AKA Tornado valve springing and LP ops - one more time... - PbNation
Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

 
Archived Thread - Cannot Edit  
Old 01-06-2004, 08:40 AM #1
cledford
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
AKA Tornado valve springing and LP ops - one more time...

Ok, I know I said in another thread I was dumping the Tornado for RAT3.16 based on Terry Garrett's recommendation - but... I've got to give the Tornado one more try for 2 reasons. Number one, I can't stand to let something beat me and 2 if I make a *concerted* effort to get it running correctly and it still doesn't work it's gone for good. My problem is that thus far I suffer from to many guns syndrome and haven't forced myself to try to get the darn thing running efficiently.

Ok, the deal is: 2K Vfeed cocker with Sidewinder Reg, Jackal Delrin bolt (like lightning with angled port, but no orings), Freeflow ram (sorry, it is just much smoother then my Palmer although I hate to switch), Palmer rock, and Racegun frame. Air source will be an AGD 45/68 Flatline at 875 output.

I've got the madman spring kit. The last time I played with this I was using green/green with 1/2 turn on a standard stainless mainspring nut and getting *horrible* efficiency - on the order of about 500 shots per 4500 fill. (Don't remember the sidewinder input)

After rereading through some other threads it looks like the efficiency problem is due to not a strong enough valve spring - evidently the Tornado needs to be open just a very brief period of time. Anyhow, AKA tech recommend the yellow/yellow equivalent of what ever springs I decide to use.

What say you guys on the springs and Sidewinder input? Second, do you guys see any issues with the Jackal bolt not having orings and causing LP problems? I bought it for it's hugely cool feature of having a slot milled in it so that the hammer lug can be adjusted without removing the bolt. Terry also said due to the weight and lack of orings that I'd see faster cycle times with the Race - which makes sense. The issue is that I've got a pre-2k Lighting bolt (with orings and the adapter back block) and will sacrifice cycle speed for efficiency and noise reduction. (heck I'm lucky to pull 13 anyhow...) Any thoughts on the best path?

Sorry for the length of the post. Also, I'm cross-posting in both forums as there seem to be some great members who seem to stick to one or the other.

Thanks for the help,

-Calvin
cledford is offline  
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 01-06-2004, 08:49 AM #2
minimag47
Punch it hoe bag!
 
minimag47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Warren, RI
minimag47 is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
I actually have a very similar setup. Only big difference is that I used the AKA spring kit instead of the Maddman. The AKA spring kit is basically a very heavy valve spring with a very light main spring. Try using a green main and yellow or even red valve and see how that works.
__________________
"If it isn't broken, you're not trying hard enough"
minimag47 is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 10:37 AM #3
Bimmer323is
 
 
Bimmer323is's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Cleveland, OH
 has been a member for 10 years
cledford, best of luck in your pursuit of LP and efficiency. For at least a year, I've been trying unsuccessfully to even find anyone who actually owns such setup. At this point, I’ve pretty much given up. I’ve settled for 1100 shots on my 68/4500 while operating at. 245 PSI at 285 FPS using FF valve and springs. This is the best I can do without investing upwards of $130 on a dubious setup.

As I have stated in previous posts about this topic, you’ll get a lot of people offering you advice on how to do this, but as soon as you ask if anyone actually owns such a marker then all the sudden the replies stop coming. You’ll always get a few replies from people claiming they have done this, but most of their stories don’t hold water when you press them for details. e.g. no inline gauge on their marker.

My suggestion is that you have to specify what you are looking seeking. Specifically state the operating PSI, average velocity, and how many shots do you hope to get from your specified tank size and fill.

Here are the most recent threads on the topic. As you’ll see, they lead to nowhere.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...78#post3747978
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...21#post3760121
Bimmer323is is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 11:12 AM #4
FallNAngel
Vicious Circles
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: right here
Annual Supporting Member
FallNAngel is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
FallNAngel is playing at Living Legends VI
FallNAngel is playing at Living Legends VII
FallNAngel supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally posted by minimag47
Try using a green main and yellow or even red valve and see how that works.
I agree. Although I was using a stock valve, I was using a green valve and yellow main with the IVG flush with the body. I was planning on trying the red valve spring, but since I'll be going with a midget cocker, I'm not sure how well that'll work. Either way, I say try a stiffer valve spring and see how that goes.
__________________
If you want to set off and go develop some grand new thing, you don't need millions of dollars of capitalization. You need enough pizza and Diet Coke to stick in your refrigerator, a cheap PC to work on, and the dedication to go through with it. We slept on floors. We waded across rivers. -John Carmack

FS: G6R $525 shipped and paypal'd
FallNAngel is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 11:35 AM #5
AutoMaggot
 
