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Old 09-18-2012, 03:44 PM #379
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According to the laws of science, fabric, can not pass through solid metal without tearing or ripping. It just doesn't happen.

She had a hole in the front and back of her jeans from the bar, which impaled her. And yet, I pulled her out of the car when her jeans passed THROUGH the bar. That isn't possible, and yet I witnessed it, and the old man, as well as the girl in the accident all witnessed it as well.

How did "man" cause her jeans to pass THROUGH the bar and my fingers?


This thread, and most like it in this forum are based on individuals world view. The believer in Islam has a world view that holds to him getting Sharia law as the law of the land.

My world view is Christian, but clearly different than many Christians on this site.

Our world views shape the way we view things that happen. What I can clearly see as the hand of God in the events above, you in your world view, can't.

You are correct, in that all of us get to choose what we believe, but if I witnessed these things, and then didn't tell others, what would that make me?...

It would be like seeing that wreck, and just ignoring it, and letting you believe what you want, while you burned to death right in front of me.
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:54 PM #380
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That's an amazing experience, FE. I've had experiences myself that leave no question in my mind as to the existence of God. Unfortunately, religion is a very personal thing that your average person won't udnerstand unless they have a strong personal desire to know the truth. That's the reason I stay far away from the religion forum these days - because some things are understood by the heart and soul rather than on paper or in a debate forum. I enjoyed reading your experience though and hope that it doesn't get treated the same way that most displays of personal experiences or feelings do around these boards.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:01 PM #381
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It would be like seeing that wreck, and just ignoring it, and letting you believe what you want, while you burned to death right in front of me.
And so be it, as the decisions that I had made would put me in that situation. You assume that we need to be rescued. Why do you feel so certain of this? Don't you ever think "What if I'm wrong"? What if all of these people that you are preaching to actually took what you said to heart and changed themselves because of you, but you were wrong? You never consider that?
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:02 PM #382
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I would argue that spiritual experience is a personal thing but religion is meant for the whole.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:04 PM #383
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I would argue that spiritual experience is a personal thing but religion is meant for the whole.
Not to throw the thread woefully off topic, but could you elaborate on this?
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:12 PM #384
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And so be it, as the decisions that I had made would put me in that situation. You assume that we need to be rescued. Why do you feel so certain of this? Don't you ever think "What if I'm wrong"? What if all of these people that you are preaching to actually took what you said to heart and changed themselves because of you, but you were wrong? You never consider that?


John 3:16 answers that question...

But all you have to do is look at what a person produces. If a worldview is good, it will produce good things. Is the worldview that our country has put in power been helpful, or has it damaged our country?

The answer is obvious, gas prices are skyrocketing, food prices are skyrocketing, unemployment skyrocketing (so much so, that they are manipulating the numbers to make it look better than it is), morality is suffering, and our country is divided.

It all comes from our world view, and how we think about things.

A friend of mine made a video that explores a lot of these issues.



Our world views matter, and we all have world views that either produce good or evil. So yeah, you can in fact judge people based on what they do in the world. Many actually have good intentions, but if they do what they want and society suffers under their rule, then logically, that isn't a good course to follow.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:29 PM #385
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Not to throw the thread woefully off topic, but could you elaborate on this?
Religions are designed for whole societies. Where you sit in the natural distribution of ability dictates what religion's function is to you. Religion seems to be the very antithesis of the pluralistic society.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:31 PM #386
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And the worldview of Christianity is better in what way?

If I choose to love another man, your religion will not allow it.

If I am a woman who is pregnant, your religion will not allow me to have an abortion.

If I choose to have pre-marital sex, your religion will not allow it.


How is it that you can support the organization that enforces these rulings? How can you honestly say that you are indeed a good person when you feel it is your right to tell another human being what they may or may not do? Who has given you or anyone else that right?

Edit: To FE
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:42 PM #387
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And the worldview of Christianity is better in what way?

If I choose to love another man, your religion will not allow it.

If I am a woman who is pregnant, your religion will not allow me to have an abortion.

If I choose to have pre-marital sex, your religion will not allow it.
You're thinking only in terms of what you think is best for you, not what is actually the best for your society as a whole.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:42 PM #388
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How can you honestly say that you are indeed a good person when you feel it is your right to tell another human being what they may or may not do?
You mean like all laws? When you live in a society, few dictate rules of that society. Are those bad people to you?
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:47 PM #389
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Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
According to the laws of science, fabric, can not pass through solid metal without tearing or ripping. It just doesn't happen.

