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View Poll Results: As a whole, are unions needed?
Yes 32 40.00%
No 48 60.00%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-26-2012, 05:03 PM #43
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I am a member of a teacher's union and it has served me well. I would be teaching out of my content/certification area if it weren't for the legal representation of my union.
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:09 PM #44
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Long story short, he treated his employees absolutely fantastic and there was no union at FoMoCo. He was a union buster, I believe the term is.
And ended up violently attacking union members, got in trouble with the government, and was about to break up the company to spite unions when his wife talked some sense into him. They unionized and became the fairest union operation.

Today Ford is arguably the strongest automaker, rather than dead since 1941. Good thing Ford didn't **** everything up with his anti-union idiocy.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:54 PM #45
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
This article bases its assertions on 56 hours of overtime a week, nonstop, year-round, no vacations? Or charitably, 16-hour days, year-round? This didn't set off alarm bells with you?
The whole point is he is a "relief" crane operator sitting there for 16 hours a day getting paid whether or not he does anything.

And no it does not set off any alarm bells. I am sure cranes are operating 16 hours per day which means there are 16 hours of "relief" crane operators. That is 32 hours of crane operators per day which is 160 hours billed per week for 80 hours of real work.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:15 PM #46
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
The whole point is he is a "relief" crane operator sitting there for 16 hours a day getting paid whether or not he does anything.
Suck it up son, that's the price of specialized labor. Union workers aren't the only one's pulling this kind of stuff, but they seem to be the ones who receive the most scorn for it.

Attorneys bill by the fraction of the hour, and guess what? A 30 second phone call can be upwards of 1/6 a billable hour of work, and there's not a whole hell of a lot anyone can do about it. Same goes for doctors, accountants and a whole slew of other licensed professionals. If you want to be pissed about labor unions forcing people to pay them for time not actually working, cool. But at least you could be even-handed about it.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:22 PM #47
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Originally Posted by StellarKnight View Post
Suck it up son, that's the price of specialized labor. Union workers aren't the only one's pulling this kind of stuff, but they seem to be the ones who receive the most scorn for it.

Attorneys bill by the fraction of the hour, and guess what? A 30 second phone call can be upwards of 1/6 a billable hour of work, and there's not a whole hell of a lot anyone can do about it. Same goes for doctors, accountants and a whole slew of other licensed professionals. If you want to be pissed about labor unions forcing people to pay them for time not actually working, cool. But at least you could be even-handed about it.
The difference is there is the option to switch providers if you are not happy or think you can get it cheaper. When you are dealing with a union it is a living hell to get out of the contract.

I do not think unions are terrible. I think they have a place as long as they don't use their bargaining power just because they can. The main thing I have an issue with is people complaining they aren't getting paid enough when they are in a union/job that can be done by virtually anyone. Then they use unions to get better wages which are artificially higher than the market would normally demand.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:23 PM #48
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lol at the notion that it is well funded...
How much does the average teacher make per hour again?

It's a pretty sweet deal in my state. If I get laid off i'm totally going into it. I just need time to get the cert and I can't do that while working. I'll get paid roughly the same with summers off.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:34 PM #49
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
The difference is there is the option to switch providers if you are not happy or think you can get it cheaper. When you are dealing with a union it is a living hell to get out of the contract.
Not nearly as fluid as you make it out to be. I can't speak for the medical community, but I know that bar associations and accountancy associations often establish minimum hourly rates to be billed as a means of self-policing. Couple that with the fact that your licensing authorities disallow out of state licenses to practice, and your pool of market alternatives gets pretty shallow.

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The main thing I have an issue with is people complaining they aren't getting paid enough when they are in a union/job that can be done by virtually anyone.
And this is the part I find the most contemptible with the whole anti-union movement: you want to portray union workers as lazy, stupid *******s. How about you hop in a ****ing crane and move tons building materials in the concrete jungle of NYC, then tell us all how it can be done by "virtually anyone." Not having a diploma on your wall doesn't mean you haven't devoted a considerable portion of your life to the ability your job requires.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:48 PM #50
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Originally Posted by StellarKnight View Post
Not nearly as fluid as you make it out to be. I can't speak for the medical community, but I know that bar associations and accountancy associations often establish minimum hourly rates to be billed as a means of self-policing. Couple that with the fact that your licensing authorities disallow out of state licenses to practice, and your pool of market alternatives gets pretty shallow.



And this is the part I find the most contemptible with the whole anti-union movement: you want to portray union workers as lazy, stupid <del>*******</del>s. How about you hop in a <del>****</del>ing crane and move tons building materials in the concrete jungle of NYC, then tell us all how it can be done by "virtually anyone." Not having a diploma on your wall doesn't mean you haven't devoted a considerable portion of your life to the ability your job requires.
I did not make it clear but I was not referring to the crane operators in that statement. I was referring to the "Bun Handler" in the hostess article and other similar positions. I obviously realize operating a crane is no joke, especially in a city.