 
AutoMaggot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
AutoMaggot is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
I had good luck with blue valve and green main. It seemed to have a pretty good ratio, although finding a yellow would have let me lower my cycling pressure a bit.
AutoMaggot is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 11:35 AM #6
MVPaintballer
Mega Flagellator
 
MVPaintballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: New Hope, PA
Annual Supporting Member
MVPaintballer is a Mega Moderator
MVPaintballer is a Supporting Member
MVPaintballer donated to help Peyton Trent
MVPaintballer supports Bob Gurnsey
MVPaintballer posts videos on PbNation
MVPaintballer supports our troops
Go for consistancy, then effiency, then pressure. Pressure is such a pointless thing. My gun runs at 350psi and can got over 2000 shots on a 88/45 fill using a stock orracle valve.
__________________
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it on the internet.
MVPaintballer is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 01:13 PM #7
cledford
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
My suggestion is that you have to specify what you are looking seeking. Specifically state the operating PSI, average velocity, and how many shots do you hope to get from your specified tank size and fill.
Well, I have no preconceived notions about operating PSI, I could care less if it is 300 or 100. I need the marker to shot 290 and to hopefully yield at least 1300+ (1500 would really make me happy) off of a 68/45. I would like to do this with the AKA valve if possible - more to prove that it actually works than anything. I took Terry Garrett's advice and bought a RAT, which he claimed was a better iteration of the stock valve, basically machined from better material but otherwise the same. He stated that I would have no problems and I believe him. However, (Bimmer) after seeing your other thread on the "free-flow" valve, I feel a need to make a real effort to see if the AKA valve will work, or if it's just a piece of high priced junk. Like everyone else I've heard about those astronomical shot counts and I also own a Viking that gets at least 14-1500 off of a 68/45 fill. I would like my marker as quite as possible (I also own a Shocker), would like the marker as gentle on paint as possible, but I doubt it'll be in "pinching territory." IF that happens great, but I also don't want to run so low I retard the cycle speed. In short, I 'd like to make the Tornado valve run as advertised. If AKA requires a tight bore barrel (Javelin) and a Lighting bolt - I've got both. I just want to make the thing work. In the end - I'll probably be running the RAT T 350+ which is more or less fine - but the Tornado thing sticks in my craw and I've got to at least try.

this help anyone?

-Calvin

Last edited by cledford : 01-06-2004 at 01:22 PM.
cledford is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 02:56 PM #8
crazyj23
RTFM
 
crazyj23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
 has been a member for 10 years
I have a tornado valve and it works fine...I use a yellow nelson valve spring and the equivalent of a yellow main spring (I have a Rex dialer so it's a shorter spring close in tension to a yellow) and a "stock weight" belsales hammer, my gun runs around 180-200 psi at 240fps, and I get 1300+ shots on a 68/3k using a FF 10-hole bolt, if I switched to an open face bolt I'm sure the operating pressure would drop, or the fps would be higher at 200psi...the ideal operating pressure of the tornado valve is 125-250 psi or there about
crazyj23 is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 02:59 PM #9
Conqueror
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD
 
Conqueror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Chapel Thrill, NC
Conqueror is a Moderator
Conqueror is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Conqueror supports our troops
I believe the warranty is voided if you actually run a Tornado valve above 250 or 300.

CQ
Conqueror is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 03:03 PM #10
crazyj23
RTFM
 
crazyj23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
 has been a member for 10 years
it's 400 actually, I just dug out the instructions, and they say input pressures should run anywhere between 150 and 300 psi depending on the setup
crazyj23 is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 03:33 PM #11
Conqueror
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD
 
Conqueror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Chapel Thrill, NC
Conqueror is a Moderator
Conqueror is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Conqueror supports our troops
Ah. I knew it was something like that.

CQ
Conqueror is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 03:38 PM #12
pbjosh
In February -
 
pbjosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bellingham, WA
pbjosh is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
pbjosh works for a Paintball manufacturer
I will post this, which is a copy from the "FF secret revealed" post:

Quote:
As the the AKA setups, YES they do work, and quite well, but they can be hard to setup. The AKA action is different than a standard valve, and that is due to the addition of the 'Fins' to the outside of the valve. One thing forgotten is the AKA valve runs with a harder valve spring, and setting it up useing the existing spring will not help the action.

The AKA issue and ~E~'s valve question both might fit together with the action of a poppet and related 'Sweetspotting' action in relation to the valve spring used.

With the poppet valve, you do not need a spring. The valve actuates fine. The air pressure at the back of the poppet holds it shut just fine. Adding a spring serves to hold the valve shut, and also it affects the sweetspot.

