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Old 10-29-2012, 10:21 PM #568
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Originally Posted by twichyfingerIII View Post
I'll be careful to kill those who killed us. This nation building bull**** gets no where. Either send everything and crush them or get everyone home. Either way I can't wait.
You know what they say. Two wrongs make a right... wait a minute!
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:24 AM #569
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...bart+Feed%2 9

"Mika Brzezinski: Why has it been so easy for the Administration's critics to say it does not have its story straight on Benghazi? ...
President Obama: I do take offense as I've said during one of the debates with some suggestion that, you know, in any way we haven't tried to make sure that the American people knew as information was coming in what we believed happened....
Joe Scarborough: Was it the intel community that was giving you bad information early on, because the stories keep changing?
President Obama: We find out there was a big breakdown and somebody didn't do their job they'll be held accountable.
Ultimately as Commander in Chief I am responsible and I don't shy away from that responsibility.
My number one responsibility is to go after folks who did this and we're going to make sure that we get 'em. I've got a pretty good track record doing that.


The American people have discovered that there was "a big breakdown" at Benghazi, and that "somebody didn't do their job." The person who didn't do his job? President Barack Obama.
On Saturday, Lt. Colonel Tony Shaffer told Fox News that his sources informed him that President Obama was in the situation room at the White House and watched the fatal Benghazi attack on September 11, 2012 and yet did nothing to aid the Americans on the ground desperately requesting assistance.
American planes were within one hour of going to the rescue. Tyrone Woods, the retired Navy Seal who went back to save Americans trapped in the Benghazi mission, had a laser pointed at the militant mortar battery that was launching artillery into the mission and a nearby "safe house." It would have been easy for American fighter pilots to take out that mortar battery had President Obama as Commander in Chief issued the order to go.
But the President failed to issue that order, and several hours later, Woods was killed by a bomb launched from the very mortar battery on which his laser was focused."


Obama, we know what you did, and you will be fired in a few days...
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:34 AM #570
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I find that part very hard to believe.

For one, nobody laser designates fixed targets anymore. You simply pull out the Vector, hit the target, get the 10 digit grid, then go back in to cover. This is a pretty standard piece of equipment.

Second, where does a retired Navy SEAL get a laser designator? Why would you laze a target if you didn't know if there was air or not? You don't.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:29 PM #571
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:47 PM #572
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You guys need to catch up...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...k-sources-say/

Drones were ON SCENE capable of sending REAL TIME video of what was happening to the white house. (guess the white house was too busy watching youtube to find something to blame this on?).

"Fox News has learned from sources who were on the ground in Benghazi that an urgent request from the CIA annex for military back-up during the attack on the U.S. consulate and subsequent attack several hours later on the annex itself was denied by the CIA chain of command -- who also told the CIA operators twice to "stand down" rather than help the ambassador's team when shots were heard at approximately 9:40 p.m. in Benghazi on Sept. 11.

Former Navy SEAL Tyrone Woods was part of a small team who was at the CIA annex about a mile from the U.S. consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and his team came under attack. When he and others heard the shots fired, they informed their higher-ups at the annex to tell them what they were hearing and requested permission to go to the consulate and help out. They were told to "stand down," according to sources familiar with the exchange. Soon after, they were again told to "stand down."

Woods and at least two others ignored those orders and made their way to the consulate which at that point was on fire. Shots were exchanged. The rescue team from the CIA annex evacuated those who remained at the consulate and Sean Smith, who had been killed in the initial attack. They could not find the ambassador and returned to the CIA annex at about midnight.

At that point, they called again for military support and help because they were taking fire at the CIA safe house, or annex. The request was denied. There were no communications problems at the annex, according those present at the compound. The team was in constant radio contact with their headquarters. In fact, at least one member of the team was on the roof of the annex manning a heavy machine gun when mortars were fired at the CIA compound. The security officer had a laser on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a Spectre gunship, which is commonly used by U.S. Special Operations forces to provide support to Special Operations teams on the ground involved in intense firefights.
CIA spokeswoman Jennifer Youngblood, though, denied the claims that requests for support were turned down.
"We can say with confidence that the Agency reacted quickly to aid our colleagues during that terrible evening in Benghazi," she said. "Moreover, no one at any level in the CIA told anybody not to help those in need; claims to the contrary are simply inaccurate. In fact, it is important to remember how many lives were saved by courageous Americans who put their own safety at risk that night-and that some of those selfless Americans gave their lives in the effort to rescue their comrades."
The fighting at the CIA annex went on for more than four hours -- enough time for any planes based in Sigonella Air base, just 480 miles away, to arrive. Fox News has also learned that two separate Tier One Special operations forces were told to wait, among them Delta Force operators."
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:02 AM #573
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Even the New York Post is wondering why the media is silent on Benghazi...

