[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Eric the Fish

True he did say and less. Awkward uasage of language. Between 50 k and 250 k would have better terminology. The way he stated it, it seems to be 200k to 250K as the median when in actuality it represents the upper middle class. In any event Obama wants to increase taxes on people who make in excess of 250k and if you want more accurate labels name them the top 5%. I am trying to point out Romney has little common with most Americans. To the point where he would deny people the very programs that helped his own fatter get a leg up.

So why did you quote me?

[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin

Keeping your money in offshore accounts and Cayman banks isn't against the law. The IRS can't do anything. But it is super hypocritical to criticize others for not paying taxes while using every shady loophole in the book to not pay yours.

He's paid plenty in taxes, and also donated plenty to charity.

He was stating that he's not going to go after them politically and decrying the entitlement mentality. He made a mistake in that I don't think it's 47%, but both points are true - his tax message doesn't resonate with people that don't pay income tax, and there is a huge problem in this country with the growing entitlement mentality. His only mistake was linking the together. Not everyone that doesn't pay taxes has an entitlement mentality, and not everyone that has an entitlement mentality doesn't pay taxes.

Romney has reapeated multiple times that he would like every american to be paying taxes because that means that every American would be working better jobs (or jobs period). He is interested in growing the economy and paying down the debt, not telling people that they deserve a larger share of a shrinking pie paid for at others expense.

[drgonzo]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

Romney has reapeated multiple times that he would like every american to be paying taxes because that means that every American would be working better jobs (or jobs period).

Guess no one told him every American pays taxes, with the possible exception of children who die very young.

[TheSilentAssassin]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

He's paid plenty in taxes, and also donated plenty to charity.

He was stating that he's not going to go after them politically and decrying the entitlement mentality. He made a mistake in that I don't think it's 47%, but both points are true - his tax message doesn't resonate with people that don't pay income tax, and there is a huge problem in this country with the growing entitlement mentality. His only mistake was linking the together. Not everyone that doesn't pay taxes has an entitlement mentality, and not everyone that has an entitlement mentality doesn't pay taxes.

Romney has reapeated multiple times that he would like every american to be paying taxes because that means that every American would be working better jobs (or jobs period). He is interested in growing the economy and paying down the debt, not telling people that they deserve a larger share of a shrinking pie paid for at others expense.

It's hypocritical to use loopholes to not pay the correct amount of taxes while criticizing others for not paying the right amount of taxes.

[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin

It's hypocritical to use loopholes to not pay the correct amount of taxes while criticizing others for not paying the right amount of taxes.

Logic fail. He's not saying anybody isn't paying the "right amount of taxes". He's lamenting that so many don't pay any taxes and lamenting the culture of dependency. There's nothing illegal with having an account in the caymans. Quit hatin'.

[TheSilentAssassin]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

Logic fail. He's not saying anybody isn't paying the "right amount of taxes". He's lamenting that so many don't pay any taxes and lamenting the culture of dependency.

He is criticizing 47% for being dependent because they don't pay all of their taxes. They do pay sales tax. They do pay payroll taxes in most cases. They pay a lot of taxes. All of them except one. Mitt Romney is criticizing them for not paying all their taxes; just most of them.

Mitt Romney also uses loopholes to not pay certain types of taxes. He uses offshore accounts to not pay types of taxes. He uses tax shelters to not pay certain types of taxes.

Therefore he is hypocritical.

Originally Posted by Swerve22

There's nothing illegal with having an account in the caymans. Quit hatin'.

I believe I already said that... I'm not saying what he is doing is illegal. It isn't. But what the 47%ers are doing isn't illegal either. This isn't an argument of legality; it is one of principle.

[drgonzo]

Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin

I believe I already said that... I'm not saying what he is doing is illegal. It isn't. But what the 47%ers are doing isn't illegal either. This isn't an argument of legality; it is one of principle.

Pwnership society.

[Tin-Man]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

He's paid plenty in taxes, and also donated plenty to charity.

13-14% is not 'plenty' when he is criticizing those that get 'government handouts'. And that number is by his own admission. Yes he is paying what he is required to pay by law, but hussled his little *** off to make sure that the Buffett rule never passed.

What he fails to mention is that he himself received those 'handouts' when he took tax breaks for investment income. And Fox is unfortunately precipitating the stereotype by saying that 70% of households got some sort of government 'handout' in the past 5 years without specifying that includes tax credits, rebates (including that amazing $300 cheque Bush signed us all up for), social security, student credits/loans. All of which I would have never considered 'handouts'.

Here is my issue; I'm a white, Christian, well-educated individual making >200,000k annually. I should be firmly in the Republican pocket. But I just can't justify supporting a platform that in recent years has been more about beating up gays, reducing support programs for those less fortunate, and increasing the gap between middle and upper class. My family came to this country already fairly well off from Canada, and have made a very successful business (although it is local, being one of the largest independent pharmacies in a district cannot be considered 'small' business I think).

I'm not all that supportive of the Democrats because I know that the current spending is unsustainable without raising taxes. However, if the Republicans had allowed the Bush-era tax cuts to expire (which were created in a much more favourable economic climate) instead of voting them down, we would have increased the nation debt by a fraction of what it currently is increasing by daily.

Dump Ryan, get Paul and maybe he has a shot. I do believe that after the two weeks of fiascos that have been occurring, he's going to crash and burn on election day unless there is a video released where Biden blows a horse.

[F1VENOM]

Did anyone else notice Mittens making another gaff at his Univision interview? He's been watching too much Jersey Shore or he needs to fire his campaign manager for allowing him to walk on stage like that. I don't think it was deliberate but once again his disconnect from reality is being discussed.