At a point below the sweetspot the valve opens easier, due to the lower pressure on the back side of the valve. Due to the lower pressure the air doesn't pass through the valve as fast as it would at a higher pressure, so in the course of the valves action less energy is released. In the case of a point higher than the sweetspot the extra pressure helps close the valve faster, so while the air is moving faster and contains more energy, the valve shuts down before it has a chance to release enough energy.

The heavier valve spring acts just like higher pressure. The the 'Sweet spot' (the point at the top of the valve bell curve) is lowered when a heavier valve spring is added.

In the case of the AKA not reaching the same efficiency as the stock valve with the stock springs, is because the AKA valve works at a lower sweetspot, and to run well it needs the heavier valve spring. The lighter (stock) valve spring is tuned with the stock valve, while the AKA setup with a larger valve face needs to run at a lower pressure with a higher valve spring to work in the same fashion. The AKA valve should only open about 1/16th of an inch. Setting the Tornado up with a stock valve spring is the same as using a lighter spring with the stock valve. The sweetspot will be higher, and the air usage will increase.
So, instead of matching the valve spring to the hammer spring, make the valve spring as heavy as possible. Test with the heavy spring and if you can't get 300fps then use the next lighter spring.

The HEAVIEST spring that gets you even 285fps with a light hammer adjustment will ALSO be the spring that gets the most effeciency, and will run at the lowest pressure.

Keep working with me, we can get this whipped.

Josh
__________________
"If you build it, they will run"

Colin @ Deadly wind: “We need to stay away from each other. You scare me.”

Owner of Patent #7610907: Paintball marker action assembly
pbjosh is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 04:43 PM #13
crazyj23
RTFM
 
crazyj23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
 has been a member for 10 years
or follow the AKA instructions, like I did:

http://www.akalmp.com/akalmp/installacvalve.htm

for some reason they don't have them linked off of any page, but I typed in the address from a printed copy I have
crazyj23 is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 05:26 PM #14
cledford
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by pbjosh
So, instead of matching the valve spring to the hammer spring, make the valve spring as heavy as possible. Test with the heavy spring and if you can't get 300fps then use the next lighter spring.

The HEAVIEST spring that gets you even 285fps with a light hammer adjustment will ALSO be the spring that gets the most effeciency, and will run at the lowest pressure.

Keep working with me, we can get this whipped.

Josh
Josh,

Thanks for the reply, I also saw your post in the "secrets" thread. It is actually the cause of my angst You're advice directly contradicts that of CQs from a different thread on the same subject. According to CQ:

Quote:
"Anyway, AKA valves work best with ultra-light springs. Yellow mainspring for sure, and either yellow or green valve spring. Sweetspot it with the IVG most of the way out and give those combos a try."


It's so confusing. Add to the issue that we keep talking about yellow springs, but my kit only has red, blue and green and it gets even worse

Anyhow, I was ready to throw my Tornado out (had just bought the RAT from G3PB) when I saw the "secret" thread. I decided that since I never invested the time to get the Tornado working right I'd give it a decent chance before ditching it. Since then I discovered a lot of conflict info. Basically, it's looking like a lot of trial and error is going to be the only hope for a solution. To the you the truth the trial and error has been what has put me off since I bought the darn thing almost 4 years ago. I'm thinking that I'm going to bite the bullet and figure it out, but I can see why others might be put off. I realize part of the beauty of owning a cocker is the tinkering, but this is pushing the envelop. I like building things, not constantly tearing them apart to replace springs

-Calvin
cledford is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 05:56 PM #15
FallNAngel
Vicious Circles
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: right here
Annual Supporting Member
FallNAngel is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
FallNAngel is playing at Living Legends VI
FallNAngel is playing at Living Legends VII
FallNAngel supports DLX Technology
Yes, you have a madman spring set. Red is the heaviest, Blue is middle and the green is the lightest. If you wanted a Yellow spring, you could get a Nelson spring set, that comes with Green and Yellow.
__________________
If you want to set off and go develop some grand new thing, you don't need millions of dollars of capitalization. You need enough pizza and Diet Coke to stick in your refrigerator, a cheap PC to work on, and the dedication to go through with it. We slept on floors. We waded across rivers. -John Carmack

FS: G6R $525 shipped and paypal'd
FallNAngel is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 05:57 PM #16
pbjosh
In February -
 
pbjosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bellingham, WA
pbjosh is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
pbjosh works for a Paintball manufacturer
If the Cocker was just easier to work on!

Part of the fun is seeing how the parts interact, and actually getting it to work again. But, for back and forth testing like this, I understand.

CQ was right though, the AKA works best with light springs.

Light hammer springs.

Did you change out the hammer spring at any point? Which one is it now? Same with the hammer. ALOT of aftermarket hammers get more velocity by compacting the spring more.

