[Broseph_STallin]

Karthus doesn't need mana Regen becuase of his q? or w/e skill gives him mana back on minion kills. He needs a large mana pool so he can leave defile on longer then 4 seconds a fight.

Athenes is more suited for Cass/ziggs/anivia people who are super mana hungry and don't need early AP to stay in lane.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by Broseph_STallin

Karthus doesn't need mana Regen becuase of his q? or w/e skill gives him mana back on minion kills. He needs a large mana pool so he can leave defile on longer then 4 seconds a fight.

Athenes is more suited for Cass/ziggs/anivia people who are super mana hungry and don't need early AP to stay in lane.

It's his e, but that's what I thought unless you are just shoving unnecessarily with defile. Cass doesn't really need it though because of her passive. She also doesn't need the CDR all that much since her q/w just reset twin fangs CD to pretty much global anyway and they don't really have long CDs

[PBloler]

Originally Posted by azhector

It's his e, but that's what I thought unless you are just shoving unnecessarily with defile. Cass doesn't really need it though because of her passive. She also doesn't need the CDR all that much since her q/w just reset twin fangs CD to pretty much global anyway and they don't really have long CDs

Athene's is good on most mids for cdr, mana regen, and early mr for a strong lanning phase. Most ap mids other than assassins (with some other exceptions) build athenes as their first big item. That's why it is getting nerfed season 3. I dont think it's necessary on karth but it is very strong on cass.

[Broseph_STallin]

Originally Posted by azhector

It's his e, but that's what I thought unless you are just shoving unnecessarily with defile. Cass doesn't really need it though because of her passive. She also doesn't need the CDR all that much since her q/w just reset twin fangs CD to pretty much global anyway and they don't really have long CDs

I've been rushing grail on Cass almost every game, her passive helps but she will burn alot of her mana poking, her passive is only effective when you combo or get a q ee but that doesn't happen much against a good mid. I've even switched to movespeed quints on her because I was having a hard time following up on q's.

And the cdr is vital on Cass because of her w's long *** CD.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by PBloler

Athene's is good on most mids for cdr, mana regen, and early mr for a strong lanning phase. Most ap mids other than assassins (with some other exceptions) build athenes as their first big item. That's why it is getting nerfed season 3. I dont think it's necessary on karth but it is very strong on cass.

but to rush instead of getting things such as a revolver, or more damage?

Originally Posted by Broseph_STallin

I've been rushing grail on Cass almost every game, her passive helps but she will burn alot of her mana poking, her passive is only effective when you combo or get a q ee but that doesn't happen much against a good mid. I've even switched to movespeed quints on her because I was having a hard time following up on q's.

And the cdr is vital on Cass because of her w's long *** CD.

you can always q randomly, and when your passive is fully stacked it doesnt take really any mana. if i play Cass i generally get the slow from a scepter and you get the health bonus too.

her W is a long CD but i dont think its a spell you need to be getting off alot until teamfights when you should be buying pots and probably have blue buff. thats how i play her atleast

[PBloler]

Originally Posted by azhector

but to rush instead of getting things such as a revolver, or more damage?

you can always q randomly, and when your passive is fully stacked it doesnt take really any mana. if i play Cass i generally get the slow from a scepter and you get the health bonus too.

her W is a long CD but i dont think its a spell you need to be getting off alot until teamfights when you should be buying pots and probably have blue buff. thats how i play her atleast

Not saying I'm pro but do you ever watch pros or high elo? There are very few mids who do not benefit from rushing athenes. It gives you so much lane dominance through cdr, mana regen, mr, and a good amount of ap.

[Broseph_STallin]

Originally Posted by azhector

but to rush instead of getting things such as a revolver, or more damage?


you can always q randomly, and when your passive is fully stacked it doesnt take really any mana. if i play Cass i generally get the slow from a scepter and you get the health bonus too.

her W is a long CD but i dont think its a spell you need to be getting off alot until teamfights when you should be buying pots and probably have blue buff. thats how i play her atleast

Scepter is ok but as with pretty much every AP very the first item you build should be deathcap. Scepter is fine as a 3rd or 2nd item if you are fed but it doesn't help much unless you are getting burst down.

Her w is what makes her clear her lane insanely fast and has a slow already (albeit a small one until lvl 3) even with blue I have a hard time keeping mana in lane when I run double dorans on her.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by Broseph_STallin

Scepter is ok but as with pretty much every AP very the first item you build should be deathcap. Scepter is fine as a 3rd or 2nd item if you are fed but it doesn't help much unless you are getting burst down.

Her w is what makes her clear her lane insanely fast and has a slow already (albeit a small one until lvl 3) even with blue I have a hard time keeping mana in lane when I run double dorans on her.

