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View Poll Results: As a whole, are unions needed?
Yes 32 40.00%
No 48 60.00%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-27-2012, 08:07 AM #64
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Sorry, my teaching experience differs. I've had to be the subject matter expert for everything associated with a system, and then teach something I barely touched many years prior. The lesson plan along with resources, preparation prior to class, and instructional delivery fundamentals allowed me to do that. If I got a question I couldn't answer, I dug through the resources during a break and got back to the student/class with the most correct answer later.

I'm not saying his example was wrong, I'm saying if the organizational machine works you don't really need that service to be provided.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:11 AM #65
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Barrel, I don't see how you can compare training grown adults how to operate systems to teaching 30+ 8 year olds how to multiply two numbers.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:20 AM #66
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Teachers unions are ridiculous. By their logic: tenure > all other qualifications.

Unions are passed their usefulness in most industries. Grievances and/or the threat of them are counterproductive and eventually I think most companies will push back. It is about leverage and this is an employers market... there is a large enough workforce to replace anyone in a union.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:26 AM #67
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Barrel, I don't see how you can compare training grown adults how to operate systems to teaching 30+ 8 year olds how to multiply two numbers.
You'd be surprised. Many of the grown adults I've taught were still children.
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Last edited by barrel roll : 11-27-2012 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:48 AM #68
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You'd be surprised. Many of the grown adults I've taught were still children.
I don't doubt that but you're building off of the foundations built by multiple teachers, not pouring them.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:17 AM #69
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Funny you say that. An ex-coworker of mine did after he was laid off for poor performance. He was really lazy, watched movies at his desk, came to work hungover etc. In hindsight I think he was trying to be on the list. He took the layoff package and took the crash course certification the state was offering for industry scientists to become teachers. He's been teaching for a few years now and says it's the easiest job he's ever had. He's also happy he has more time to play in his band.

He temps over the summer running mass specs to make a little extra cash, but doesn't really need it.

I'd have different plans for the summer.
So that is what you aspire to be in the feild of education? Again, good luck with that. I guess you could just get by and have it be the 'easiest job,' but then thats part of the problem in education.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:22 AM #70
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A good teacher, with a good lesson plan, doesn't need to be a subject matter expert. That is what references are for.
Wow, looks like my life long dream of becoming a flight instructor have not been dashed. I'll go apply next week.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:31 AM #71
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Sorry, my teaching experience differs. I've had to be the subject matter expert for everything associated with a system, and then teach something I barely touched many years prior. The lesson plan along with resources, preparation prior to class, and instructional delivery fundamentals allowed me to do that. If I got a question I couldn't answer, I dug through the resources during a break and got back to the student/class with the most correct answer later.

I'm not saying his example was wrong, I'm saying if the organizational machine works you don't really need that service to be provided.
Yes and no. My view is this:

Knowledge + Experience = Expert

In my case, I had the knowledge and experience with a specific population/age group was told to not just to teach to a different age group, but a subject I was not even certified to teach. That would have been detrimental not only to the population that I already had the knowledge/expertice in but also to the students in the subject I had no clue where to start with and approach. I said 'no', fought it, took it to due process and won (in the state of Texas no less), because it was an obvious stupid move to make.

Sorry for my snark in my previous post...
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:40 PM #72
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S'ok homie.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:23 AM #73
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So that is what you aspire to be in the feild of education? Again, good luck with that. I guess you could just get by and have it be the 'easiest job,' but then thats part of the problem in education.
Actually I was responding to your complaint that teachers are underfunded. I used his example because he was an industry scientist at an evil drug company that ended up making roughly the same as a teacher. His change came with the added bonus of having summers off and more time to play in his band at night.

I ask again, what's the hourly rate for a teacher? Assume summers off and a 6.5 hr day. If you want to get more complicated add in vacation weeks and all the random days off.

I really don't care that teachers are paid so much. I just want them to stop whining about it. It's a job like any other. Many teachers look at it like they're doing some sort of favor to everyone else. The numbers free enterprise put up (I don't know if you block him) were pretty close to reality in my state. 75k isn't bad.

