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Old 09-28-2012, 08:41 AM #64
rnauman821
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Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise
Wrong. Liberals hate others, but conservatives realize you are just propagandized.

I don't hate liberals... I try to help liberals see that their viewpoints are flawed.

But, since you only get news and information from liberal biased sources, you don't realize that half the country isn't brainwashed like you.

Want to understand. Instead of only getting your information from wildly biased liberal news organizations.

Read www.drudgereport.com

Doing that ONE thing, will help you understand.

btw, calling someone out and saying you aren't calling them out isn't logical.
... The issue is, you aren't conservative. Neoconservatives are not conservatives.

Real fiscal conservatives are skeptical of both the R's and D's. Neither has been remotely close to fiscally responsible in 50 years. Both party's are equally incompetent. Their policies are so similar it's laughable. Neither has any intentions of fixing America; rather, they are fighting for who gets to raid the cookie jar.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:49 AM #65
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... The issue is, you aren't conservative. Neoconservatives are not conservatives.

Real fiscal conservatives are skeptical of both the R's and D's. Neither has been remotely close to fiscally responsible in 50 years. Both party's are equally incompetent. Their policies are so similar it's laughable. Neither has any intentions of fixing America; rather, they are fighting for who gets to raid the cookie jar.
Clearly you haven't read many of my posts...

A republican who has been in office for more than a decade, is only two steps higher than a democrat in my eyes.

I agree, BOTH parties are responsible. That is why the republicans got their clocks cleaned a few years back. But, then the country went democrat, and what did that do... Other than increase spending like CRAZY.

While they promised to cut the deficit in half in ONE term...

So clearly the democrats will say anything to get elected, and then spend like drunken sailors.

And the republicans will spend like drunken sailors, but pretend to not do that...

I would still vote for the lesser of the two evils when faced with two evils... But, I don't claim to be a party republican at all. I think the leadership of the republican party is totally corrupt. I want people like Palin in charge... (watch as the liberals throw a fit over that one... cause they are so "tolerant")
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:52 AM #66
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1. Entitlements- those that make there own way and those that rely on others to do "help them"!
2. Religion- those that believe we are here for a higher purpose and those that don't care.
3. Wisdom- those that understand the actual consequences of relying on the government, parents, drugs and alcohol or others for support instead of God.
4. Those that are aware of the "morality of human nature" and those that rebel against it. (for example: We can all agree that murdering another innocent human being is morally wrong, however there have been millions of live birth abortions performed in the US.)
5. Those that understand in order for people to be employed productively, there must be an atmosphere that is friendly towards "big business or small businesses." WELFARE DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE TO GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT!
6. Those that understand 14% is the true capital gains tax and that by making more money one can give substantially more away to charities.. $6 million (Romney)... $200,000 (Obama) ---charitable contributions


This ^
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:36 PM #67
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Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
Clearly you haven't read many of my posts...

A republican who has been in office for more than a decade, is only two steps higher than a democrat in my eyes.

I agree, BOTH parties are responsible. That is why the republicans got their clocks cleaned a few years back. But, then the country went democrat, and what did that do... Other than increase spending like CRAZY.

While they promised to cut the deficit in half in ONE term...

So clearly the democrats will say anything to get elected, and then spend like drunken sailors.

And the republicans will spend like drunken sailors, but pretend to not do that...

I would still vote for the lesser of the two evils when faced with two evils... But, I don't claim to be a party republican at all. I think the leadership of the republican party is totally corrupt. I want people like Palin in charge... (watch as the liberals throw a fit over that one... cause they are so "tolerant")
There is no lesser of the two evils. They both pushed healthcare reform that remains 95% the same. Neither has ever been fiscally conservative. Neither is willing to fight for personal civil liberties. Neither is willing to fight for privacy. Neither has ever made government smaller.

.... If you think Palin is anything more than a media side show, yet alone a legitimate candidate... You are not a fiscal conservative.


