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Old 09-11-2012, 05:05 PM #43
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It has nothing to do with effort or stupidity. It has to do with burden of proof. If you claim x, I could look up a study that says that, but that may or may not be the study you are referring to. It is much simpler for the person who is presenting a claim to simply just include what they are basing that claim on. For this reason, it has become expected. It's how our society has decided to do things. Fall in line or look dumb. Your choice.
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:16 PM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
Makes him look like a lazy party-line toting liberal who doesn't care to understand all the facts when he continually asks for sources on things that are easily verifiable. I don't blame murph for calling him out on it.
This says teacher's salaries are $71k.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/chica...7#.UE-3To0iaK8

This says $74k.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/10/us/ill...ike/index.html

This says $74k and $56k.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...teachers-make/

This says $59k

http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Teach...icago,-IL.html

This says $76k.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...ons-john-fund#

The point is my article isn't the article always the article you're quoting and I'd like to see all available information before I snap to a decision. /shrug

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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
It has nothing to do with effort or stupidity. It has to do with burden of proof. If you claim x, I could look up a study that says that, but that may or may not be the study you are referring to. It is much simpler for the person who is presenting a claim to simply just include what they are basing that claim on. For this reason, it has become expected. It's how our society has decided to do things. Fall in line or look dumb. Your choice.
I wonder what look I'd get if I told my liberal overlords to do their own damn research and I'm not citing **** in my papers.
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:55 PM #45
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Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
This says teacher's salaries are $71k.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/chica...7#.UE-3To0iaK8

This says $74k.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/10/us/ill...ike/index.html

This says $74k and $56k.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...teachers-make/

This says $59k

http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Teach...icago,-IL.html

This says $76k.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...ons-john-fund#

The point is my article isn't the article always the article you're quoting and I'd like to see all available information before I snap to a decision. /shrug



I wonder what look I'd get if I told my liberal overlords to do their own damn research and I'm not citing **** in my papers.
The source, Chicago Public Schools itself, says 74k. I'm pretty sure that's the definitive answer. And if you actually bothered to check out the link I posted from the beginning we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:58 PM #46
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Oh the irony, they elected Rahm and now rage against his administration. I wouldn't mind making $74K much less $59k, even if the cost of living is higher than the national average.
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Old 09-11-2012, 10:46 PM #47
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Oh the irony, they elected Rahm and now rage against his administration. I wouldn't mind making $74K much less $59k, even if the cost of living is higher than the national average.
I didn't realize all teachers voted for Rahm, and were the only people to do so.

I just hope Chicago doesn't turn into the cluster**** that is the DC Charter school system.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:31 PM #48
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[quote=Rapier7;76711945]http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2010

But there are objective means of measuring student merit. It's called standardized test scores. Teachers obviously have an affect on student performance.
/QUOTE]
There is a lot of gripes about standardized test scores not exactly being objective. The SAT doesn't prove a damn thing other than the likelihood of first semester success if I recall correctly. Same goes for many standardized tests on the federal and state levels. Believe it or not just because someone sucks at taking a test, doesn't me they are stupid or their teacher sucked.

Furthermore, tests being the only objective means (didn't see you recommend other objective means) encourages teaching to the test and encouraged cheating. Freakonomics did a report on the Chicago schools and found cheaters all over those tests, and it was the teachers doing it because they benefited from making it seem like their kids were excelling.
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From homescholed children I've met in my town I'd say he would have problematic socializing skills and had parents that were religious zelots.
Eh, some homeschoolers have networks for "field trips" where the kids socialize and do typical fun kid things. Of course there are limitations depending ont he area you live in, you're parents, and of course their are the willful ignorant parents who teach junk science and bible study.
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
It has nothing to do with effort or stupidity. It has to do with burden of proof. If you claim x, I could look up a study that says that, but that may or may not be the study you are referring to. It is much simpler for the person who is presenting a claim to simply just include what they are basing that claim on. For this reason, it has become expected. It's how our society has decided to do things. Fall in line or look dumb. Your choice.
This is reasonable. Although the OT did provide the info being discussed IIRC.
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:13 AM #49
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Merit-based teacher compensation in general is to be opposed. There is no objective means of measuring teacher merit.

These salaries aren't appalling in the least. It's sad that people have forgotten what middle-class professional salaries look like.
Are you kidding me? I admit I haven't read the chicago contract, but I bet it's similar to the city I live in. They are contracted to only work 5.5 hrs per day. They have summers and school vacations off. Then throw in the "professional development" days and half days counted as full days. They get three weeks vacation/personal days on top of that. On a per hour basis they make an incredible salary. Don't say they put in lots of time off the books. They're paid extra if they host a club etc. The contract also states that they get 2hrs in-school prep time per day.

They make a similar average salary to Chicago

A coworker of mine was fired for poor performance. While on unemployment, He took the crash course to get a teaching certificate. A year later he was teaching science at an inner city jr high. He says he makes almost as much as he did working full time as a scientist, and it's the easiest job he's ever had. He also happy he has more time to play with his band.