My general point is that The union has worked out a pretty good deal for payment... And that doesn't even include retirement benefits. Non union charter school and private school teachers make far less. The day care teachers, who work much harder than anyone, make almost nothing. If you made what they make, I'd feel bad for you. I've never heard them complain to me. I'm sure they ***** to each other on lunch break though. Who doesn't ***** about work over lunch?
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:16 AM #74
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Where do you live that a starting teacher salary is anything close to $75k? Even with a PhD you're looking at topping out at about $65k in all but 9 of Florida's 67 counties. $47k is the highest starting wage for a PhD and if you only have a bachelors you better get the lube ready.

Either your evil drug company is broke or you live in one of the richest areas of the US.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:12 AM #75
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Actually I was responding to your complaint that teachers are underfunded. I used his example because he was an industry scientist at an evil drug company that ended up making roughly the same as a teacher. His change came with the added bonus of having summers off and more time to play in his band at night.

I ask again, what's the hourly rate for a teacher? Assume summers off and a 6.5 hr day. If you want to get more complicated add in vacation weeks and all the random days off.

I really don't care that teachers are paid so much. I just want them to stop whining about it. It's a job like any other. Many teachers look at it like they're doing some sort of favor to everyone else. The numbers free enterprise put up (I don't know if you block him) were pretty close to reality in my state. 75k isn't bad.

My general point is that The union has worked out a pretty good deal for payment... And that doesn't even include retirement benefits. Non union charter school and private school teachers make far less. The day care teachers, who work much harder than anyone, make almost nothing. If you made what they make, I'd feel bad for you. I've never heard them complain to me. I'm sure they ***** to each other on lunch break though. Who doesn't ***** about work over lunch?
You have no idea what you're talking about... How about we actually make our assumptions based on reality?

7:45am - 4pm (30min lunch): 7.8hrs
Grading papers (nightly min): 1 hr
Extra curricular activity, parent conferences, etc.: 3 hrs week (conservative)

Right there they're close to 50hrs a week then you add in continuing education hours, the un-reimbursed supplies they buy, the fact that they are ACTUALLY ONLY PAID BASED ON THE MONTHS THEY WORK but can choose to spread that payment over a 12-month period and that they deal with little brat kids all day.

You honestly have no clue what you're even talking about... I get paid double what most teachers make, I work very little overtime, I have superior benefits (including heathcare and retirement), have more time off and don't deal with ignorant parents and bratty kids all day.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:45 AM #76
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Don't bring up "unreimbursed supplies". They don't need them to do the job, otherwise they would either be supplied like all other government jobs OR reimbursed.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:52 AM #77
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I hope you don't really believe that. You need to read up on what the government doesn't deem necessary in your eyes.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:55 AM #78
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If it is a required resource, and not supplied, then the school administration and local board of education isn't doing it's job.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:00 AM #79
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If it is a required resource, and not supplied, then the school administration and local board of education isn't doing it's job.
Or it simply lacks funding. See what people don't know is that almost all money comes to the districts in the form of grants. All that money is earmarked. Money for necessities is supposed to come from the local tax base, but very seldom do the small districts have enough even for the most basic supplies such as pencil sharpeners, etc. Also, they mandate teaching methods (CSCOPE) that require materials that are not covered.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:00 AM #80
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If your budget had been cut what are they supposed to do? Fire teachers and ship kids to a richer school?
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:20 AM #81
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Funny you say it, but in Texas when budgets get cut it typically means that the state government grants are reduced. Districts with a wealthier tax base don't really rely on grants so it does very little to them. Intercity schools and small districts are the ones that are crippled by this, yet ideas such as the "Robin-hood plan" and a state lottery (which goes into the general fund and is supposed to be allocated to education) never seem to make their way to the poor schools.

Now look at it from another perspective where poorer schools also typically have more need for year-round lunches (for kids who don't eat at home), for special education (a whole different can of worms) and other unfunded/ minimally funded programs.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:23 AM #82
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Texas, only the finest educational system.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:53 AM #83
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"Critical thinking skills" says hello.
http://truth-out.org/news/item/10144...public-schools
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:54 AM #84
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Well... yea. If you don't have enough money for required resources, then you don't get those resources. If you don't have the resources, you can't effectively teach. So why bother letting your subordinates do a half assed job?

Again, that is an administration level problem.


Looking up Higher Order Thinking Skills and Outcome-based Education right now. I need to take a freaking brake from this IMI development, anyway.

I'm kind of ok with that. I believe that it is my job as a parent to prepare my children for the world. So, I would ultimately be responsible for their critical thinking skills... amongst other things.

I also reject Dewey.
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Last edited by barrel roll : 11-28-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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