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Originally Posted by 2thdoc View Post
1. Entitlements- those that make there own way and those that rely on others to do "help them"!
2. Religion- those that believe we are here for a higher purpose and those that don't care.
3. Wisdom- those that understand the actual consequences of relying on the government, parents, drugs and alcohol or others for support instead of God.
4. Those that are aware of the "morality of human nature" and those that rebel against it. (for example: We can all agree that murdering another innocent human being is morally wrong, however there have been millions of live birth abortions performed in the US.)
5. Those that understand in order for people to be employed productively, there must be an atmosphere that is friendly towards "big business or small businesses." WELFARE DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE TO GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT!
6. Those that understand 14% is the true capital gains tax and that by making more money one can give substantially more away to charities.. $6 million (Romney)... $200,000 (Obama) ---charitable contributions
1) So Romney made his own way with nothing but the sweat on on his brow? No one helped him.

2) Religion is for fools. Believe in whatever you want, however it deserves no place in our government.

3) There is no god. If it trips your trigger to believe in an imaginary deity, go right ahead. However, you have no right to judge others unless their choices directly infringes on your personal freedoms. Your crutch is no more legitimate than theirs.

4) If you want to slow the rate of abortions, change the culture or offer economic incentives. Government has no place in personal health decisions. Invest in the development of male birth control or make current forms of birth control more accepted and available and you will have less abortions. If that doesn't trip your trigger, offer financial incentives for girls who give their babies up for adoption rather than abortion. Either way, progress for people like you won't be found in government regulation.

5) Cut down defense spending, stop using the fed, push tort reform, cut oil subsidies, cut foreign aid, put limits on SS and Medicare, and I will be right with you on work for welfare.

6) Our tax system is ****ed into the ground. Until a consumption based tax can be established (not anytime soon), capital gains taxes are still too low. Unless they can prove that the funds they have invested with are from income, the rate should be much higher. Most people, including myself, have issues with Romney's capital gains tax rate because much of the funds that comprise most of his portfolio have not been taxed as income. I don't doubt he paid tax every year, however I am all but certain that most of his holdings were siphoned into the US without paying standard income tax. Is it illegal, not specifically. Is it unethical, definitely. There is a reason he won't open up the books and has all but denied off shore holdings and businesses that still produce hidden income.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:52 PM #68
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2) Religion is for fools. Believe in whatever you want, however it deserves no place in our government.
That doesn't mean religious people can't be in government. No religious litmus tests.

Quote:
3) There is no god.
That right there is a positive statement of belief. Sure it's belief in no God, but that is still a belief.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:58 PM #69
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Well, of the two sides, a problem we are running into with our current government services being offered is how to pay for them. At this point many promises of benefits have been made - but as we are learning there isn't enough money to pay them all. Specifically, only around 1/3 of what is owed has been paid into Social Security and Medicare. Government pension funds are also in trouble being billions underfunded. With out reforms to the entitlement programs, (raising eligibility age, means testing etc) younger workers will end up paying much more in taxes, and having fewer work options available to them.

The problem that has been created is a good one. Due to more office work, and less manual labor, Americans are living longer. Living longer though has caused funding issues with entitlements that need addressing soon.

I thought this a nice article about the problems being faced by younger Americans, with the two political sides ideas on how to address the issue.

"There Are No Winners In The War Against The Young"

http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...lready-losing/

snippet from the article:

Quote:
That’s the reality, writes Matt Miller in the Washington Post:
You [younger Americans] are in big trouble. You don’t even know it. You’re busy trying to get a degree, land a job, start a family, save for a home. You don’t follow the news. But trust me—you’ve been taken for a ride by your elders. . . .
The job market for young people is a disaster, the toll of a burst financial and housing bubble that both parties let fester. The crisis has reached the point where years of unpaid labor (in the form of internships) have become a way of life for millions of Americans in their 20s.
Our K-12 schools have slid from the best in the world to mediocre under both Republican and Democratic presidents and governors. That’s largely because for decades we’ve embraced a bipartisan policy of recruiting middling students to become teachers.
Our roads, bridges, sewers, airports and power grids desperately need upgrades. Our investments in research and development as a share of our economy trail that of our peers. Republicans don’t seem to care. Democrats care enough to propose token sums that would fund a fraction of the need.
There’s no cash for such investments in the future because pension and health-care programs for seniors (plus a bloated Pentagon) take up so much of the budget. At the federal level, seven dollars go to programs supporting elderly consumption for every dollar invested in people under 18. Nationally (after taking account of the fact that most education is paid for at the state and local level), the ratio is still 2 1 / 2 to one…
Want more? For years, states have let public pension managers assume their investments would grow 7.5 or 8 percent a year, when 3 to 6 percent has been more realistic. This bipartisan ploy hides trillions more in pension shortfalls, funds that will have to be forked over one day by (you guessed it) younger Americans.
Read the whole thing. Miller echoes arguments Via Meadia has been making for some time. The evidence is devastating, but as Miller concludes, young people haven’t woken up to the dangers, even as the policies that turn the screws on them have gone on for years....
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:09 PM #70
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That doesn't mean religious people can't be in government. No religious litmus tests.



