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View Poll Results: As a whole, are unions needed?
Yes 32 40.00%
No 48 60.00%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-06-2012, 06:31 PM #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
Alright, thought experiment. We don't have teacher's unions.

Can anyone come up with a system within which teachers can lobby for better working conditions (read:better schools) as well as have a voice when their pay/benefits get cut without jeopardizing children's education? Where bad teachers can be removed, and good teachers compensated accordingly/improve other teachers?
Yes it is called a free market.
Quote:
lobby for better working conditions
"Mr. Principal/Superintendent/Whoever I do not like my classroom. The desks are old, it stinks and the books are falling apart. If you do not improve my conditions I am going to leave to work at a school that provides better conditions."

Quote:
have a voice when their pay/benefits get cut without jeopardizing children's education
Mr. Superintendent, I do not believe I am being paid enough. I work these hours, get paid this much and it is not enough. My performance reviews have been good, my students are doing well. Please give me a raise or when school is out I am quitting to go to a school that cares more about the teachers and the only reason I am waiting that long is because I don't want the kids to get a new teacher mid-year."


Quote:
Where bad teachers can be removed, and good teachers compensated accordingly/improve other teachers?
"Mr. Teacher, all of your kids are failing. You do not engage students in the classroom nor do you keep control of the classroom. You show up late and call in sick. Here is Mr. Smith, a teacher who has gotten good reviews. Please ask him questions and work with him to improve the quality of your work. If improvements are not seen in the coming months we will take the necessary measures to ensure our students are getting the best education from the best teachers."



Well, we went ahead and fixed the glitch, so it will just, you know, work itself out.

Last edited by benji25 : 12-06-2012 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:40 AM #170
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:49 AM #171
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:43 AM #172
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anyone LOOKed at the results of our schools... How about in Michigan where the teachers called in sick today to whine about the VOTERS making the state a "right to work state"...

Naa, teachers are mad, good thing they fail their students every year and the kids can't read, and their math "skills" are even worse...

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/only...icient-reading

"68 percent of Michigan public-school eighth graders are not proficient in reading and 69 percent are not proficient in math.

Over the past decade, Michigan’s public school have shown no improvement at all in teaching children how to read. In 2002 just as in 2011, according to the U.S. Department of Education, only 32 percent of Michigan public-school eighth graders scored proficient or better in reading."


They should FIRE every single teacher that "called in sick" and doesn't have a doctors note, since they are clearly LYING about where they are...

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18046

"At least 26,000 children will miss school today because their teachers called in sick or took a vacation day to protest proposed right-to-work legislation, which is expected to pass today."
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:50 PM #173
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Here in Oklahoma, growth was shown as negligible because for the 7th year in a row, the state department raised the cutoff bar as to what was considered unsatisfactory and limited knowledge AFTER the test was taken and individual schools weren't informed of the new standards. Yes, 7 years in a row. And yes, AFTER the tests were given. And yes, it was reported as students who can't read or aren't proficient in math. Not one mention of cutoff scores being risen or explanation as to why. NO ONE can work when the rules are constantly being changed...NO ONE.

So teachers can't strike? Or complain about work conditions, but everyone else can? Let's fire EVERYONE who complains about their jobs and that way we'll never see any improvement in any job system.

I'll say it again - stop putting teachers on the pedestal of perfectness because we didn't ask for it nor do we want it. We have just as much a right to demand better working conditions as every other professional out there.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:22 PM #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vikingshadow View Post
Here in Oklahoma, growth was shown as negligible because for the 7th year in a row, the state department raised the cutoff bar as to what was considered unsatisfactory and limited knowledge AFTER the test was taken and individual schools weren't informed of the new standards. Yes, 7 years in a row. And yes, AFTER the tests were given. And yes, it was reported as students who can't read or aren't proficient in math. Not one mention of cutoff scores being risen or explanation as to why. NO ONE can work when the rules are constantly being changed...NO ONE.

So teachers can't strike? Or complain about work conditions, but everyone else can? Let's fire EVERYONE who complains about their jobs and that way we'll never see any improvement in any job system.

I'll say it again - stop putting teachers on the pedestal of perfectness because we didn't ask for it nor do we want it. We have just as much a right to demand better working conditions as every other professional out there.
It isn't teachers that we (or I at least) are talking about. It is unions in general. All they effectively do is cause disruptions. The employees of whatever union think they deserve more money or better working conditions. But instead of negotiating for themselves and pursuing a different employer (one that would satisfy their desires) they go on strike and refuse to work until they get what they want. I mean, I guess I used to do that but it was when I was 4 and want a new toy. Once again this is unions in general, not teachers specifically.