If I had it to do over again, I would have been a teacher. if I get laid off that will be my career change. Teachers complain so much because most have never had a job with average working hours. They don't know what normal people deal with.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for teachers being paid fairly. I just don't think teachers understand what fair is.

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Old 09-12-2012, 07:11 AM #50
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How much do the parents that homeschool get paid for their teaching job?... And if they have more than one kid, they are teaching MULTIPLE grades all at the same time...

Oh yeah, they get paid NOTHING.


How do homeschooler teachers rate when tested compared to their high paid public school teachers?

One is paid a huge sum of money, and the other works for free, we can see their results looking at their students who receive their teaching.

"Five areas of academic pursuit were measured. In reading, the average home-schooler scored at the 89th percentile; language, 84th percentile; math, 84th percentile; science, 86th percentile; and social studies, 84th percentile. In the core studies (reading, language and math), the average home-schooler scored at the 88th percentile.

The average public school student taking these standardized tests scored at the 50th percentile in each subject area."


Read more: HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests - Washington Times http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz26FxFNPTA
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

Maybe if you were homeschooled you would have been able to spell and communicate more effectively?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Fish View Post
From homescholed children I've met in my town I'd say he would have problematic socializing skills and had parents that were religious zelots.

Clearly money isn't the issue, since homeschoolers always score so much higher than their higher cost public school counterparts. Or maybe there is something to that "moral teachings" that you guys love to slander?...

Naa, it must be that "junk science"... Or something... Good old public indoctrinated secular humanism raises its ugly head yet again.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:11 AM #51
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How much do the parents that homeschool get paid for their teaching job?... And if they have more than one kid, they are teaching MULTIPLE grades all at the same time...

Oh yeah, they get paid NOTHING.


How do homeschooler teachers rate when tested compared to their high paid public school teachers?

One is paid a huge sum of money, and the other works for free, we can see their results looking at their students who receive their teaching.

"Five areas of academic pursuit were measured. In reading, the average home-schooler scored at the 89th percentile; language, 84th percentile; math, 84th percentile; science, 86th percentile; and social studies, 84th percentile. In the core studies (reading, language and math), the average home-schooler scored at the 88th percentile.

The average public school student taking these standardized tests scored at the 50th percentile in each subject area."


Read more: HOME-SCHOOLING: Outstanding results on national tests - Washington Times http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz26FxFNPTA
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

Maybe if you were homeschooled you would have been able to spell and communicate more effectively?...




Clearly money isn't the issue, since homeschoolers always score so much higher than their higher cost public school counterparts. Or maybe there is something to that "moral teachings" that you guys love to slander?...

Naa, it must be that "junk science"... Or something... Good old public indoctrinated secular humanism raises its ugly head yet again.
I think you've proven the importance of parents in this whole education scheme. Also if you calculate how much money the parent could be making instead of teaching their child you'll see that they invest far more money in their child's education. If the parents are doing well enough to live off of one income chances are they're decently educated and willing to put in the time. When's the last time you saw a single mother homeschool her children in the inner city? Hard to get around to teach when you're just trying to put food in the bellies.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:53 AM #52
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But, can they AFFORD to put their kids in public school where they will score on average 30 or more percentage points lower in every category, getting an education that at best offers little educational value?

I know plenty of single moms/dads that home school their kids... And some of them DO live in the inner city... Clearly you don't hang around homeschoolers if you didn't realize that.

"Household income had little impact on the results of home-school students: Children of parents with an income between $35,000 and $49,000 scored at the 86th percentile, whereas children of parents with an income over $70,000 scored at the 89th percentile."

http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/singlehomeschoolers/


Don't spread garbage about homeschooling if you don't know about it. We get enough grief from the public school teachers who are always ready to talk about socialization, (weird, since I got IN TROUBLE for socializing in public schools...) regardless of the fact that homeschoolers are better educated, more intelligent, and make more money on average than their public school peers.

But, hey, homeschooling is only growing at 9% per year... So you can keep chucking kids into the failing public school system and paying more each year to unions for failing results... Maybe we should change the grades from fail to pass (oh wait, they are already doing this...) so you can feel better about the mediocrity that passes as "edumukation" in schools today? Or "schols" as we have seen above.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/20090...rFriendly=True

Or maybe we can take a lesson in how public schools are now "teaching" our children... Because their results can be measured...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/op...&smid=fb-share

"At the age of 5, she was kept in a seclusion room for up to an hour at a time over the course of three months, until we discovered what was happening. The trauma was severe."
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:07 AM #53
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You know single parents who live in the inner city and homeschool their kids? How do they make money?
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:22 AM #54
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They work full time... Some work multiple jobs.

Clearly you don't know much about homeschooling, I get it, there is so much misinformation out there...

