Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

View Poll Results: As a whole, are unions needed?
Yes 32 40.00%
No 48 60.00%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-25-2012, 11:43 PM #22
Cromagnum Tankerman
Cromagnum Tank Commander
 
Cromagnum Tankerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Martinsburg WV
Unions

I think Unions as a whole are what keeping this country together. However they have also have been so demanding which as in many case caused numerous companies to go out of country to survive. I used to work in the govt and dealt with contractors and Unions. Sometimes dealing with Unions has to much red tape. Recently I heard on the news where utility companies from the South went north to help out in many areas that were destroyed by Hurricane Sandy. The news indicated these companies were turned away because they were not union.
Cromagnum Tankerman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 11-26-2012, 12:22 AM #23
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cromagnum Tankerman View Post
Recently I heard on the news where utility companies from the South went north to help out in many areas that were destroyed by Hurricane Sandy. The news indicated these companies were turned away because they were not union.
Not true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Lets look at the facts:
-Bama crew goes to help Seaside Heigts, Nj
-While in staging area, they get pulled back home because some paperwork they received looked like it said their dudes would have to pay union dues to work in Jersey
-Local news says the Bama crew was turned away
-Bama company thinks paperwork came from union, not sure
-Union says not them, but they will in instigate regardless
-Finds out paperwork came from ECA (not the company that employs these workers)
-Union says they have long standing agreement during casualties, where nonunion workers can work in the closed shop known as NJ
-Bama crewgoes to Staten Island to work
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...ghlight=unions
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 12:41 AM #24
benji25
Legen (wait for it) Dary
 
benji25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Twin Cities
benji25 is a Moderator
benji25 donated to help Peyton Trent
benji25 is playing at Living Legends V
benji25 posts videos on PbNation
benji25 supports our troops
benji25 has perfected Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
I don't think unions are needed. I fully support a free market where supply and demand for jobs is the driving force in the economy. If you don't like where you work, get the hell out of it because there are most likely 6,000 other people that are skilled enough for your job. I hate when unions lead to bloated contracts and benefits just because they can say "give it to us or deal with a strike" which leads to higher costs for work that doesn't deserve it.

Quote:
A crane operator in New York City earns $82.15 an hour in base pay and benefits, according to the Engineer News-Record, a trade publication. That's well's above the $66 an hour he would earn in Chicago or the $39 an hour in Washington, D.C.

But the real reason New York crane operators and other operating engineers earn such big salaries is overtime and benefits. A relief crane operator working 56 hours of overtime per week for 52 weeks will earn $332,667 in overtime and $159,053 in overtime benefits at the World Trade Center. As a worker's salaries go up, so do the amounts employers must kick in for annuities and pensions.

The Real Estate Board there are currently 14 unproductive workers at the World Trade Center earning $400,000 or more in regular pay and overtime.

To be sure, many workers don't work for 52 weeks works straight while logging 56 hour of overtime a week. But many workers are on site close to year round while working 16-hour days.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...008284024.html

I have been trying to verify a statement that a colleague of mine made about the crane operators. Something that if they get called to the site only for one lift that takes 30 minutes, they must be paid for a full 8 hours. I have not found any documentation on it but he works at construction sites in new york so he is somewhat close to the matter.
benji25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 01:57 AM #25
licence2kill
POOP
 
licence2kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Orange County
unions are part of that market, benji.
licence2kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 06:35 AM #26
Animal_Mother (Banned)
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Danger Close
Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
From the article:

A relief crane operator working 56 hours of overtime per week for 52 weeks will earn $332,667 in overtime and $159,053 in overtime benefits at the World Trade Center.


I don't see the problem here. If a guy can work 14hr days everyday for a year straight he deserves and has rightfully earned a ****load of money. Just think of how much $$$ he's putting into our ****bag government in taxes.
Animal_Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 08:40 AM #27
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Unions have a purpose. When a union gets big enough to become another bureaucracy, they are a hindrance to everyone. Government unions are an abomination.
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 09:25 AM #28
chodeyg
sprezzatura
 
chodeyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: via lactea
Quote:
Originally Posted by rT159 View Post
When unions get greedy, good people suffer. Forget the teachers, look how bad the refs are for the NFL.
Do you have any clue the kind of money those sports team owners make? It's unspeakable. Talk about wants vs needs.
__________________
Resurrect dead on planet Jupiter
chodeyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 10:57 AM #29
drgonzo
Half-cocked
 
drgonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
Quote:
A relief crane operator working 56 hours of overtime per week for 52 weeks will earn $332,667 in overtime and $159,053 in overtime benefits at the World Trade Center.

...

To be sure, many workers don't work for 52 weeks works straight while logging 56 hour of overtime a week. But many workers are on site close to year round while working 16-hour days.
This article bases its assertions on 56 hours of overtime a week, nonstop, year-round, no vacations? Or charitably, 16-hour days, year-round? This didn't set off alarm bells with you?
__________________
PUMPPB.COM - Pump paintball forums
HawaiiPB.com - Paintball forums for the state of Hawaii
HawaiiPB/PumpPB - Our videos | Droidtiles.com - NFC Tags for Android and mobile devices

Last edited by drgonzo : 11-26-2012 at 11:00 AM.
drgonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 11:05 AM #30
Tafari Makonnen
His Imperial Majesty
 
Tafari Makonnen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Addis Ababa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal_Mother View Post
I don't see the problem here. If a guy can work 14hr days everyday for a year straight he deserves and has rightfully earned a ****load of money. Just think of how much $$$ he's putting into our ****bag government in taxes.
But what if he is a minority crane operator?!?
__________________
Magen VeLo Yera'e

Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph.
Tafari Makonnen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 11:09 AM #31
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
This article bases its assertions on 56 hours of overtime a week, nonstop, year-round, no vacations? Or charitably, 16-hour days, year-round? This didn't set off alarm bells with you?
No one talked about double time? For shame, double-time rocks. You know... for those few months that I was an hourly employee...