I work in public accounting and I have never heard of any regulations on how much a CPA must charge.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:09 PM #51
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Or make a union unnecessary. Unions are reactionary in nature. Remove the exploitation will disincentive people staying in unions.
Semantics. Undesirable = unnecessary in this context.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:36 PM #52
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Semantics. Undesirable = unnecessary in this context.
I wasn't disagreeing, just extending on your point. They are not the same thing; although the distinction is subtle. We are largely on the same page.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:36 PM #53
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Originally Posted by scienceguy

How much does the average teacher make per hour again?

It's a pretty sweet deal in my state. If I get laid off i'm totally going into it. I just need time to get the cert and I can't do that while working. I'll get paid roughly the same with summers off.
You go ahead and do that. Let me know how it goes for you 2-3 years from whenever It is you decide to start.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:47 PM #54
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And this is the part I find the most contemptible with the whole anti-union movement: you want to portray union workers as lazy, stupid *******s. How about you hop in a ****ing crane and move tons building materials in the concrete jungle of NYC, then tell us all how it can be done by "virtually anyone." Not having a diploma on your wall doesn't mean you haven't devoted a considerable portion of your life to the ability your job requires.
In my reading on crane operators I learned that they are basically liable for any problem with the crane or error in operation, which basically at most times involves risk to other peoples' lives or the operator's own.

As for other so-called "anyone can do it" jobs, there's nothing wrong with being paid a living wage for a full-time job. Whatever (legitimate job) you do for a living, you ought to be able to make a living.

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You go ahead and do that. Let me know how it goes for you 2-3 years from whenever It is you decide to start.
Round these parts you need a master's. No wonder some school systems are teh suck.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:02 PM #55
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'round here you need 18 credit hours of upper undergrad in a subject area and a degree period to teach in a subject area. Scary thought but really explains all of the teachers out of area and the demise of our education system. Don't up the standards and increase pay, lower them to compensate for the lack of trained individuals caused by the low pay.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:10 PM #56
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
In my reading on crane operators I learned that they are basically liable for any problem with the crane or error in operation, which basically at most times involves risk to other peoples' lives or the operator's own.

As for other so-called "anyone can do it" jobs, there's nothing wrong with being paid a living wage for a full-time job. Whatever (legitimate job) you do for a living, you ought to be able to make a living.



Round these parts you need a master's. No wonder some school systems are teh suck.
In my opinion if you are doing a job that requires the minimum skills don't be surprised if you are earning minimum wage/are easily replaceable. If you don't think it pays well enough (assuming it is paying the lawful minimum wage) then tell that to the millions of unemployed people that would take it.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:53 PM #57
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...minimum of a bachelors in texas... masters is 2k per year more, 2k more than that per year for a phd (my district anyway).
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:30 AM #58
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In my opinion if you are doing a job that requires the minimum skills don't be surprised if you are earning minimum wage/are easily replaceable. If you don't think it pays well enough (assuming it is paying the lawful minimum wage) then tell that to the millions of unemployed people that would take it.
You are basically saying that we should pay people below living wage because other people live farther below that wage. That's like saying you shouldn't feed hungry people because of starving people.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:32 AM #59
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Remember when minimum wage used to get you everything you needed?

Inflated dollars plus inflated needs equals spoiled and deprived.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:01 AM #60
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You go ahead and do that. Let me know how it goes for you 2-3 years from whenever It is you decide to start.
Funny you say that. An ex-coworker of mine did after he was laid off for poor performance. He was really lazy, watched movies at his desk, came to work hungover etc. In hindsight I think he was trying to be on the list. He took the layoff package and took the crash course certification the state was offering for industry scientists to become teachers. He's been teaching for a few years now and says it's the easiest job he's ever had. He's also happy he has more time to play in his band.

He temps over the summer running mass specs to make a little extra cash, but doesn't really need it.

I'd have different plans for the summer.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:13 AM #61
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Remember when minimum wage used to get you everything you needed?

Inflated dollars plus inflated needs equals spoiled and deprived.
Or it's just good old fashion wage repression and income disparity.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:16 AM #62
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I am a member of a teacher's union and it has served me well. I would be teaching out of my content/certification area if it weren't for the legal representation of my union.
A good teacher, with a good lesson plan, doesn't need to be a subject matter expert. That is what references are for.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:23 AM #63
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A good teacher, with a good lesson plan, doesn't need to be a subject matter expert. That is what references are for.
I don't think you would want me teaching Spanish any more than you would want one of those elementary Ed majors teaching calculus.

I think the system works best when People teach what they know.

Edit: I think his was a good example of unions working in the best interest of the product. There are lots of other examples where they don't.

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