Well it Depends their comp and yours, Cause if they are much more mobile it helps a lot and you dont have to worry about your w being on CD or in a bad spot.

Oh I don't really use her w to wave clear unless they went back. I like to keep it for escapes or kills.

[PBloler]

Originally Posted by azhector

Well it Depends their comp and yours, Cause if they are much more mobile it helps a lot and you dont have to worry about your w being on CD or in a bad spot.

Oh I don't really use her w to wave clear unless they went back. I like to keep it for escapes or kills.

With athenes you can use W to clear. Rylais first is really only good if you are playing ap "bruiser" top. Rumble, elise, diana, and akali can play ap top and usually go an magic pen/tanky build. It works well, wingsofdeathx plays ap bruisers top on his stream a lot which you dont see too much of in lower elos.

[Psybuster]

Athene is pretty bad on karthus, better to get RoA first. Rushing Chalice -> Athene's not gonna do any good when you are already squishy just by being Karthus.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by PBloler

With athenes you can use W to clear. Rylais first is really only good if you are playing ap "bruiser" top. Rumble, elise, diana, and akali can play ap top and usually go an magic pen/tanky build. It works well, wingsofdeathx plays ap bruisers top on his stream a lot which you dont see too much of in lower elos.

Well my theory on the game is team fights over what you do in lanes, so if Athenes is only better to clear lanes I'd skip it.

Originally Posted by Psybuster

Athene is pretty bad on karthus, better to get RoA first. Rushing Chalice -> Athene's not gonna do any good when you are already squishy just by being Karthus.

Yea my karth build is tear into RoA, but even that 1k for the tear seems to set me behind so much laning because my ulti has much less damage.

[PBloler]

Originally Posted by azhector

Well my theory on the game is team fights over what you do in lanes, so if Athenes is only better to clear lanes I'd skip it.

Yea my karth build is tear into RoA, but even that 1k for the tear seems to set me behind so much laning because my ulti has much less damage.

Athenes is hands down the best ap item right now. It is getting nerfed because it gives too many stats that help in lanning phase for cs and trades. Also it is good into late game as well.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by PBloler

Athenes is hands down the best ap item right now. It is getting nerfed because it gives too many stats that help in lanning phase for cs and trades. Also it is good into late game as well.

for some it certainly is extremely strong to rush, im just saying that there are items better for the late game on certain champions.

[PBloler]

Originally Posted by azhector

for some it certainly is extremely strong to rush, im just saying that there are items better for the late game on certain champions.

You dont build for the late game when its still early game.

Edit: sorry if i wasnt clear but you go athenes then deathcap. So while athenes doesnt give much ap but with deathcap immediately after it gives much more.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by PBloler

You dont build for the late game when its still early game.

Edit: sorry if i wasnt clear but you go athenes then deathcap. So while athenes doesnt give much ap but with deathcap immediately after it gives much more.

So never build gp10s or tear?

I guess it really does come down to how you play, and to each your own.

[PBloler]

Originally Posted by azhector

So never build gp10s or tear?

I guess it really does come down to how you play, and to each your own.

Wait, what? You are the one who said to build for the late game not me. Yes you should build gp10s when appropriate and no you should not rush shuryelias on support (which would be building for the late game). At least in our elo (which i assume yours is ~1200) it is very important to have a strong early game because in most games a team is clearly leading at the 20 min mark. In professional play the team leading in gold at the 12 min mark wins the game something like 80% of the time. The current strategy is to have a strong early game so you can control global objectives in the early mid mid game and get gold. Thats why you see people buying two doran's almost every game. The only reason not to is if you are way ahead or if you need some defensive stats to survive in lane.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by PBloler

Wait, what? You are the one who said to build for the late game not me. Yes you should build gp10s when appropriate and no you should not rush shuryelias on support (which would be building for the late game). At least in our elo (which i assume yours is ~1200) it is very important to have a strong early game because in most games a team is clearly leading at the 20 min mark. In professional play the team leading in gold at the 12 min mark wins the game something like 80% of the time. The current strategy is to have a strong early game so you can control global objectives in the early mid mid game and get gold. Thats why you see people buying two doran's almost every game. The only reason not to is if you are way ahead or if you need some defensive stats to survive in lane.

you said dont go for the late game while it was the laning phase, gp10s are a lategame investment. of course you dont rush shurylias unless you are like olaf, which then is still situational. i was like 1100s in s2 so give or take. when i lane against people who go for an item much better laning (like athenes on some) over an item that is great in team fights (such as RoA, deathcap, etc)

also keep in mind in our elo, if its not a free dragon before like 12 minutes, people arent going to go for it. most games the dragon wont fall untill like 18, where youll have probably 1 major item for the teamfight, and generally the first 2 teamfights will win the game.

