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View Poll Results: As a whole, are unions needed?
Yes 32 40.00%
No 48 60.00%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-28-2012, 10:56 AM #85
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So administrators determine the number of students they have to teach and the budgets they receive?
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:09 AM #86
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How do you want to cut this pie?

Yes, the administrators determine how the school house runs.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:13 AM #87
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You act as if they're unconstrained and don't have to serve every student with meager budgets.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:29 PM #88
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Not in the least. They have a set of rules they have to follow, but for some god damned reason they won't say "We can't do this."
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:51 PM #89
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Well... yea. If you don't have enough money for required resources, then you don't get those resources. If you don't have the resources, you can't effectively teach. So why bother letting your subordinates do a half a**** job?

Again, that is an administration level problem.
Administrators are like accountants whose job is to balance a checkbook; if the checkbook is low it means very little to them. The teachers are told which teaching methods to use and the assumption is that if students perform poorly then it is their fault. Absurd. Teachers aren't the problem... politicians that think they're more qualified to teach than those that are certified are the real problem.

Unions cause issues too because there is no works-based promotion. Teachers unions are a joke and really do nothing to take care of their constituents.

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I'm kind of ok with that. I believe that it is my job as a parent to prepare my children for the world. So, I would ultimately be responsible for their critical thinking skills... amongst other things.

I also reject Dewey.
Not every parent thinks like you, particularly those in socioeconomically challenged areas tend to view school as free daycare. These are the same parents that can't afford to clothe their kid, yet have an iphone. You want your kid to have a tailored educational experience, then put them in a prep school because there's no way they'll get it in the public system.


Here is another issue... kids that move from one state to another may be significantly behind the benchmarks in either direction. A proposed solution: http://www.corestandards.org/in-the-states
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:32 PM #90
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Teachers unions are a joke and really do nothing to take care of their constituents.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about unions. A union's constituents are its members.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:09 PM #91
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Don't bring up "unreimbursed supplies". They don't need them to do the job, otherwise they would either be supplied like all other government jobs OR reimbursed.
I've eaten more than a few hundred dollars in ink for printers that need to print legal documents for state/national mandated meetings, testing materials and resources. I wont do it anymore. My admins know and they budget accordingly or find money for these types of things. I usually have a class set of general supplies and send home a list of consumables home twice a year for the rest of it.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:24 PM #92
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Actually I was responding to your complaint that teachers are underfunded. I used his example because he was an industry scientist at an evil drug company that ended up making roughly the same as a teacher. His change came with the added bonus of having summers off and more time to play in his band at night.

I ask again, what's the hourly rate for a teacher? Assume summers off and a 6.5 hr day. If you want to get more complicated add in vacation weeks and all the random days off.

I really don't care that teachers are paid so much. I just want them to stop whining about it. It's a job like any other. Many teachers look at it like they're doing some sort of favor to everyone else. The numbers free enterprise put up (I don't know if you block him) were pretty close to reality in my state. 75k isn't bad.

My general point is that The union has worked out a pretty good deal for payment... And that doesn't even include retirement benefits. Non union charter school and private school teachers make far less. The day care teachers, who work much harder than anyone, make almost nothing. If you made what they make, I'd feel bad for you. I've never heard them complain to me. I'm sure they ***** to each other on lunch break though. Who doesn't ***** about work over lunch?

6.5 hr day? Seriously?! My day starts at 7:30 with a 35 min lunch 45 min planning time and goes on to 3:30...officially. I put in at least 1 to 1.5 hrs after school and another hour or so after my kids go to bed.

The district I work for starts @ 44,455 with 0 years experience to 61,550 with 25 yrs and a phd.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:55 PM #93
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin

You are basically saying that we should pay people below living wage because other people live farther below that wage. That's like saying you shouldn't feed hungry people because of starving people.
Before I start this is on my phone so I apologize for typing errors.

How am I saying that at all? If the market demand for your job is minimum the. You should get paid the minimum. If you don't like that amount of money or don't think it is enough to support your lifestyle then it is your responsibility to find something else that will work. Don't ***** to the union/employer that they don't pay you enough because quite frankly they could find hundreds of people that will do it for the same price (or a fifth of the price if they outsource).