"Where is the Benghazi media feeding frenzy?

I don’t think there’s a conspiracy at work. Rather, I think journalists tend to act on their instincts. And, collectively, the mainstream media’s instincts run liberal."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...20Column ists

"Last week, Fox News correspondent Jennifer Griffin reported that sources on the ground in Libya say they pleaded for support during the attack on the Benghazi consulate that led to the deaths of four Americans. They were allegedly told twice to “stand down.” Worse, there are suggestions that significant military resources were available to counterattack, but requests for help were denied.

If true, the White House’s concerted effort to blame the attack on a video crumbles, as do several other fraudulent claims. Yet, last Friday, the president boasted, “The minute I found out what was happening” in Benghazi, he ordered that everything possible be done to protect our personnel. That’s either untrue, or he’s being disobeyed on grave matters.

Yet Fox News is alone in treating the story like it’s a big deal. During the less significant Valerie Plame scandal, reporters camped out on the front lawns of Karl Rove and other Bush White House staff. Did Obama confiscate those journalists’ sleeping bags?

Of the five news shows last Sunday, only “Fox News Sunday” treated this as a major story. On the other four, the issue came up only when Republicans mentioned it. “Meet the Press” host David Gregory shushed a guest who tried to bring up the subject, saying, “Let’s get to Libya a little bit later.” He never did, but he saved plenty of time to dive deep into the question of what Indiana Senate candidate Richard Mourdock’s comments on abortion and rape mean for the Romney campaign.

I’m willing to believe that journalists like Gregory are sincere in their desire to play it straight. But among those who don’t share his instincts, it’s hard to distinguish between conspiracy and groupthink. Indeed, it’s hard to think why one should even bother trying to make that distinction at all."
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:59 PM #574
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Panetta: Military lacked enough information to intervene during Benghazi attack


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"(The) basic principle is that you don't deploy forces into harm's way without knowing what's going on; without having some real-time information about what's taking place," Panetta told Pentagon reporters. "And as a result of not having that kind of information, the commander who was on the ground in that area, Gen. Ham, Gen. Dempsey and I felt very strongly that we could not put forces at risk in that situation."
Libyan citizens not only condemned the attacks, they went after the perpetrators themselves. These actions alone seem to be a pretty good testament to the positive measures of diplomacy we've taken in Libya.

Calling in an airstrike and leaving tens, if not hundreds, of Libyans dead because some ******* terrorist was launching mortars from an apartment building wasn't going to help anybody. More than likely, that was the response these *******s were looking to provoke by such an attack, but we denied them that PR victory and received overwhelming support from the Libyans.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again: you're getting hot and bothered because the administration didn't make a knee-jerk reaction. How can you possibly expect anyone to take you seriously with such a premise?
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:02 PM #575
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How can you possibly expect anyone to take you seriously with such a premise?
Wait. FE wants people to take him seriously? I thought he's been a running joke for a few months at least.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:41 PM #576
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Originally Posted by StellarKnight View Post

Panetta: Military lacked enough information to intervene during Benghazi attack




Libyan citizens not only condemned the attacks, they went after the perpetrators themselves. These actions alone seem to be a pretty good testament to the positive measures of diplomacy we've taken in Libya.