She had a hole in the front and back of her jeans from the bar, which impaled her. And yet, I pulled her out of the car when her jeans passed THROUGH the bar. That isn't possible, and yet I witnessed it, and the old man, as well as the girl in the accident all witnessed it as well.

How did "man" cause her jeans to pass THROUGH the bar and my fingers?.
It didn't, in the heat of the moment, with all your adreanline(sp) dumped into your system (along with everyone else on a high) your perception was not what happend. You simply slid the leg off the bar and out of the way, and you got her out.

kudos to you for helping others, but to attest human interaction to some invisible ghost? dude...we lock people up in mental wards for that.

So what does any of this have to do with the extreme hate and intolorance the muslum world has for us?
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:50 PM #390
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You mean like all laws? When you live in a society, few dictate rules of that society. Are those bad people to you?
To be "good" is to be completely permissive. When permissive behavior creates consequences, it is immediately delt with through efforts to reduce the consequences rather than placing a limit on the behavior.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:54 PM #391
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It didn't, in the heat of the moment, with all your adreanline(sp) dumped into your system (along with everyone else on a high) your perception was not what happend. You simply slid the leg off the bar and out of the way, and you got her out.

kudos to you for helping others, but to attest human interaction to some invisible ghost? dude...we lock people up in mental wards for that.

So what does any of this have to do with the extreme hate and intolorance the muslum world has for us?
We also lock up terrorists for talking about killing people.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:55 PM #392
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We also lock up terrorists for talking about killing people.
no, we lock them up for acting on it...lucky for me I am not a terrorist.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:57 PM #393
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You're thinking only in terms of what you think is best for you, not what is actually the best for your society as a whole.
Let me explain a little more.
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You mean like all laws? When you live in a society, few dictate rules of that society. Are those bad people to you?
Laws are in place to protect people. When a person speeds, they are endangering the people around them. They are making a decision that can impact other people, which is why we have put laws into place that are to keep that from happening (or as much as possible).

If the decision that someone is making is one that harms another human being, then this is an example where laws are necessary to protect us.

If the decision is one that does not harm another human being, then it is one that nobody needs to worry about.

We obviously have to make some sacrifices when living in a society.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:58 PM #394
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no, we lock them up for acting on it...lucky for me I am not a terrorist.
In his defense, Patriot Act.
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:51 PM #395
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Religions are designed for whole societies. Where you sit in the natural distribution of ability dictates what religion's function is to you. Religion seems to be the very antithesis of the pluralistic society.
Yes, but this doesn't have an impact on the fact that personal experiences may affect one's feeling towards that religion (assuming that participation in the religion is voluntary)
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:01 PM #396
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Yes, but this doesn't have an impact on the fact that personal experiences may affect one's feeling towards that religion (assuming that participation in the religion is voluntary)
Right which is why religions vary but Religion is universal.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:52 PM #397
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If the decision that someone is making is one that harms another human being, then this is an example where laws are necessary to protect us.

If the decision is one that does not harm another human being, then it is one that nobody needs to worry about.

We obviously have to make some sacrifices when living in a society.
Speeding can directly harm somebody else, but some of the things you mentioned harm society as a whole, just indirectly.

For example a child growing up in a single parent family which is more likely to happen when promiscuity and lack of moral character abounds is more likely to be less educated and more likely to become involved in drugs or criminal activity or have emotional problems. Neighborhoods where broken homes are the norm tend to be the neighborhoods with the most crime and the worst standards of living. So sure it doesn't directly effect somebody at least not as visibly, but there is in fact measurable harm to society.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:57 PM #398
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If the decision is one that does not harm another human being, then it is one that nobody needs to worry about.
.
So you're against laws that make people wear clothes or outlawing public sex?
against loitering laws?
public drunkenness?

Not all laws are to "protect" people. Most are just agreements of the restrictions of rights that the majority think is best for the group. It's how a society chooses how the members should live. Support it or not, that's how it works.
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:05 PM #399
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So you're against laws that make people wear clothes or outlawing public sex?
against loitering laws?
public drunkenness?

Not all laws are to "protect" people. Most are just agreements of the restrictions of rights that the majority think is best for the group. It's how a society chooses how the members should live. Support it or not, that's how it works.
Did you miss the part where I said some sacrifices have to be made when living in an organized society? Come on man, I'm not a *******. The point is that you, nor anyone else, has the right to tell another human being who they can love or what they want to do with their body. How anyone could feel empowered to do so really just boggles my mind.
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