It sucks but its life.

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Old 11-29-2012, 06:21 AM #94
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You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about unions. A union's constituents are its members.
No. I understand it quite well. I could simply use your word and it still means the same... The teachers' union does nothing to take care of it's members.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:20 AM #95
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6.5 hr day? Seriously?! My day starts at 7:30 with a 35 min lunch 45 min planning time and goes on to 3:30...officially. I put in at least 1 to 1.5 hrs after school and another hour or so after my kids go to bed.

The district I work for starts @ 44,455 with 0 years experience to 61,550 with 25 yrs and a phd.
I'm required to get to work by 7:30 (school starts at 7:45). I get a 20 minute planning period during the day and 30 minutes lunch IF I don't have lunch duty that week (which I do this week). Last night I got home at 6:30 because I had to stay and write up IRPs and get ready for next week's Literacy First testing that will take up at least three days of time which should be used teaching. Then, I still brought papers home to grade last night. Typically, I spend 2 hours after school is out working (I actually prefer to work to 5:00 as I spent several years in the non-teaching world before I started teaching.) That is if we aren't having one of our many meetings the district requires us to have. I'd say I put in well over 50 hours a week easily - the only day I refuse to work on school stuff is Saturday - that day is for my family. Sunday, I grade papers, make copies, write lesson plans and set up projects, etc. in my classroom for the next week.

Our district starts at 27,000 with 0 years experience. I've been teaching 11 years and make just over 34,000 per year. Our highest step is a little under 46,000 per year. I'm also not a member of NEA or OEA (the union available to us) but they are a collective bargaining union here so for whatever that's worth, what they negotiate are terms of employment - not usually teacher salary - and I get the benefits of that. I do belong to Professional Oklahoma Educators, which is a union but not a bargaining union within the district and they ONLY deal with education, not like NEA/OEA does.

You guys keep saying teachers want more money. Who doesn't? But we hardly EVER bring it up. Look who brings up teacher pay most often - I promise you it isn't teachers! We knew what we were getting into when we chose this path. Instead, we ask for more planning time to prepare better lessons, less meetings, less duty (ie lunch duty, recess duty, before and after school duty, etc) - basically things that take us from doing what we were hired to do. You do realize that a lot of times our hands are tied as far as what and how we can teach, right? We're told, by our principals, our superintendents, our legislators AND our state superintendents what we have to teach and how they want us to do it. Blaming whats wrong with education on the teachers is like blaming the doctor for you being sick.

I'll say this - as screwed up as it is, I love my job. It's not easy, it's stressful, it's extremely difficult and we're under attack most every day of the school year. But, I've done other jobs and teaching, by far, has been the most enjoyable experience I've had - and one of the hardest jobs I've had.

I stay out of these conversations as a rule, because most of you seem to have "poor pity me, I had ****ty teachers so the whole system sucks" syndrome. In fact, I won't participate any further than this, because unless you've actually taught, you have NO idea how it really is in a classroom. Most of you aren't even PARENTS so you really don't have a clue what it's like to deal with children. Your point of view has strictly been from the student desk - which hardly shows you what goes on behind the scenes. So, I won't be suckered into this discussion, because no matter how logical teachers are, no matter the evidence we provide, you don't want to hear it.

I'll close with this, though. As far as all the "time we get off", you do realize teachers are the ones pushing for longer school years, right? Most of us agree that students lose a lot of what we taught over the summer. Yes, I get summers off (when I'm not in school for ongoing education, or workshops or whatever - all on my own dime and time) I get a week off for Spring break, 3 days for Thanksgiving, 2 weeks for Christmas, and 2 days for Fall Break. I get paid for 9 months work, not a full year, but get my checks spread out through the year. I'll be honest - I need the time to decompress so I can deal with all the problems kids bring into class every single day. It's part of the job. However, think about this. Get rid of the teachers since that's what you want. See how long it works. Then get back to me. Believe it or not, we need teachers, and we need teachers who love to teach.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:25 AM #96
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Originally Posted by vikingshadow