[情けない]

Originally Posted by Tin-Man

13-14% is not 'plenty' when he is criticizing those that get 'government handouts'. And that number is by his own admission. Yes he is paying what he is required to pay by law, but hussled his little *** off to make sure that the Buffett rule never passed.

Except that he was already taxed on that money once when he originally earned it as well.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Guys the quote only mentioned income tax. Where the hell are you getting this "dont pay any taxes" ?

[Eric the Fish]

Actually one of the tax rates Romney and other financial investment firms get at 15% is for investing OTHER entities money and then getting paid for it. They call it capital gains. I'd call if pay for work done and should be taxed appropriately.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

Logic fail. He's not saying anybody isn't paying the "right amount of taxes". He's lamenting that so many don't pay any taxes and lamenting the culture of dependency. There's nothing illegal with having an account in the caymans. Quit hatin'.

You are arguing the wrong sentiment. The divide between the left and the right on this "gaffe" is actually over government dependency. Dont take the bait swerve it makes you look like hypocritical ***** when you debate the tax aspect.

[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch

You are arguing the wrong sentiment. The divide between the left and the right on this "gaffe" is actually over government dependency. Dont take the bait swerve it makes you look like hypocritical ***** when you debate the tax aspect.

You're corect and I also mentioned no taxes when I meant income taxes. Romney confused the two groups causing the gaffe, but his main argument was pretty much as simple as saying die hard fans will always support their guy - so there's no point in wasting allyour political effort going for them you you have your own side and the middle to go after.

He also made the point about government dependency, but like I said his only mistake was euqating the 47% with the dependnecy mentality - some of them may buy in to it and some may not - to seperate groups of people.

[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by Eric the Fish

Actually one of the tax rates Romney and other financial investment firms get at 15% is for investing OTHER entities money and then getting paid for it. They call it capital gains. I'd call if pay for work done and should be taxed appropriately.

If you want less people investing in startups and other business and thus creating less opportunity for economic growth then yeah, that's a great idea.

Just so we don't forget how startups have been doing lately under the Obama admin:

http://www.hudson.org/files/publicat...ion0912web.pdf

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

You're corect and I also mentioned no taxes when I meant income taxes. Romney confused the two groups causing the gaffe, but his main argument was pretty much as simple as saying die hard fans will always support their guy - so there's no point in wasting allyour political effort going for them you you have your own side and the middle to go after.

He also made the point about government dependency, but like I said his only mistake was euqating the 47% with the dependnecy mentality - some of them may buy in to it and some may not - to seperate groups of people.

When you add up all the people dependent on government either through payroll or social programs, what is the percentage?

I mean beyond that, is the position of the right not about individual responsibility and unified culture thus direction? Put in the simplest terms possible of course. Shouldnt the energy be put in that alternative to the left's vision? Fixing the economy and tax code is great, but without any sense of direction for society as a whole, the right is going to fail and has failed. Prosperity or not.

[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch

When you add up all the people dependent on government either through payroll or social programs, what is the percentage?

I think the more correct question would be what percent are currently recieving more in benefits than they are paying in. Ideally what percent percieve themselves as receiving more than they are paying in. I'm not sure what percent that is and cant' seem to find it quickly googling while at work, but that is where you'll find the fostering of an entitlement mentality.

I mean beyond that, is the position of the right not about individual responsibility and unified culture thus direction? Put in the simplest terms possible of course. Shouldnt the energy be put in that alternative to the left's vision? Fixing the economy and tax code is great, but without any sense of direction for society as a whole, the right is going to fail and has failed. Prosperity or not.

Unfortuntely change in culture impacts the direction of society more than any sort of governmetn policy that could be reasonably enacted in a free western society. In my opinion the "culture war" has been lost and we now live in a society and culture where "individual liberty" is valued over cultural prosperity. Things that are considered "ok" and even "cool" in todays society are generally things that hurt our society as a whole and cause the degredation of the family, lower educations, higher crime and drug usage, etc. etc. These are things such as sex out of wedlock, acceptance of divorce, and all those other things that nobody wants to stand up for for fear of being labeled a holy roller or a church and state uniter or whatever.

EDIT: I'm saying these things can't be fixed by government policy. Unless our culture starts heading in a direction, no amount of regulatory tweaking be it fiscal, economical, or whatever will solve the fact that America is headed for decline.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Precisely why I've been saying that any attempts on the right to use government to force cultural norms is ineffective. But yes, absolute individual autonomy is not only mythology, but completely destructive. But hey it sounds good at parties and is appealing to emotions so it must be correct right?

[chodeyg]

The culture war was conveniently only brought up by one side, much of that was lamentation over gay rights and abortion etc. It's kind of like al gore heading climate change; complaints about a culture war led by pat Robertson and bill o Reilly types were bound to rub people the wrong way and divide people based on party lines.

It is unfortunate that few have noticed the breakdown of taboos, including greater acceptance of children out of wedlock like you said. Such things have an impact on the economy that is hard to measure in terms of what could have been. I am hoping that polarization will break down a bit after this election.

[Iamamartianchurch]

The culture war is a machination of leftist ideology. It shouldnt come at any surprise to anyone that the right brings it up considering they are for cultural consensus.

[chodeyg]

It would be hard to point a finger at either party for the individualistic attitude of US citizens, I am pretty sure that culture of individuality and excess has been in our DNA for quite some time. There is more to our culture problem than family ideology. What about people who never recycle? And people who drive around, alone, in empty pickup trucks and SUVs?