Calling in an airstrike and leaving tens, if not hundreds, of Libyans dead because some ******* terrorist was launching mortars from an apartment building wasn't going to help anybody. More than likely, that was the response these *******s were looking to provoke by such an attack, but we denied them that PR victory and received overwhelming support from the Libyans.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again: you're getting hot and bothered because the administration didn't make a knee-jerk reaction. How can you possibly expect anyone to take you seriously with such a premise?
You obviously have no idea how wars are fought. SMU's do far more with much less. I don't mean that as an insult, I mean that you do not have the experience in combat applications.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/1...ver-heard.html

Quote:
Leon Penetta is Either a ******* or a Liar

The Secretary of Defense, in his most determined way, continues to try to protect the President from the fiasco in Benghazi. So desperate to shield the President he announced what will be forever remembered as the Penetta Doctrine:

“(The) basic principle is that you don’t deploy forces into harm’s way without knowing what’s going on; without having some real-time information about what’s taking place,” Panetta told Pentagon reporters. “And as a result of not having that kind of information, the commander who was on the ground in that area, Gen. Ham, Gen. Dempsey and I felt very strongly that we could not put forces at risk in that situation.”

Of course, in the circles that I ran with, it will be forever labeled “The Dumbest **** I Ever Heard Doctrine”.

To be fair to Leon, however, his audience for this ridiculous statement was not members of the military and especially not for those in the Special Operations arena who immediately recognized that the entire statement is not a doctrine at all. It is horse****, nothing more.

The “The Dumbest **** I Ever Heard Doctrine” was targeted toward civilians. Read the doctrine carefully. On the surface it makes a case for Force Protection being an overriding element of critical decision making and it should be and it makes sense. The Secretary of Defense wants to ensure the safety of our troops and understands the value of “real-time information”. Okay, makes sense, good job Leon, end of story, right?

A couple of points however need to be made.

First. I am certain that Penetta realizes that we have very specially trained folks whose job it is to execute missions just like what was needed in Benghazi. On the other hand, maybe he didn’t, since both of the Generals who he supposedly consulted with have a grand total of ZERO days duty in any Special Operations organization. In fact, they are both old tankers. The senior of which, General Dempsy, has a Master's degree in literature from Duke University, where he wrote a thesis on the Irish poet W B Yeats. He was a Captain then, and that thesis alone should have rendered him ineligible for promotion to field grade officer.

Second, and this is very important. I don’t know what Penetta’s definition of “real-time information” is, but I suspect that, if Eisenhower had the same doctrine, we’d still be sitting in England waiting to invade Europe.

Let’s review the real-time facts that we know so far. The entire event was being streamed live to the State Department and, in all likelihood, the White House situation room. That’s pretty “real-time” if you ask me, but it gets worse. Not only were we watching the entire damn thing on expensive televisions; we had at least two highly trained special operators on the ground in direct communication!

Do you think the whole Pointe Du Hoc event would have happened during the D-Day attack if Ike and boys had two Navy SEALs telling them that the artillery had been moved?

Maybe MacArthur should have cancelled the Inchon landings in Korea because having a live tv stream and two highly trained individuals on the ground just wasn’t quite enough “real-time information”?

And this is why “The Dumbest **** I Ever Heard Doctrine” is so ridiculous.

The best “real-time information” possible is eyes on the objective.
Even better is people on the objective with eyes on the enemy.
Even better than that is people on the objective that are highly trained with years of special ops experience in direct communications.

My God people, this was a perfect intelligence situation to execute a forced entry relief operation!

I spent my youth (24 years) in Infantry and tier one Special Ops units and have been up to my *** is serious fighting on many occasions. In all that time, I never hit an objective where two Navy SEALs were already there and feeding me all the information I could ever want! Hell, that wouldn’t even be a raid, it would be a link-up!

What more information do you need? Or was this never about information at all? Was it really the president deciding that the lives of four Americans wasn’t worth as much as a campaign talking point?

In any case, this was not a military consideration made by Penetta or any Generals, it was purely political.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:08 PM #577
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You obviously have no idea how wars are fought. SMU's do far more with much less. I don't mean that as an insult, I mean that you do not have the experience in combat applications.
I don't have any experience in combat situations, but comparing the Normandy and Inchon landings (two offensive campaigns) to a hypothetical link-up at the Benghazi consulate is a bit disingenuous.

I'm not about to comment on the capabilities of our special mission units because I don't know anything about their round-the-clock tactical readiness, but I do know they would have been more than capable to have handled such a scenario given the necessary and proper information. What I do know is that the use of close air support via a Spectre gunship would more than likely have caused more harm than good.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:51 PM #578
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Wait. FE wants people to take him seriously? I thought he's been a running joke for a few months at least.
I thought the running joke was you being forum captain with posts like this.