That would transfer into more travel in the valve also.

Also, I tried to use slightly heavier, but shorter, springs in the hammer section, so the Hammer/spring would not be putting pressure on the valve when the hammer is all the way forward.

Josh
__________________
"If you build it, they will run"

Colin @ Deadly wind: “We need to stay away from each other. You scare me.”

Owner of Patent #7610907: Paintball marker action assembly
pbjosh is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 06:02 PM #17
pbjosh
In February -
 
pbjosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bellingham, WA
pbjosh is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
pbjosh works for a Paintball manufacturer
Just Re-read your setup-

Take out the Green Valve spring, put in a Blue Valve spring.

Back out the IVG all the way and go from there. At most, you might need to turn the IVG 2 turns. That should be it.

Tell us what your total setup is- maybe it is something else (about a 5% chance)

Josh
__________________
"If you build it, they will run"

Colin @ Deadly wind: “We need to stay away from each other. You scare me.”

Owner of Patent #7610907: Paintball marker action assembly
pbjosh is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 06:24 PM #18
Eternal
Kut The Krap
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Evergreen State
 has been a member for 10 years
you should go pick up an AKA spring kit and try that out.
I've got one for my tornado valve and it works great i dont have any problems shooting 290fps but i dont know what pressure im running.
__________________
02 BlackMagic
Fully loaded and ready to unload
Eternal is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 08:58 PM #19
cledford
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by pbjosh
Just Re-read your setup-

Take out the Green Valve spring, put in a Blue Valve spring.

Back out the IVG all the way and go from there. At most, you might need to turn the IVG 2 turns. That should be it.

Tell us what your total setup is- maybe it is something else (about a 5% chance)

Josh
The new setup will be:

WGP 2k Vfeed body, Jackel hammer, jackel bolt, stainless no-name IGV, Blue valve and green hammer to start out. Will use a freak to match paint to bore where paint won't roll out.

Other stuff: Freeflow ram, palmer rock and race frame and 'noid.

-Calvin
cledford is offline  
Old 01-06-2004, 10:22 PM #20
crazyj23
RTFM
 
crazyj23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
 has been a member for 10 years
hmm...just noticed something...your hammer...if it's too light it could be a problem...AKA suggests a "stock weight" hammer, roughly 40 grams....and click the link in my previous post, that's AKA's installation instructions where they suggest yellow/yellow
crazyj23 is offline  
Old 01-07-2004, 04:53 AM #21
DocsMachine
Yeah, I can make that.
 
DocsMachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Way up North
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by cledford
The new setup will be:

WGP 2k Vfeed body, Jackel hammer, jackel bolt, stainless no-name IGV, Blue valve and green hammer to start out. Will use a freak to match paint to bore where paint won't roll out.

Other stuff: Freeflow ram, palmer rock and race frame and 'noid.
-I want you to try something, if you can. Find yourself an old six-hole venturi bolt, or an old-old-old stock bolt, with a small internal passage.

Try that with your current setup and see what that gains you.

When I was recently fiddling with my FastBack prototype, the setup originally had the huge-bore bolt, the kind everyone thinks is so popular since it "adds more flow". I switched it over to a bolt with a bore the same .272" diameter as the passage leading up from the valve.

With a 38 gram hammer, no cocking rod (halfback style setup) AKA spring set, Tornado and 220 psi out of a Max Flow, I easily got 285 and a roughly estimated/part wild guess (since I never fired the tank all the way down) 1K shots per 3K/68 tank.

When I switched back to the "open" bolt, I lost between 35 and 50 fps, and had to turn the adjuster (which started flush with the back of the body) in over ten full turns to regain most of that speed. Efficiency- again roughly estimated- took a major dump, possibly by as much as half.

The large-bore bolts do very little but allow the gas to expand- and thus lose energy- before it even hits the ball. The key here is not "maximum flow", it's properly managing the energy.

I have a 2K-length delrin bolt I cut as an experiment last summer (with similar results.) If you have a 2K block you can swap in to try it, you're welcome to it. I'd be interested to see if you run across a similar phenomenon.

I should also note I tried a RAT 3:16 style valve (same as the Jackal valve) in the gun. Precisely the same setup (Race, 38 gram hammer, AKA springs, smallbore bolt, etc) required five turns in on the adjuster (with the Tornado it was flush) and used noticibly more gas.

Doc.
__________________
Doc's Machine and Airsmith Services. Paintball customization and repair since 1998!
NEW! Check out the all-new Doc's Shop!
And the world-famous Whiteboard Paintball Webcomics! Now in full color!
Confusing the hell out of nonplayers every Monday, Wednesday and Friday since 2002.
DocsMachine is offline  
 




Posting Rules
Forum Jump