I'm required to get to work by 7:30 (school starts at 7:45). I get a 20 minute planning period during the day and 30 minutes lunch IF I don't have lunch duty that week (which I do this week). Last night I got home at 6:30 because I had to stay and write up IRPs and get ready for next week's Literacy First testing that will take up at least three days of time which should be used teaching. Then, I still brought papers home to grade last night. Typically, I spend 2 hours after school is out working (I actually prefer to work to 5:00 as I spent several years in the non-teaching world before I started teaching.) That is if we aren't having one of our many meetings the district requires us to have. I'd say I put in well over 50 hours a week easily - the only day I refuse to work on school stuff is Saturday - that day is for my family. Sunday, I grade papers, make copies, write lesson plans and set up projects, etc. in my classroom for the next week.

Our district starts at 27,000 with 0 years experience. I've been teaching 11 years and make just over 34,000 per year. Our highest step is a little under 46,000 per year. I'm also not a member of NEA or OEA (the union available to us) but they are a collective bargaining union here so for whatever that's worth, what they negotiate are terms of employment - not usually teacher salary - and I get the benefits of that. I do belong to Professional Oklahoma Educators, which is a union but not a bargaining union within the district and they ONLY deal with education, not like NEA/OEA does.

You guys keep saying teachers want more money. Who doesn't? But we hardly EVER bring it up. Look who brings up teacher pay most often - I promise you it isn't teachers! We knew what we were getting into when we chose this path. Instead, we ask for more planning time to prepare better lessons, less meetings, less duty (ie lunch duty, recess duty, before and after school duty, etc) - basically things that take us from doing what we were hired to do. You do realize that a lot of times our hands are tied as far as what and how we can teach, right? We're told, by our principals, our superintendents, our legislators AND our state superintendents what we have to teach and how they want us to do it. Blaming whats wrong with education on the teachers is like blaming the doctor for you being sick.

I'll say this - as screwed up as it is, I love my job. It's not easy, it's stressful, it's extremely difficult and we're under attack most every day of the school year. But, I've done other jobs and teaching, by far, has been the most enjoyable experience I've had - and one of the hardest jobs I've had.

I stay out of these conversations as a rule, because most of you seem to have "poor pity me, I had ****ty teachers so the whole system sucks" syndrome. In fact, I won't participate any further than this, because unless you've actually taught, you have NO idea how it really is in a classroom. Most of you aren't even PARENTS so you really don't have a clue what it's like to deal with children. Your point of view has strictly been from the student desk - which hardly shows you what goes on behind the scenes. So, I won't be suckered into this discussion, because no matter how logical teachers are, no matter the evidence we provide, you don't want to hear it.

I'll close with this, though. As far as all the "time we get off", you do realize teachers are the ones pushing for longer school years, right? Most of us agree that students lose a lot of what we taught over the summer. Yes, I get summers off (when I'm not in school for ongoing education, or workshops or whatever - all on my own dime and time) I get a week off for Spring break, 3 days for Thanksgiving, 2 weeks for Christmas, and 2 days for Fall Break. I get paid for 9 months work, not a full year, but get my checks spread out through the year. I'll be honest - I need the time to decompress so I can deal with all the problems kids bring into class every single day. It's part of the job. However, think about this. Get rid of the teachers since that's what you want. See how long it works. Then get back to me. Believe it or not, we need teachers, and we need teachers who love to teach.
I just wanted to quote that and let it stand as is. Well said.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:35 AM #97
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11 years in and making $34,000 per year? Assuming 0.75 FTE and a 40 hour week that's ~$21/hour. Money grubbing bastard, it's not like McDonalds pays managers get paid better than that.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:26 AM #98
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6.5 hr day? Seriously?! My day starts at 7:30 with a 35 min lunch 45 min planning time and goes on to 3:30...officially. I put in at least 1 to 1.5 hrs after school and another hour or so after my kids go to bed.