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Old 10-31-2012, 04:51 PM #579
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The gunship can stay on station for close air support if it was needed but it could provide surveillance for the guys on the ground. SMU guys are anywhere from 24 hr notice to 1hr notice, maybe even serving a QRF roll just in case. I would bet my last dollar that there are plenty of delta guys in or around the ME that could've/would've hopped on a plane in a moments notice to halo in. What the article states was that there was more than enough information to go off of to execute a mission at a moments notice. Those guys train for things like that. They have the ability to develop and adapt to the surroundings instantly. The bottom line, and I think you feel the same, is that those 4 guys were left out to dry without so much as an attempt. I understand we don't have all the details, but it's only a matter of time before we do and I'm more inclined to believe someone that has been there done that and has the t-shirt to prove it, than the guys that sit behind a desk and 'call the shots'.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:19 PM #580
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"A good plan violently executed today is far and away better than a perfect plan tomorrow." - General George Patton


This guy explains the quote pretty well.
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The most potent message from Patton's statement is that we shouldn't delay or prevaricate in taking action - which is of course is the biggest threat to any small business. The second powerful part is the 'perfect plan.' We all want it to be perfect, but the reality is, it never will be. So 'best foot forward' is a better mantra. The second point is closely related to the first, because it is our desire for everything to be perfect that gives us another good excuse to delay.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:25 PM #581
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I thought the running joke was you being forum captain with posts like this.

Music forum. Not here.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:01 PM #582
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I don't have any experience in combat situations, but comparing the Normandy and Inchon landings (two offensive campaigns) to a hypothetical link-up at the Benghazi consulate is a bit disingenuous.

I'm not about to comment on the capabilities of our special mission units because I don't know anything about their round-the-clock tactical readiness, but I do know they would have been more than capable to have handled such a scenario given the necessary and proper information. What I do know is that the use of close air support via a Spectre gunship would more than likely have caused more harm than good.
I don't mean to be condescending, so please don't take it this way.

There are posters in this forum who do have combat experience and are well aware of the capabilities of today's military. Having a gunship or even a Hornet (about 1 hour away in Sigonella) do a fly-by on the attackers may have been all that was needed to disperse them. Neither aircraft would need to actually fire to "notify" the attackers that they were now outmatched and their game was over. SFD also noted an aircraft overhead can be an eye-in-the-sky for those on the ground.

Also, no relief force was organized or sent, and that is part of the point. It is a better idea to scramble the relief force and have them in the air as soon as possible because the trip can be aborted if the situation stabilizes or turns out to not be as serious as initially thought. The troops can be briefed on the way, but any time lost in not sending them immediately can never be recovered.

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Old 11-01-2012, 08:46 AM #583
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What is abundantly clear is the liberal media in our country don't want to dig around and find facts on this story...

A little bit of digging in other countries media will tell you why...

http://blogs.jpost.com/content/bengh...tober-surprise


The above article would blow this election wide open, IF the media covered it... Which they haven't.

This administration and it's media cheerleaders are actively hurting America and most of you don't even realize it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:02 AM #584
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If AQ is attacking now, its because of the election. Which means they don't want President Obama to get re-elected. Which means they're scared of him.

Not voting for Obama is letting the terrorists win.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:14 AM #585
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Wow, that is some pathetic logic...

Yeah, no way Obama caused the 9/11 attack by going around during the DNC convention spiking the football about Osama, and bragging about how AQ was dead and gone BECAUSE of him...

If the truth about Benghazi came out, even you die hard liberals would be sickened by what Obama did. (or DIDN'T do...)

I don't elect traitors.


Besides, Obama was actively ARMING Al Qaeda with guns and weapons. Hmm, no wonder the media is being so quiet about covering this.

Oh wait. Lookie here.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-benghazigate/

"Once Moammar Gadhafi was overthrown, Stevens was appointed ambassador to the new Libya run by Mr. Belhadj and his friends. Not surprisingly, one of the most important priorities for someone in that position would be to try to find and secure the immense amount of armaments that had been cached by the dictator around the country and systematically looted during and after the revolution.

One of the places in Libya most awash with such weapons in the most dangerous of hands is Benghazi. It now appears that Stevens was there — on a particularly risky day, with no security to speak of and despite now copiously documented concerns about his own safety and that of his subordinates — for another priority mission: sending arms recovered from the former regime’s stocks to the “opposition” in Syria. As in Libya, the insurgents are known to include al Qaeda and other Shariah-supremacist groups, including none other than Abdelhakim Belhadj.

