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Old 09-02-2012, 03:05 PM #22
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The Qur'an was recited during Muhammad's lifetime. It literally means "the recitation". During his lifetime thousands of his followers had memorized the recitation in it's entirety. It wasn't until after his death that it was compiled into a standardized book.

You claim it was created to "claim social control" which is one way to look at it, but if you knew about the history and context of Muhammad you'd see that it UNITED Arab tribes who'd been at war for centuries. And if you knew what was practiced during those times of brutality in Arabia before Islam, you'd know that it's much more reasonable to state it civilized a barbaric society more so than it "claimed social control". Add into the discussion that Muhammad and the early Caliphs were unbelievably God-fearing people, and everything they did was not for themselves. In fact, they lived very poor and humble lives until their deaths. Instead, they very clearly professed that they were doing it in the name of God. With a proper understanding of the history of early Islamic civilization, it's hard to make the argument that Muhammad was not absolutely sincere in belief towards his stated mission. The argument that he only wanted power is pretty baseless. Most historians agree that if he was not correct in his teachings, he was simply a madman who truly believed in his mission.
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:07 PM #23
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Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
As you've said it yourself, religion is a copout. That's the problem, it's a huge block of power for those who have no interest in understanding the world around us because it's easier to attribute it to god.
So you're blaming religion (Islam) because dumb people can use it as a copout, even though it isn't inherently one considering it tells us to observe how God began creation?

Oh, well that's stupid.
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:48 PM #24
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So you're blaming religion (Islam) because dumb people can use it as a copout, even though it isn't inherently one considering it tells us to observe how God began creation?

Oh, well that's stupid.
So there are billions of dumb people? Science directly contradicts the bible's account of how creation began, which leads them to say science is crap in favor of the bible's account. That's the problem.
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Old 09-02-2012, 07:40 PM #25
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So there are billions of dumb people? Science directly contradicts the bible's account of how creation began, which leads them to say science is crap in favor of the bible's account. That's the problem.
1) Well yea, there is
2) jokes aside, there may not be billions of dumb people, but there are billions of people who dont give a damn about human evolution and don't have the care to study it any further.
3) I'm not well versed on the bible so I can't comment on it
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:32 PM #26
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You can insert any holy text in place of the bible.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:34 AM #27
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You can insert any holy text in place of the bible.
Bahaha. Oh wow.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:38 PM #28
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Bahaha. Oh wow.
Point one major creation myth that's consistent with the big bang.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:09 PM #29
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"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [Qur'an 21:30]

That pretty clearly supports the Big Bang.

"And the firmament, We constructed with power and skill and verily We are expanding it. [Qur'an 51:47]

Pretty clearly supports that the Universe is constantly expanding, which has been proven to be true.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:25 PM #30
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That's a pretty big stretch.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:32 PM #31
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Is it? Heavens and the earth were once one mass ---> Split them apart ---> Universe is being expanded

Where's the stretch? What else could one interpret those verses to mean?
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:47 PM #32
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What about Surah 41.11?

Quote:
Thus, He* completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we* adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:33 PM #33
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That verse is actually 42.12, just FYI.

But the word "days" which is used in the translation is the Arabic word "ayyamin" which also means "period" or "term".

The Qur'an does not contain a complete chronology of creation.[2] It declares variously that it took "six ayums" to create the "seven heavens [or firmaments] and earth".[3] An 'ayum' is defined as a stage, or a relative quantity of time rather than a 24 hour period.[2] This ambiguity leaves the possibility of an old earth and a young earth is wholly excluded.

Also, as we know from relativity, the time we experience here on earth is not equal to what would be experienced in other parts of the universe. While we might experience a day, elsewhere in the universe would experience time much, much faster than that. Basically, when the Big Bang initially occurred it's understood time was 10^12 times faster than what we experience on earth today, so 1 trillion days we experience on earth now would be equal to 1 day universal time right after the initial explosion. If God told us He created everything in 6 days time (universal time), it translates to 6 trillion days earth time. 6 x 10^12 days / 365.25 days/year is equal to 16.43 billion years, which falls within the estimated range of the age of the universe.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_33.html

I'm not really qualified to get into the specifics of the physics but Harun Yayha does a good job of explaining it, and it actually makes sense.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:50 PM #34
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Also, I don't like dwelling on issues such as that because it has no real value to my life. I don't need to focus intensely on crazy scientific study to try and prove the Qur'an, because it's so much more than those issues. The verses which are clear and easily understandable to our stupid little human brains are what have the greatest impact on me.

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is ambiguous, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." [Qur'an 3:7]
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:57 PM #35
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That verse is actually 42.12, just FYI.

But the word "days" which is used in the translation is the Arabic word "ayyamin" which also means "period" or "term".

The Qur'an does not contain a complete chronology of creation.[2] It declares variously that it took "six ayums" to create the "seven heavens [or firmaments] and earth".[3] An 'ayum' is defined as a stage, or a relative quantity of time rather than a 24 hour period.[2] This ambiguity leaves the possibility of an old earth and a young earth is wholly excluded.

Also, as we know from relativity, the time we experience here on earth is not equal to what would be experienced in other parts of the universe. While we might experience a day, elsewhere in the universe would experience time much, much faster than that. Basically, when the Big Bang initially occurred it's understood time was 10^12 times faster than what we experience on earth today, so 1 trillion days we experience on earth now would be equal to 1 day universal time right after the initial explosion. If God told us He created everything in 6 days time (universal time), it translates to 6 trillion days earth time. 6 x 10^12 days / 365.25 days/year is equal to 16.43 billion years, which falls within the estimated range of the age of the universe.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_33.html

I'm not really qualified to get into the specifics of the physics but Harun Yayha does a good job of explaining it, and it actually makes sense.
The article doesn't get the age of the universe nor size right and the author doesn't seem to understand relativity. There's no "universal time" and it is not understood that time passed 10^12 times faster than today. The math done by the author is completely contrived and has no citations to even substantiate itself.

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Also, I don't like dwelling on issues such as that because it has no real value to my life. I don't need to focus intensely on crazy scientific study to try and prove the Qur'an, because it's so much more than those issues. The verses which are clear and easily understandable to our stupid little human brains are what have the greatest impact on me.

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is ambiguous, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." [Qur'an 3:7]
I guess you're just one of the billions.
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:19 AM #36
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It really doesn't matter. The word "ayyatin" does not mean day, it denotes a relative period of time and is used in other parts of the Qur'an. The Qur'an speaks relatively about the creation of the earth/universe, in addition to other events (speed of angels)

http://teresi.us/html/writing/time_creation.html

Do you think the flow of time is going to be relatively equal to what we experience on earth, right at the start of the Big Bang?

That link was just a modern attempt by a relatively famous author to explain science with the Qur'an. I can't readily review the numbers but I'm sure his work is highly reviewed by critics. You could try and verify them if you want. What's amazing is modern scientific study of religious text is relatively new and no text has more study done to it than the Qur'an. I think we know a lot less about our universe than we think we do and the Qur'an is stated ambiguous enough at this point to where I can't find a contradiction. Instead I just find so many things that agree.

http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm

Plus the Qur'an has a bigger effect on me than just science. The only way to know the Qur'an is to read it and hear it recited. The full understanding makes so much sense that the ambiguous parts (which have yet to be contradicted) are ambiguous because it's God's reminding us that we don't know everything that there is to know.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:57 AM #37
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Isnt the spiritual the point of the Quran anyway? Why do you even bother playing apologetics with natural scientists? Isn't all of that well besides the point of the text?
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:25 PM #38
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It really doesn't matter. The word "ayyatin" does not mean day, it denotes a relative period of time and is used in other parts of the Qur'an. The Qur'an speaks relatively about the creation of the earth/universe, in addition to other events (speed of angels)

http://teresi.us/html/writing/time_creation.html

Do you think the flow of time is going to be relatively equal to what we experience on earth, right at the start of the Big Bang?

That link was just a modern attempt by a relatively famous author to explain science with the Qur'an. I can't readily review the numbers but I'm sure his work is highly reviewed by critics. You could try and verify them if you want. What's amazing is modern scientific study of religious text is relatively new and no text has more study done to it than the Qur'an. I think we know a lot less about our universe than we think we do and the Qur'an is stated ambiguous enough at this point to where I can't find a contradiction. Instead I just find so many things that agree.

http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm

Plus the Qur'an has a bigger effect on me than just science. The only way to know the Qur'an is to read it and hear it recited. The full understanding makes so much sense that the ambiguous parts (which have yet to be contradicted) are ambiguous because it's God's reminding us that we don't know everything that there is to know.
The passage of time during the Big Bang went through several different periods but I have not been able to find the 10^12 the author claimed.

The speed of angels is pretty nifty, but defies physics. Either they're not massive and thus travel at the speed of light constantly, or they're massive and can never travel at the speed of light unless they were to somehow have infinite energy.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:51 PM #39
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Islam teaches us that God made angels from light, which is why it's awesome that 50,000 human years to one day for angels means they must be traveling at the speed of light.

Prophet Muhammad said, “The angels are created from light,” [Sahih Muslim]
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:15 PM #40
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Did it not say in your link that angels are able to move with any speed they wish?
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:23 PM #41
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I'm not sure if he says that or if he comes to that conclusion, but there's nothing in the Qur'an that says they move different speeds...just that one relativistic expression about 50,000 years being equal to 1 day (from what I know). Theologically speaking, Angels are in full submission to God, so they move at the speed at which God wills.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:34 PM #42
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Moslems (Muslims) believe that angels are low density creatures, and that God created them originally from light. They move at any speed from zero up to the speed of light. It is the angels who carry out God's orders. Those angels take their orders from a Preserved Tablet somewhere in outer space, and not from God's Throne. They commute to and from this Preserved Tablet to get their orders from God. In the following verse, the Quran describes how angels travel when they commute to and from this Tablet. And the speed at which they commute to and from this Tablet turned out to be the known speed of light:
He says it outright and it's not possible.
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