That right there is a positive statement of belief. Sure it's belief in no God, but that is still a belief.
Its hardly worth responding to these sorts of statements anymore. People like him have about as firm a grasp on metaphysics as creationists have on evolution which is to say - very ****ing weak.

Not that you or I would remotely agree on the topic. Anyway.
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Old 09-29-2012, 08:33 AM #71
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Its hardly worth responding to these sorts of statements anymore. People like him have about as firm a grasp on metaphysics as creationists have on evolution which is to say - very ****ing weak.

Not that you or I would remotely agree on the topic. Anyway.
... I don't see people people's political views shaped by their believe in the boogie man, yet there is the same amount of evidence supporting the existence of either entity. None.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:23 AM #72
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That right there is a positive statement of belief. Sure it's belief in no God, but that is still a belief.
NO.

I can't believe anyone could even say this.
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Old 09-29-2012, 12:04 PM #73
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cut foreign aid,
Sorry to tangent this already all over the place thread, but just curious about foreign aid and cutting it. What would the global outcome be from it? If we went to the countries we offer foreign aid to and were basically like "our country is in the ****ter we owe a lot of people a lot of money and need to fix our own problems we have not cared about for years because we have been busy worrying about your countries problems. we decided in our budget cuts to cut our foreign aid 50% for the next 10 years as this will help our current economic problem."

Would we be the ******* country for not supplying the aid we were before or would they understand that if we take some time to fix our **** they would be better off anyways.

again, i apologize to interrupt this thread, just been a background thought on me for a few days.
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:09 PM #74
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Sorry to tangent this already all over the place thread, but just curious about foreign aid and cutting it. What would the global outcome be from it? If we went to the countries we offer foreign aid to and were basically like "our country is in the ****ter we owe a lot of people a lot of money and need to fix our own problems we have not cared about for years because we have been busy worrying about your countries problems. we decided in our budget cuts to cut our foreign aid 50% for the next 10 years as this will help our current economic problem."

Would we be the ******* country for not supplying the aid we were before or would they understand that if we take some time to fix our **** they would be better off anyways.

again, i apologize to interrupt this thread, just been a background thought on me for a few days.

We could cut aid 100% and it ain't going to help. But due to peoples beliefs, aid to Israel will never be cut.
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:10 PM #75
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4 pages and no answers, seems par for course.
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:55 PM #76
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Sorry to tangent this already all over the place thread, but just curious about foreign aid and cutting it. What would the global outcome be from it? If we went to the countries we offer foreign aid to and were basically like "our country is in the ****ter we owe a lot of people a lot of money and need to fix our own problems we have not cared about for years because we have been busy worrying about your countries problems. we decided in our budget cuts to cut our foreign aid 50% for the next 10 years as this will help our current economic problem."

Would we be the ******* country for not supplying the aid we were before or would they understand that if we take some time to fix our **** they would be better off anyways.

again, i apologize to interrupt this thread, just been a background thought on me for a few days.
Foreign aid is a bad model to fix anything. It would be one thing if we actually had the money that we are handing out, however borrowing money at interest from the Fed only to hand it out is flat out retarded.

If we were smart, we would do what China has been doing for decades. Go to the country, offer to foot the capital to build mines and refineries and the locals get jobs. We get the resources for a fraction of what we are paying now, and the locals get real jobs. It adds stability to the region because the locals wont put up *** hats who try to tip the apple cart. Everyone comes ahead.
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Old 09-29-2012, 02:13 PM #77
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Originally Posted by OhIoCoNtRActKilLa View Post
NO.