Fox News has chronicled how the Al Entisar, a Libyan-flagged vessel carrying 400 tons of cargo, docked on Sept. 6 in the Turkish port of Iskenderun. It reportedly supplied both humanitarian assistance and arms — including deadly SA-7 man-portable surface-to-air missiles — apparently destined for Islamists, again including al Qaeda elements, in Syria."
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:28 PM #586
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If AQ is attacking now, its because of the election. Which means they don't want President Obama to get re-elected. Which means they're scared of him.

Not voting for Obama is letting the terrorists win.
lol
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:56 PM #587
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The bottom line, and I think you feel the same, is that those 4 guys were left out to dry without so much as an attempt.
The armed forces, as well as the American public, deserve to know what happened with this situation. We need to know how it transpired, why no attempt was made to stage some sort of immediate response and what should have been done to prevent such a ****ty event.

What doesn't need to happen, and what will ultimately lead to obfuscation of what transpired, is turning the situation into a political hot potato through overwrought sensationalism. The right is treating this whole situation as a sort of silver bullet to the heart of the Obama administration, while the left is pretending as though nothing happened. Neither one of those approaches is the appropriate way of handling the situation.

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I don't mean to be condescending, so please don't take it this way.
I appreciate the sentiment, but if I'm being an ignorant jerkoff then by all means be condescending

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Having a gunship or even a Hornet (about 1 hour away in Sigonella) do a fly-by on the attackers may have been all that was needed to disperse them. Neither aircraft would need to actually fire to "notify" the attackers that they were now outmatched and their game was over.
Maybe, but considering the makeup of the opposing force it's difficult to say. Islamic militants have been known to put their personal fears aside to do some pretty heinous things, and who's to say whether a fly-by would have had any effect on them.

100% pure speculation on my part, but what of part of the goal of this attack was to provoke a response in force by the US, one which would result in civilian collateral damage? We saw how the Libyan public reacted subsequent to the attack by Ansar al-Sharia, so what if this was an attempt to break pro-American sentiments amongst Libyans?
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:49 PM #588
SniperForce-Duffek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StellarKnight View Post
The armed forces, as well as the American public, deserve to know what happened with this situation. We need to know how it transpired, why no attempt was made to stage some sort of immediate response and what should have been done to prevent such a ****ty event.

What doesn't need to happen, and what will ultimately lead to obfuscation of what transpired, is turning the situation into a political hot potato through overwrought sensationalism. The right is treating this whole situation as a sort of silver bullet to the heart of the Obama administration, while the left is pretending as though nothing happened. Neither one of those approaches is the appropriate way of handling the situation.

I agree with this, but, if it's the only way it's going to come to light, then it has to happen. It's not the right answer, but getting to that answer by any means is better than not getting to it at alll.


I appreciate the sentiment, but if I'm being an ignorant jerkoff then by all means be condescending



Maybe, but considering the makeup of the opposing force it's difficult to say. Islamic militants have been known to put their personal fears aside to do some pretty heinous things, and who's to say whether a fly-by would have had any effect on them.

Whether or not a show of force would have worked is debatable. However, when fighting breaks out in ANY country, civilians tend to separate themselves from that fighting. You'd be surprised how accurate a gun ship can be. You don't have to drop 105mm explosives on them, they could have shot some 25mm rounds in the area of the enemy. Danger close missions aren't always recommended, but they do work. Sometimes you have to take risks in order to change the outcome. None were taken here. I think that 'collateral' damage from a gunship is an excuse. The AF can drop a 2000lb Jdamn through a bedroom window. I'll explain this better if I need to.


100% pure speculation on my part, but what of part of the goal of this attack was to provoke a response in force by the US, one which would result in civilian collateral damage? We saw how the Libyan public reacted subsequent to the attack by Ansar al-Sharia, so what if this was an attempt to break pro-American sentiments amongst Libyans?

I don't know where he came up with that idea, but even I don't think it's very likely.
See note above. I'll debate this topic with anyone that has questions, comments or concerns. I don't know economics, but I do know war. This is my area and am more than willing to help paint a better picture for those that are interested in it.
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