and remember that 2 dorans is a sub 1k gold investment vs 3k(ish?), and is partially tanky (hp) and average stats for damage (so for ADC its 5 less damage for 160 hp and some LS) and AP's its 10 less AP for 160 HP and a bit of mregen. for an athenes you are only tankier against AP, which generally bruisers are more AD heavy

[PBloler]

Originally Posted by azhector

you said dont go for the late game while it was the laning phase, gp10s are a lategame investment. of course you dont rush shurylias unless you are like olaf, which then is still situational. i was like 1100s in s2 so give or take. when i lane against people who go for an item much better laning (like athenes on some) over an item that is great in team fights (such as RoA, deathcap, etc)

also keep in mind in our elo, if its not a free dragon before like 12 minutes, people arent going to go for it. most games the dragon wont fall untill like 18, where youll have probably 1 major item for the teamfight, and generally the first 2 teamfights will win the game.

and remember that 2 dorans is a sub 1k gold investment vs 3k(ish?), and is partially tanky (hp) and average stats for damage (so for ADC its 5 less damage for 160 hp and some LS) and AP's its 10 less AP for 160 HP and a bit of mregen. for an athenes you are only tankier against AP, which generally bruisers are more AD heavy

Gp10's are generally used by supports and some junglers as a source of income since they arent getting much farm. They are used by other lanes when they can't cs due to someones harass. So no gp10s arent for the late game. They are an early game replacement for a lack of the income you woukd ideally get through cs or kills.

I don't know why you think athenes is bad in teamfights. Cdr for more spell rotations and mr which doesnt protect you against everything but it is one more defensive stat that death cap.

I dont know if you play mid much or watch high elo mid streams but i watch scarra when ever he streams. He goes for a strong phase so he can force his opponent out of lane and get a lead in cs so he can roam and help his team get kills or global objectives. On most assassins he goes abyssal (or haunting guise into abyssal) first and most other aps he goes athenes first. There are very few ap mids that he (or other pro players) would rush deathcap on and even fewer that he would rush roa on.

Not sure what you are comparing the dorans item's stats to. Keep in mind deathcap is much more expensive than athenes. By about 700. 700 is alot, thats about 7 creep ways and equal to first blood plus another kill. And you are only getting 80 less ap for a handful of other ridiculous stats. Athenes is getting nerfed hard in S3 while deathcap will go unchanged, that obviously means something.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by PBloler

Gp10's are generally used by supports and some junglers as a source of income since they arent getting much farm. They are used by other lanes when they can't cs due to someones harass. So no gp10s arent for the late game. They are an early game replacement for a lack of the income you woukd ideally get through cs or kills.

I don't know why you think athenes is bad in teamfights. Cdr for more spell rotations and mr which doesnt protect you against everything but it is one more defensive stat that death cap.

I dont know if you play mid much or watch high elo mid streams but i watch scarra when ever he streams. He goes for a strong phase so he can force his opponent out of lane and get a lead in cs so he can roam and help his team get kills or global objectives. On most assassins he goes abyssal (or haunting guise into abyssal) first and most other aps he goes athenes first. There are very few ap mids that he (or other pro players) would rush deathcap on and even fewer that he would rush roa on.

Not sure what you are comparing the dorans item's stats to. Keep in mind deathcap is much more expensive than athenes. By about 700. 700 is alot, thats about 7 creep ways and equal to first blood plus another kill. And you are only getting 80 less ap for a handful of other ridiculous stats. Athenes is getting nerfed hard in S3 while deathcap will go unchanged, that obviously means something.

I build gp10s on top all the time...

I'm not saying its bad, I'm saying I don't think it's as strong on some mids where you need to rush it. I personally think about 200 AP is better then about 100 with CDR and ability to stay in lane longer.

[PBloler]

Originally Posted by azhector

I build gp10s on top all the time...

I'm not saying its bad, I'm saying I don't think it's as strong on some mids where you need to rush it. I personally think about 200 AP is better then about 100 with CDR and ability to stay in lane longer.

I said other lanes build gp10 too when they are behind or maybe need sustain from philo. Yes some mids go deathcap first annie, tf, etc. And it does better than athenes first on them.

[azhector]

Originally Posted by PBloler

I said other lanes build gp10 too when they are behind or maybe need sustain from philo. Yes some mids go deathcap first annie, tf, etc. And it does better than athenes first on them.

Regardless of being behind or not I will sometimes build it, jax vs Olaf match up I do it all the time since I want to keep on gold pace with his since Olaf generally builds a gp10 or two, you can naturally win a lane that was even with the slight extra gold push. So I generally will use that to my advantage

I think the list that benefit more from the death fire is atleast equal to the Athens first