The district I work for starts @ 44,455 with 0 years experience to 61,550 with 25 yrs and a phd.
I live in ma. The average teacher salary for my town, according to the department of Ed, is 72 k the last time I checked. You get out of the starting bracket very quickly. You can also take one of those joke summer masters programs easily up your pay. Then throw in the benefit that we couldn't fire one even though she had been coming to school drunk for years. We finally started the process of getting rid of her this year after she got 2 DWIs in a month the union cult couldn't protect her after that... Even though other teachers still defend her. It's for the children.

My kids are in school from 8:15 to 2:30. Our town's contract allows for an hour of in-school prep time, in addition to "duty free lunch and breaks" so there is no need for them to work outside of school hours. If they host an Afterschool club they are paid extra for that. Any meetings with parents about IEP are to be conducted during school hours only. Daily subs are arranged for these meetings. It's in the contract that teachers should be in school 5min before and 5min after the school day. After school help sessions can be no more than 1 hour per week.

Like i said its a pretty sweet deal. They make plenty now and more than lots of people with college degrees working more hours per day and all summer. For me to take them seriously, they need to stop whining about it like they're doing some sort of favor to society by giving up their life to go to work. I hear that all the time from teachers. I feel worse for the day care girls (who went to college too) that get paid barely minimum wage to wipe butts all day.

My wife's mom was head of the school board for a small nh town in the 90s. She has the best teachers union stories. You can't make some of them up. She called them "The Cult". Long story short, her tires were slashed more than once during that term.

There are good teachers, and bad ones. The union spends too much time protecting the bad ones.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:43 AM #99
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One of you teachers, help me make this IMI before I shoot myself in the face.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:32 PM #100
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Originally Posted by vikingshadow View Post
You guys keep saying teachers want more money. Who doesn't? But we hardly EVER bring it up. Look who brings up teacher pay most often - I promise you it isn't teachers! We knew what we were getting into when we chose this path. Instead, we ask for more planning time to prepare better lessons, less meetings, less duty (ie lunch duty, recess duty, before and after school duty, etc) - basically things that take us from doing what we were hired to do. You do realize that a lot of times our hands are tied as far as what and how we can teach, right? We're told, by our principals, our superintendents, our legislators AND our state superintendents what we have to teach and how they want us to do it. Blaming whats wrong with education on the teachers is like blaming the doctor for you being sick.
This is perfect. That is the scenario I was trying to explain.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:31 PM #101
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One of you teachers, help me make this IMI before I shoot myself in the face.
IMI? Look in the manual...
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:13 PM #102
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No. I understand it quite well. I could simply use your word and it still means the same... The teachers' union does nothing to take care of it's members.
Now you're just trying to be argumentative. Nothing you have said supports this case.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:32 PM #103
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Now you're just trying to be argumentative. Nothing you have said supports this case.
That statement was just a stab to try to get the thread back on topic... nothing I have said really has much to do with unions since my initial statement that teachers' unions are a joke. It is cute though how that's all you chose to address. More directly on the union topic, I will say that a problem I see in education that is directly related to teachers is that "tenured" teachers that are not financially able to retire stay on and leech the system. They are not required to have any continuing education and IMO have grown stagnant. The teachers' union makes it very difficult for a district to get rid of them. All the while, the teachers in the 3-5 year range that have adequate classroom experience, more educational foundation, etc are the ones that are let go first as a result of budget cuts. The statement you took out of context to start your trolling campaign also alluded to the fact that their is no "works-based promotion" and that falls in line. The union is doing more to hurt it's members than it is to help them unless they're tenured.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:33 PM #104
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The union is doing more to hurt it's members than it is to help them unless they're tenured.
Tenured members are members too. More important ones at that.

You did hit the nail on the head however, though don't seem to realize it, when you said that many teachers can't afford to retire, which would open up permanent spots for the next generation of teachers.

This is why cutting retirement benefits only makes problems worse for the economy, and why raising social security age thresholds has damaged the job market.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:53 PM #105
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This is why cutting retirement benefits only makes problems worse for the economy, and why raising social security age thresholds has damaged the job market.
I mean it has to be one or the other. Social security is not solvent. We either need to put more money in or stop giving as much out. We don't live in a magical world where we can keep the benefits without paying for them.


Unlike the government I like to know where my money is coming from before I spend it, not the other way around.
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