If the public schools take 7 hours to teach your kids, you can do everything they do in 3 hours or less. (minus the team activities of course)


Lets not derail this thread on homeschooling though, I was just pointing out that throwing money at the public teaching issues isn't going to "fix" anything. As homeschooling proves that with minimal investment any kid can score 30+ more percentage points in EVERY category than the average public school kid.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:05 PM #55
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Quote:
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I didn't realize all teachers voted for Rahm, and were the only people to do so.
I can't use irony in a statement about irony? He was endorsed by the Chicago Teamsters and the trade unions in the mayoral election. As an aside to the thread in general educators are the largest sector of government employees on all levels.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:14 PM #56
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What does the union mean when they say that they want teacher accountability?
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:08 AM #57
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Relax... And chicago teachers making that much money is surprising to me...
Big city teachers have always made more money. They have harder cases of students to deal with and often times larger classrooms. It's like trying to herd cats into a room full of rocking chairs half the time.

Something to consider: Look at Chicago and all the crackheads there. There are tons of crackheads living there, and the children of those people have bigger things to worry about than going home and doing homework, or going to school to "learn" - not in their list of "things that are important" day in and out. Chicago is mostly black and poor as hell. Many of them are getting free lunch that they qualify for, which taxpayers have to pay for. The joys of living in some cities - it's just a collection of homeless or near homeless who want handouts. Most vote Democratic too - keep those handouts rolling in - something Gonzo supports. Why work? Make rich people who worked for their money prop them up, right? Every single American should have to support an African child until they turn 25, right?

Chicago teachers and city teachers in general have a more difficult time than the majority of teachers in the sticks, who's biggest challenge is making back woods rednecks care about more than playing with chainsaws and silver spoon communities willing to bend on things they feel are a "grave injustice to their perfect child" many times. They need to act as a guidance counselor as well as a teacher, simultaneously, and do so with a class that can be double the size that the teachers here in NH deal with usually, the ones in Minnesota, most of Texas, Idaho, Utah, Maryland, etc. I say this who has seen (first hand) how both systems work.

Now, as far as evaluations go - the unions in Chicago are going to have to cave on those. There needs to be some evaluations, and tying it somewhat to test scores is fair. You don't lower the standards (that is what ****hole states like Mississippi do) but you still try to make those standards. Evaluations should factor in the type of class you have, and how much progress they made from the previous year. It should not be a "At 5th grade, they need to do this well" because if you get a collection of humans rocks, they there is only so much you can do. In theory that wouldn't happen if everyone does their job, but if you hire three fail teachers at the 4th grade level in a row, then it sets up said 5th grade teachers to fail as well. I see that happen all the time, and the higher level grade teacher has to spend time going over things they should of learned last year.

So, the evaluations need to be worked out, but they need to exist in some capacity. All this "I have tenure = cannot be fired, ever" nonsense sucks. Tenure should still be obtainable, but this whole not being accountable once you have it needs to be phased out. If this union won't budge on that whatsover, then can them and replace them and rebuild through the draft just like a sports team. Also - principals need a bit more power to dispose of a teacher who is utterly worthless. Unions will go to bat for teachers sprouting bible verses off during math and tell kids (age 6) they're idiots every day. THOSE people - need to go
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:38 AM #58
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YEAH, teachers unions are winning, instead of getting rid of the bad teachers, and improving their pathetic schools. The Unions were given more ability to stay in their jobs without losing their jobs for bad performance.

Good job Obama! Less educated people means more democrat voters!

http://www.suntimes.com/15101839-761...wednesday.html

"The proposal made public Wednesday would allow those teachers to stay at their jobs indefinitely, as long as their scores didn’t dramatically decline after the first poor score."

So students that on average score 50 percent (out of 100 percent) on their testing is now status quo, and acceptable for keeping your job in a public education system...

Failure is now "good enough" for public school teachers...
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:33 AM #59
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So teachers will be graded on a curve as well. How ironic.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:33 AM #60
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What does the union mean when they say that they want teacher accountability?
Basically they mean they don't want teacher accountability.
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:43 AM #61
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They should have to improve, but make it longer than a single year.

Anything that involves "not improving scores" is a failure and win for the teachers, who don't want to be evaluated. They want to get paid to babysit, not teach.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:26 PM #62
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It's over.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,7319589.story

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The contract will now be submitted to a vote by the full membership of more than 25,000 teachers over the next few weeks.

The contract offer gives teachers, on average, a 17.6 percent pay raise over the next four years, as well as retaining other salary bumps for experience and pursuing a graduate degree.

The offer also includes tougher job evaluations where teachers are rated, in part, on how well their students performed on standardized tests and, for the first time, a re-hire pool for teachers who’ve been laid off because the district closed their schools.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:05 PM #63
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The Thing I find ironic :

-teachers didn't want to be held responsible for performance because there are "too many factors in the home" that are more influential on a kids performance.
-teachers think they deserve more money after claiming the above statement

To me it is like they are claiming they are just baby sitters and then the want more money for not being responsible for their students.
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