Then again... there is a max time limit per week or day or something like that for crane operators. I think that is federal law, though.
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 11:12 AM #32
StellarKnight
Mind Erasure
 
StellarKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Lost...In a Lost World
StellarKnight is a Supporting Member
StellarKnight is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
StellarKnight has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tafari Makonnen View Post
But what if he is a minority crane operator?!?
Affirmative action craning
__________________
Evil presupposes a moral decision, intention, and some forethought. A moron doesn't stop to think or reason. He acts on instinct, like a stable animal, convinced he's doing good, that he's always right, and sanctimoniously proud to go around ****ing up . . .What the world needs is more thoroughly evil people and fewer idiot ****heads.
StellarKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 11:16 AM #33
drgonzo
Half-cocked
 
drgonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
No one talked about double time? For shame, double-time rocks. You know... for those few months that I was an hourly employee...

Then again... there is a max time limit per week or day or something like that for crane operators. I think that is federal law, though.
Yep, double time rocks. Effective triple time (holiday pay) is even better. However I'm not sure if you're trying to say that the 56 hours is straight-time equivalent, but they definitely mean 56 working hours of OT. So 96 hours a week working. Nonstop. All year.

Crane operating in a union is a lucrative profession (and why not, it's literally building the American economy), but it's not THAT lucrative. You might work massive OT like that for spans of time but most likely not all year, every year. And if you did, I can't say you shouldn't be paid handsomely, that's literally making work your life.
__________________
PUMPPB.COM - Pump paintball forums
HawaiiPB.com - Paintball forums for the state of Hawaii
HawaiiPB/PumpPB - Our videos | Droidtiles.com - NFC Tags for Android and mobile devices

Last edited by drgonzo : 11-26-2012 at 11:18 AM.
drgonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 02:24 PM #34
Bloodeagle
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
The question is irrelevant. People have a right to organize into unions. If they feel it is in their best interests to do so, they should be able to do so. It is up to employers to provide conditions that make a union undesirable.
Bloodeagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 02:31 PM #35
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodeagle View Post
It is up to employers to provide conditions that make a union undesirable.
Or make a union unnecessary. Unions are reactionary in nature. Remove the exploitation will disincentive people staying in unions.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 02:40 PM #36
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Or make a union unnecessary. Unions are reactionary in nature. Remove the exploitation will disincentive people staying in unions.
Like Mr Ford did?
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 03:24 PM #37
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Like Mr Ford did?
I don't know enough about Henry Ford (or really anything) to get this. Care to explain?
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 04:39 PM #38
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post

I don't know enough about Henry Ford (or really anything) to get this. Care to explain?
Long story short, he treated his employees absolutely fantastic and there was no union at FoMoCo. He was a union buster, I believe the term is.
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 04:46 PM #39
chodeyg
sprezzatura
 
chodeyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: via lactea
Indeed and there are also great auto manufacturers today that hire exclusively non union employees, they give great quality work and receive fair pay and benefits.

However you can't forget the competition from unions forcing companies to give greater pay and better hours to keep employees from joining unions. Just a thought.
__________________
Resurrect dead on planet Jupiter
chodeyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 05:34 PM #40
Peppermint
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Private unions have been in decline due to workers finding less need for them. Additionally, as with the case with Hostess Cup Cakes last week, private unions can help contribute to firms going out of business.

Public union or government unions should not be allowed in my opinion. They are the unions that have been growing though. Thought economist Thomas Sowell had a nice article recently explaining why that is the case.

"Unions Kill The Goose That Made Hostess Brands Gold"

From his article:

Quote:
...There is a reason why there was a major decline in the proportion of private-sector employees who joined unions. It was not just the number of union workers who ended up losing their jobs. Other workers saw the handwriting on the wall and refused to join unions.
There is also a reason why labor unions are flourishing among people who work for government. No matter how much these public-sector unions drive up costs, government agencies do not go out of business. They simply go back to the taxpayers for more money.
Consumers in the private sector have the option of buying products and services from competing, nonunion companies — from Toyota instead of General Motors, for example, even though most Toyotas sold in America are made in America. Consumers of other products can buy things made in nonunion factories overseas.
But government agencies are monopolies. You cannot get your Social Security checks from anywhere except the Social Security Administration or your driver's license from anywhere but the DMV.
Is it surprising that government employees have seen their pay go up, even during the downturn, and their pensions rise to levels undreamed of in the private sector?
None of this will kill the goose that lays the golden egg, so long as there are both current taxpayers and future taxpayers to pay off debts passed on to them.

Read More At IBD: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editor...#ixzz2DN2uf5I1
Peppermint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 05:55 PM #41
marcozombie
 
 
marcozombie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tejas!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal_Mother View Post
lol at the notion of us NOT funding education already
lol at the notion that it is well funded...
__________________
I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.]-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799http://abaddoncomic.com/
marcozombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 06:01 PM #42
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Long story short, he treated his employees absolutely fantastic and there was no union at FoMoCo. He was a union buster, I believe the term is.
So we agree? Unions are reactionary. By treating workers well, you remove the union's entire purpose of existence (and in doing so the union will probably be "busted" due to irrelevance).
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump