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Old 08-28-2012, 07:22 AM #1
drummerhubbard
 
 
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hand fit

How good are the shootnpoo hand fit orings for the gt

?
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:42 AM #2
Mark S.
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I would say give the kit a shot!

I prefer the poly and viton o-rings over the buna for the dynamic seals. I think at minimum that you should consider replacing the valve o-rings as they should last a good long time using the different material.

The only o-rings in my GT that are factory buna are the static o-rings at this point.
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:32 AM #3
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I have been hearing a lot about hand fitting O-rings and replacing some of them with the other types (poly and viton I think) but I dont know how to go about it or what the characteristics of the different types of materials are.

Could someone give me some suggestions on which O-rings to replace, with what types, and why? That or at least point me towards a guide or info thread.
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:48 AM #4
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I'm no o-ring Jedi but I've read a lot about them and could find no reason not to use poly or viton o-rings for the dynamic seals. They are more durable and once broken in they should be more slick too, ultimately allowing you to lower your operating pressure and having o-rings that last a very long time.

I've been playing around with many configurations and here's what I have right now that I am liking. I'm going to give this setup a while to work itself in and see how I like it after 10-20 cases.


EDIT:

Powertube front / mid - poly 70 duro
Bolt keg / spacer - buna 70 duro
Bolt switch - buna 70 duro (but will be trying viton 75 duro)
Valve - poly 70 duro

I would recommend the new lube that they came out with as it's fantastic stuff.

Here is a pic of the drivetrain (not mine, just a factory pic) just to have a visual to go along with the locations.


Last edited by Mark S. : 09-19-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:39 PM #5
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For me, I bought HNBR, voting and poly.
I didn't hand fit them however.
Tried them on the vx and has worked well.

HPR piston: HNBR
Powertube front: poly

Viton: spacer, bolt switch, bolt keg, and powertube mid.

Started out at 100 psi for 280-285.
After 1 case, turned it slightly down to about 96-97psi to keep it 280-285.

Will be doing same thing for the GT when I receive it.
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Old 08-28-2012, 01:32 PM #6
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Despite what paintball companies may tell you HNBR is not ideal for this application, call a few oring manufacturers and describe the application and most of them will suggest urethane and/ or viton for the material and o or x profile. I am using a combination of viton o, viton x and urethane orings on my clone. I have found that viton seems well suited for the valve, especially taking into account the slightly harder durometer. As I posted in the oring thread I recommend:

Bolt Keg Inner (017) - 75 duro viton xring
Bolt Keg Outer (020) - 70 duro buna
Bolt Tip (014) - 70 duro urethane
Bolt Bumper (15x1) - 70 duro urethane
Bolt Switch (016) - 75 duro viton
Spacer Inner (017) - 75 duro viton xring
Spacer Outer (017) - 70 duro buna
Valve Front (17x1) - 75 duro viton/ 70 duro urethane
Valve Middle (17x1) - 75 duro viton/ 70 duro urethane
Valve Rear (15x1) - 75 duro viton/ 70 duro urethane
Valve Keg Outer (020) - 70 duro buna
Powertube Tip (011) - 70 duro urethane
Powertube Mid (10x1) - 70 duro urethane
Powertube Cap Inside (020) - 70 duro buna
Powertube Cap Outside (020) - 70 duro buna

Just an FYI though that urethane is best for it's abrasion resistance (dynamic applications) and works well for the bumper too. Viton is better than buna pretty much across the board, but is more expensive and typically harder... I really like running the xrings on the bolt keg inner and the spacer inner and I use regular 75 duro orings on the valve too. They have better abrasion resistance than buna, but urethane is better... the higher duro has a better friction coefficient and the xring helps as well. Buna is cheap and readily available so I use them for static seals.

Hand fitting orings from one gun to fit another is a little misleading too IMO. Machine tolerances usually operate in a range ie +/-.003 so if you're on the tight end of the spec and the test gun is on the loose end then it's not so great. Buy a bag from McMaster and fit them yourself or just buy a kit.
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Old 08-28-2012, 01:39 PM #7
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Glad you chimed in here shifty.

I'm curious what your reasoning is for using a viton o-ring on the switch as opposed to poly, and why poly on the powertube as opposed to viton.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:31 PM #8
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Hand fitted orings that come in the kit are all within tolorances that will fit perfectly in the GTs. I have ran 1000s of orings and have made sure that these will last and fit perfectly every time.

Blue is correct tolorances from machining can change but it's rare you see more than .003. Quality orings will compensate for those losses. If you have more questions you can post up in here and I'm sure they will be answered promptly.
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:37 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Glad you chimed in here shifty.

I'm curious what your reasoning is for using a viton o-ring on the switch as opposed to poly, and why poly on the powertube as opposed to viton.
The viton on the switch is because the higher durometer of the viton ring plus the xrings on the inners completes the low friction bolt trifecta. The powertube oring catches the corner of the bolt so I like the added durability. Probably if I could source 75 duro urethane then I'd run those pretty much everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOOTNPOO View Post
Hand fitted orings that come in the kit are all within tolorances that will fit perfectly in the GTs. I have ran 1000s of orings and have made sure that these will last and fit perfectly every time.

Blue is correct tolorances from machining can change but it's rare you see more than .003. Quality orings will compensate for those losses. If you have more questions you can post up in here and I'm sure they will be answered promptly.
I'm not trying to knock you man, just wanted to try and inform people that there is always a little slack in machine tolerances. I can honestly say that MacDev is FAR superior in that regard and holds amazing tolerances, which is part of the reason I'm such a fan.
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:50 PM #10
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I wasn't trying to say anything I was just confirming your statement and informing people that the orings are within specs that I have set forth to fit perfectly. If they want to spend 50 bucks on 20 orings of one variety they are more than welcome to. I just made the kit to insure they would get best performance out of the marker along with orings that last.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:10 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
The viton on the switch is because the higher durometer of the viton ring plus the xrings on the inners completes the low friction bolt trifecta. The powertube oring catches the corner of the bolt so I like the added durability. Probably if I could source 75 duro urethane then I'd run those pretty much everywhere.
So what should have less friction once completely broken in? The Viton 75 or the Poly 70? I've been going back and forth on what I should be using for the switch. I wasn't sure which would have less friction.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:26 PM #12
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Polly will have less friction
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:30 PM #13
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Thanks Eric. I have poly in there now so I think I'll just leave it. They definitely feel like they have a bit more friction than buna right when you put them in but I think it just needs a little time to break in and I'm sure it will be nice and slick after that.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:20 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
Despite what paintball companies may tell you HNBR is not ideal for this application, call a few oring manufacturers and describe the application and most of them will suggest urethane and/ or viton for the material and o or x profile.
Oh ok, thanks for the info. So then buna would be better than HNBR? I understand that vito and poly would be the top two, but what about HNBR makes it not ideal?

This statement on the MD forum would be false then? I dont mean to cause any trouble, just trying to learn more about different orings and seeing conflicting reports.

Quote:
HNBR - Also known as High-Temperature Buna-N (Hydrogenated Nitrile Butadiene Rubber). These are the green orings you see. They are similar to Buna, except the material is hydrogenized (saturated with hydrogen to improve resistance to heat and ozone). They should hold up longer than urethane or buna, while maintaining the same durometer as the Buna rings.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:30 PM #15
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Quote:
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Thanks Eric. I have poly in there now so I think I'll just leave it. They definitely feel like they have a bit more friction than buna right when you put them in but I think it just needs a little time to break in and I'm sure it will be nice and slick after that.
Polly takes a little while to break in vs Vinton but once they break in the results are worth every bit of it.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:41 PM #16
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Quote:
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Polly takes a little while to break in vs Vinton but once they break in the results are worth every bit of it.
Awesome, I'm going to leave them on everything but the valve though. Was contemplating using them on the valve too but the vitons seem to be working well right now. If you ever try them on the valve let me know since I know you're using vitons on the valve right now too.
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:33 AM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
So what should have less friction once completely broken in? The Viton 75 or the Poly 70? I've been going back and forth on what I should be using for the switch. I wasn't sure which would have less friction.
It's actually pretty tough to say. Material, profile and durometer (due to seal compression) all affect friction; really it is balancing breakaway and running friction that is the more delicate topic. Higher durometers (same material) have lower running friction, but typically have a higher compression set which increase the breakaway numbers. That said, urethane is a better material and 75 is a better durometer but I have found that the durometer is more critical in our environment. If I could find 75 duro urethane then they'd be ideal.

http://www.parker.com/literature/ORD...g_Handbook.pdf

Again, feel free to to call some oring manufacturers and ask for their recommendations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriouslysilly View Post
Oh ok, thanks for the info. So then buna would be better than HNBR? I understand that vito and poly would be the top two, but what about HNBR makes it not ideal?

This statement on the MD forum would be false then? I dont mean to cause any trouble, just trying to learn more about different orings and seeing conflicting reports.
HNBR is expensive and not great in dynamic applications.

http://www.marcorubber.com/material_chart.htm

(I actually called this company.)
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:34 AM #18
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Thanks again for your very useful information blueshifty. I remember our previous conversations and I looked for urethane o-rings in 75 or 80 duro but was unable to find them anywhere so I ended up with 70. I think the 70 is going to work real nice once worked in. I think I'll leave this setup installed for a while to see how it works out.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:15 AM #19
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We ran 2 markers at DC with Polly on valve, power tube, switch. These markers were set up prior to the event with about 4 cases threw them.
I wanted to see what efficiencys if any gain or decline vs my personal during the tourney.

Both markers ran same setup and settings.
AVERAGES

Marker 1
Consistent 10 pods and a hopper on a 68/45.
4300 fill and 290 FPS with 5-700 psi left


Marker 2
Consistent 9 pods and a hopper on a 68/45
4300 fill and 290FPS with 1200-1400 psi left.

My marker running Vinton valve, Polly power tube, 015 Polly switch
Consistent 10 pods and hopper on 70/45
4300 fill and 290 FPS with 12-1300 psi left
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:25 AM #20
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Ok so it looks like the 2 test markers got relatively similar efficiency. Yours probably is getting more due to the 015 on the switch allowing your pressure to be turned down a bit. I tried the 015's on the switch and it literally just floats around in the keg, feels like barely any contact is being made.
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:24 AM #21
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Mark I order more, once they arrive ill hook it up.
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