but fail to give an argument why your position is valid. You say that it is not a right, but according to law in most developed nations it is a right for a woman to have an abortion. Failing to recognize that it is an established LEGAL RIGHT for a woman to abort is failure to recognize a basic fact, like the sky is blue.

Now, if you are arguing that it is morally wrong, that is one thing, and it is subjective. I completely agree that in 95-99% of cases, I find it morally questionable. However, as a medical provider I do not have the right to force my ethical, religious or moral views on my patient. But I can try and convince them of alternatives so they can make an informed decision.

That being said, I have turfed two patients out of my practice when after an abortion they were not willing to go on birth control. Once can be a mistake, but if proper prevention is not used by reasonable adults, I have no time for it.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:53 PM #370
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Does a zygote qualify as life to you? If not, then why not?
Does an embryo qualify as life to you? If not, then why not?
Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not,[1][2] either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate.[3][4] Biology is the science concerned with the study of life.

A zygote in an of itself cannot have self-sustaining processes. It is essentially a parasitical collection of cells that divide and differentiate into the structures that will eventually allow it to sustain it's own existence.

The reason that alpha brainwaves are being discussed (my perspective) is that they give an objective measurement at the time when the zygote gains the ability to form coherent thought patterns. Also, we could use the point at which the zygote gains the ABILITY to be self-sustaining (not necessarily the point that it is born, but the point that if it was born that it could be kept alive outside the parent.

This entire thread has become circular; morality is completely subjective and trying to pretend it is not in defence of a position is just pretty retarded at this point.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:08 PM #371
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How do you reconcile moral relativism with your Christian faith?
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:43 PM #372
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Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not,[1][2] either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate.[3][4] Biology is the science concerned with the study of life.

A zygote in an of itself cannot have self-sustaining processes. It is essentially a parasitical collection of cells that divide and differentiate into the structures that will eventually allow it to sustain it's own existence.
By that, no infant is considered life. They are not self-sustaining.

That's a rather poor definition as well. Cars are self-sustaining until they run out of energy, just like us. To get rid of the gas argument I'm sure you'd put forth, a solar powered car is able to sustain itself almost indefinitely. Is that life? Most people would say no.

Quote:
This entire thread has become circular; morality is completely subjective and trying to pretend it is not in defence of a position is just pretty retarded at this point.
I'm interested in your response to Martian's post with this statement.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:48 PM #373
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Maybe if that solar powered car was on Mercury, sure. Lol.

I'm sure he means organic. But remember, for it to be life it must be able to reproduce. Infants cannot reproduce.

Again it goes right back into the transient form thing.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:05 PM #374
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By that, no infant is considered life. They are not self-sustaining.

That's a rather poor definition as well. Cars are self-sustaining until they run out of energy, just like us. To get rid of the gas argument I'm sure you'd put forth, a solar powered car is able to sustain itself almost indefinitely. Is that life? Most people would say no..
That again is a straw man. I cannot live without the farmer who grows crops, but given the availability of nutrients an infants system will process energy, adapt to their environment, grow and develop. However, in an of themselves a zygote is a parasitical growth of cells.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:07 PM #375
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Being the survivor of an abortion, I can say that abortions are bad.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:19 PM #376
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How do you reconcile moral relativism with your Christian faith?
Let's back that train up right there I have never said that I am a "Christian" in the normal sense. I was raised Anglican in a very open and progressive church and family. I have no faith in the bible as a literal translation of anything, as it was written (and rewritten, and retranslated, and rewritten) by people, and people put their own bias into anything they do. I do believe in the spirit of the parables that promote the positive actions of individuals (i.e. love thy neighbour, you are your brother's keeper, etc...)

Quite frankly, the Roman Catholic church and many other organized sects of Christianity are abhorrent. I believe that no man can interpret the mind of God, and anyone that claims to do so is attempting to keep themselves in power and control. That has been seen in all Abrahamic religions at one time or another. Also, the fact that old lecherous men have sodomized young children and not been called to task on it makes me question the reason that this institution has been held in such high regard in modern times.

I believe that I have a personal relationship with God, but it is not my place to discuss that relationship or attempt to convince anyone about why they should believe as I do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people are human beings who should have all the rights that I do, and who am I or anyone else to sit in judgement of another person.

This is one of the reasons that I have posted so frequently in this thread as well on the thread discussing homosexuality, as I watch 'Christian' individuals sit on their moral high horse and judge others and be part of the crowd instead of just admitting that they are a homophobe.

It is my responsibility to decide what is right for me, and to attempt to be a good person to the extent that I am able, and to attempt to care and assist those who cannot assist themselves.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:30 PM #377
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Let's back that train up right there I have never said that I am a "Christian" in the normal sense. I was raised Anglican in a very open and progressive church and family. I have no faith in the bible as a literal translation of anything, as it was written (and rewritten, and retranslated, and rewritten) by people, and people put their own bias into anything they do. I do believe in the spirit of the parables that promote the positive actions of individuals (i.e. love thy neighbour, you are your brother's keeper, etc...)

Quite frankly, the Roman Catholic church and many other organized sects of Christianity are abhorrent. I believe that no man can interpret the mind of God, and anyone that claims to do so is attempting to keep themselves in power and control. That has been seen in all Abrahamic religions at one time or another. Also, the fact that old lecherous men have sodomized young children and not been called to task on it makes me question the reason that this institution has been held in such high regard in modern times.

I believe that I have a personal relationship with God, but it is not my place to discuss that relationship or attempt to convince anyone about why they should believe as I do. Gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people are human beings who should have all the rights that I do, and who am I or anyone else to sit in judgement of another person.

This is one of the reasons that I have posted so frequently in this thread as well on the thread discussing homosexuality, as I watch 'Christian' individuals sit on their moral high horse and judge others and be part of the crowd instead of just admitting that they are a homophobe.

It is my responsibility to decide what is right for me, and to attempt to be a good person to the extent that I am able, and to attempt to care and assist those who cannot assist themselves.
So you don't believe an objective moral code exists (IE through God)? Does Gods "goodness" not imply a moral code?

I mean doesn't Christ himself dictate, to some extent, moral behavior? By virtue of the trinity, the morality espoused must be considered objective.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:40 PM #378
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So you don't believe an objective moral code exists (IE through God)? Does Gods "goodness" not imply a moral code?

I mean doesn't Christ himself dictate, to some extent, moral behavior? By virtue of the trinity, the morality espoused must be considered objective.
No, I believe that morality is dependant on the circumstance that one finds themselves in. And Christ was not considered divine until 300 years after he died. I believe in the teachings the same way that I believe in the teachings of MLK.

And again, it is not for men to interpret the mind of God; maybe the choices I make when faced with a decision are more important than what is written in a book that has been rewritten a dozen times over mostly by men who are more educated and have more power than those around them.

I believe that people also use religion as an attempt to not take accountability for their own actions, as well as a tool to control those around them. "God says that I should hate the gays; therefore it is morally correct that I am a homophobe". People do not want to look at themselves as flawed, and many times an interpretation of the bible gives them an out.

And please keep in mind that my faith is just a part of a larger whole, I also have three undergraduate degrees, Biology (HBSc), Psychology (HBSc) and Nursing (H.BScN), as well a masters degree in Public Health (MPH) and a nurse practitioner's certificate. I also minored in Philosophy and Physics. Creationism scares me to it's delusion.
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