In case you can't tell I support less regulated workforce where you succeed or fail on your own merits. I would support unions in the sense that they take a role in which they ensure everyone is adequately trained in their profession. For example a bricklayers' "union" in which companies can hire from this union and know that the workers are trained in the profession. This would lead to efficiencies for companies to hire many individuals and know they have the same training. This would be similar to the goal of basic training in the military: you can grab hundreds of soldiers and put them in a unit and they will all know they basic commands/lingo/procedures.

Last edited by benji25 : 12-11-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:36 PM #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vikingshadow View Post

I'll say it again - stop putting teachers on the pedestal of perfectness because we didn't ask for it nor do we want it. We have just as much a right to demand better working conditions as every other professional out there.
What other jobs should be put on a higher pedestal than the people who have a direct impact on the successfulness of the future generation of this country? There's very few jobs in my opinion who should be held to higher standards. That being said I also believe teachers should be equipped with everything they need to succeed, so the only thing they have to worry about is their students.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:01 PM #176
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If you are thinking you are going to get everything you need to succeed from the government... meh, I quit.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:12 PM #177
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
If you are thinking you are going to get everything you need to succeed from the government... meh, I quit.
The entire story of America's economic success is largely driven by the government.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:15 PM #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
If you are thinking you are going to get everything you need to succeed from the government... meh, I quit.
Tuch'e

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
The entire story of America's economic success is largely driven by the government.
Disagree, it's the people and their values, not government.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:22 PM #179
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Is government not a reflection of a people and their values? From what else could it possible arise?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:26 PM #180
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Is government not a reflection of a people and their values? From what else could it possible arise?
This. If we believe in democracy, we believe that our government is representation of our people's will (and by extension their values).
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:30 PM #181
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I don't believe in democracy.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:32 PM #182
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I don't believe in democracy.
I would bet tsballer does though (kinda the point).
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:34 PM #183
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Its a possabirity.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:40 PM #184
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Hope the right to work bill won't go through. Shocking to think that anyone is rooting for workers to earn less anywhere. We know that workers make less on average in right to work states. And some like to argue that paying people peanuts is attractive to investment...like in Bangladesh.

What about what I ALWAYS hear from conservatives...if you don't like it, don't work there?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:50 PM #185
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
This. If we believe in democracy, we believe that our government is representation of our people's will (and by extension their values).
I implied a larger picture than America and democracy.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:53 PM #186
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Hope the right to work bill won't go through. Shocking to think that anyone is rooting for workers to earn less anywhere. We know that workers make less on average in right to work states. And some like to argue that paying people peanuts is attractive to investment...like in Bangladesh.

What about what I ALWAYS hear from conservatives...if you don't like it, don't work there?
I could see that argument working for the private sector part of the Michigan debate. However to force public employees to pay dues would seem to imply that the government is supporting unions and could possibly lead to corruption/kickbacks.

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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
The entire story of America's economic success is largely driven by the government.
So the millions of hard working Americans hard working nature and our pursuit of "the American Dream" did not play a significant role in where this country is today?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:54 PM #187
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I implied a larger picture than America and democracy.
We were talking about american economic success and how it relates to our democratic governance. Why wouldn't we want to narrow down to that specifically? I agree with the broader principle. I was just specifying to clarify a point.

To be very clear
Gonzo: American economic success is driven by government
tsballer: American economic succes is driven by the American people and their values.
Your point: Government is a reflection of people and their values.
My specification: American democracy is a reflection of american people and their values therefore American economic success is driven by government.

Where did I go wrong?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:56 PM #188
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I just believe in the power of the individuals and giving them some credit than just the government.



Quote:
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Is government not a reflection of the majority and their values? From what else could it possible arise?
To be fair.


And yes I do believe in democracy
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:29 PM #189
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Yes it is called a free market.

"Mr. Principal/Superintendent/Whoever I do not like my classroom. The desks are old, it stinks and the books are falling apart. If you do not improve my conditions I am going to leave to work at a school that provides better conditions."

Mr. Superintendent, I do not believe I am being paid enough. I work these hours, get paid this much and it is not enough. My performance reviews have been good, my students are doing well. Please give me a raise or when school is out I am quitting to go to a school that cares more about the teachers and the only reason I am waiting that long is because I don't want the kids to get a new teacher mid-year."

"Mr. Teacher, all of your kids are failing. You do not engage students in the classroom nor do you keep control of the classroom. You show up late and call in sick. Here is Mr. Smith, a teacher who has gotten good reviews. Please ask him questions and work with him to improve the quality of your work. If improvements are not seen in the coming months we will take the necessary measures to ensure our students are getting the best education from the best teachers."
And what happens to the children in districts with fewer resources/failing districts? Do we just abandon them as casualties of the "free market"?

What makes you think a teacher can leave a failing district without forfeiting their pension?

What makes you think a superintendent would pay more attention to an individual teacher instead of a group of teachers?
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