I can't believe anyone could even say this.
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... I don't see people people's political views shaped by their believe in the boogie man, yet there is the same amount of evidence supporting the existence of either entity. None.
Simply put, we cannot know if God exists or not. Both the atheists and believers are wrong in their proclamations, and the agnostics are right. True agnostics are simply being Cartesian about it, recognizing the epistemological issues involved and the limitations of human inquiry. We do not know enough about the inner workings of the universe to make any sort of grand claim about the nature of reality and whether or not a Prime Mover exists somewhere in the background. Many people defer to naturalism — the suggestion that the universe runs according to autonomous processes — but that doesn't preclude the existence of a grand designer who set the whole thing in motion (what's called deism). And as mentioned earlier, we may live in a simulation where the hacker gods control all the variables. Or perhaps the gnostics are right and powerful beings exist in some deeper reality that we're unaware of. These aren't necessarily the omniscient, omnipotent gods of the Abrahamic traditions — but they're (hypothetically) powerful beings nonetheless. Again, these aren't scientific questions per se — they're more Platonic thought experiments that force us to confront the limits of human experience and inquiry.


Sorry, I couldn't ignore.
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Old 09-29-2012, 03:02 PM #78
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Simply put, we cannot know if God exists or not. Both the atheists and believers are wrong in their proclamations, and the agnostics are right. True agnostics are simply being Cartesian about it, recognizing the epistemological issues involved and the limitations of human inquiry. We do not know enough about the inner workings of the universe to make any sort of grand claim about the nature of reality and whether or not a Prime Mover exists somewhere in the background. Many people defer to naturalism — the suggestion that the universe runs according to autonomous processes — but that doesn't preclude the existence of a grand designer who set the whole thing in motion (what's called deism). And as mentioned earlier, we may live in a simulation where the hacker gods control all the variables. Or perhaps the gnostics are right and powerful beings exist in some deeper reality that we're unaware of. These aren't necessarily the omniscient, omnipotent gods of the Abrahamic traditions — but they're (hypothetically) powerful beings nonetheless. Again, these aren't scientific questions per se — they're more Platonic thought experiments that force us to confront the limits of human experience and inquiry.


Sorry, I couldn't ignore.
... How is it unreasonable to ask for evidence in a belief when that specific belief is being used as the only evidence of political stance.

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That right there is a positive statement of belief. Sure it's belief in no God, but that is still a belief.
To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldn’t be wrong to ask.

- Geoff Mather
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Old 09-29-2012, 03:12 PM #79
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True agnostics are simply being Cartesian about it, recognizing the epistemological issues involved and the limitations of human inquiry.
Agnosticism is an utterly worthless term.

Everyone is agnostic. Every. Single. Person. Nobody knows if there's a God-figure or not. We either believe or we don't.
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Old 09-29-2012, 03:14 PM #80
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Agnosticism is an utterly worthless term.

Everyone is agnostic. Every. Single. Person. Nobody knows if there's a God-figure or not. We either believe or we don't.
Admitting you don't know vs admitting you know
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Old 09-29-2012, 03:16 PM #81
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Admitting you don't know vs admitting you know
Atheists admit they don't know, thus the disbelief in religion. No need for agnosticism.
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Old 09-29-2012, 05:20 PM #82
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Atheists admit they don't know, thus the disbelief in religion. No need for agnosticism.
Umm... no. Atheists say there is nothing, not that there could be something.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:47 PM #83
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Umm... no. Atheists say there is nothing, not that there could be something.
Close, Atheists claim there is no god. There is something; however, it is believed to be the product of a large scale quantum mechanism. No deity involved.
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Old 09-29-2012, 07:11 PM #84
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Atheists admit they don't know, thus the disbelief in religion. No need for agnosticism.
agnosticism seems mostly like "im just going to not take part in either side (beleiving vs. aithiest), i dont know, therefore, not worried about it."

athiest's are largely agnostics with ignorance.
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