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Old 08-25-2012, 07:54 AM #43
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Originally Posted by Diametunim
Put out a 45/45 and I would buy one immediately. My tank has been out of hydro for 3 years lolololol.
I have a 2 tanks that has Not been hydro from 2004 lol But I have two new tank tho lolol
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:26 AM #44
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Originally Posted by TheHef View Post
Let me see, ANS makes more money selling these tanks AND the consumer gets a tank for cheaper. That to me seems like a win win!!!
Ya, sounds like a great deal to me too! Well, except for that whole cannibalizing the market thing...but who cares about that, right?
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:30 AM #45
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Originally Posted by martix_agent View Post
or you could wait for a reply from ANS to see what they say before you jump to conclusions.
That could be a long process.

And here is what I believe tha they are going to say. If it's a reg issue you take it directly to crossfire. If it's a tank or assembly issue, then send it to ANS for exchange. At least crossfire (and ninja) will get back to you, ANS, meh not so much always.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:36 AM #46
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Originally Posted by f8al View Post
Well, except for that whole cannibalizing the market thing...but who cares about that, right?
Wow, a company is putting out a similar product at a cheaper price than other companies? There was a word for this that I learned in business class. You know, that thing that serves as a basis of capitalism. I think it was "competition."
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:36 AM #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
That could be a long process.

And here is what I believe tha they are going to say. If it's a reg issue you take it directly to crossfire. If it's a tank or assembly issue, then send it to ANS for exchange. At least crossfire (and ninja) will get back to you, ANS, meh not so much always.
My guess is, as with EVERYTHING else they sell, you would need to go to the MFR of the part that malfunctioned. If the bottle fails you would go to Inocom and if the reg fails you would go to Crossfire (or whomever you chose to have put on).

I have spoken with them before regarding their "warranty" process, mainly because people were dumb enough to buy an exclusive color from them and then it was ****ed up when they got it BRAND NEW. "We simply do too many transactions to be able to service all the problems that customers have." is what I was told. Seems to me when you're as big as ANS, you would have a department for returns and exchanges etc, but that's just me. My shop does thousands of transactions annually too and we manage to handle any and all issues with a mere 5 employees...crazy, I know. If you sell something as a retailed then you need to stand behind the product and make things right should something go wrong, but that's just my though process....
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:19 AM #48
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Originally Posted by martix_agent View Post
or you could wait for a reply from ANS to see what they say before you jump to conclusions.
From many past problems no thanks on waiting. They are huge joke.

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Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
That could be a long process.

And here is what I believe tha they are going to say. If it's a reg issue you take it directly to crossfire. If it's a tank or assembly issue, then send it to ANS for exchange. At least crossfire (and ninja) will get back to you, ANS, meh not so much always.
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Originally Posted by f8al View Post
My guess is, as with EVERYTHING else they sell, you would need to go to the MFR of the part that malfunctioned. If the bottle fails you would go to Inocom and if the reg fails you would go to Crossfire (or whomever you chose to have put on).

I have spoken with them before regarding their "warranty" process, mainly because people were dumb enough to buy an exclusive color from them and then it was ****ed up when they got it BRAND NEW. "We simply do too many transactions to be able to service all the problems that customers have." is what I was told. Seems to me when you're as big as ANS, you would have a department for returns and exchanges etc, but that's just me. My shop does thousands of transactions annually too and we manage to handle any and all issues with a mere 5 employees...crazy, I know. If you sell something as a retailed then you need to stand behind the product and make things right should something go wrong, but that's just my though process....

f8al nailed it.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:10 AM #49
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That's another way they are saving money. By not having to honor any of the warranty, at least through the reg company, they are not out any expense for repair or maintenance.
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Old 08-25-2012, 12:45 PM #50
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Originally Posted by JohnSherman View Post
Wow, a company is putting out a similar product at a cheaper price than other companies? There was a word for this that I learned in business class. You know, that thing that serves as a basis of capitalism. I think it was "competition."
You're missing the point here. The issue here is that ANS is supposed to be a distributor (read distribute items made by others), not a manufacturer (in this case an OEM). I doubt that Crossfire sold them their regs at discounted distributor price levels knowing that they were to be used so that ANS would undercut Crossfire's own product offering. Maybe that is what you were taught was "competition."

I was taught that competition was when someone developed a competing product and brought it to market as an additional item to offer with a new or unique feature set.

In my model of competition, ANS would come to market with a reg that they developed and tested and they could stay at the $120 price. The question then would be, who in the world would be comfortable playing with an ANS reg rated at 4500PSI? Not me, and I bet I am in the majority if you factor in the rep that ANS has overall. I hope these tanks are short lived and the reg manufacturers no longer use ANS to distribute anything of theirs but fully assembled tanks.
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Old 08-25-2012, 01:13 PM #51
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Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
You're missing the point here. The issue here is that ANS is supposed to be a distributor (read distribute items made by others), not a manufacturer (in this case an OEM). I doubt that Crossfire sold them their regs at discounted distributor price levels knowing that they were to be used so that ANS would undercut Crossfire's own product offering. Maybe that is what you were taught was "competition."
Actually yeah. There isn't some rule out there that prevents a distributor from manufacturing their own goods, and it definitely doesn't matter what Crossfire's opinion on the matter is. They are completely free to stop selling their regs through ANS if they want.


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I was taught that competition was when someone developed a competing product and brought it to market as an additional item to offer with a new or unique feature set.
This does have a new feature: It's cheaper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanian View Post
In my model of competition, ANS would come to market with a reg that they developed and tested and they could stay at the $120 price. The question then would be, who in the world would be comfortable playing with an ANS reg rated at 4500PSI? Not me, and I bet I am in the majority if you factor in the rep that ANS has overall. I hope these tanks are short lived and the reg manufacturers no longer use ANS to distribute anything of theirs but fully assembled tanks.
Why bother? When IBM came out with their first PC, they almost exclusively used off the shelf parts to build it. Nobody got up in arms about how they were cheating and needed to set a bunch of money on fire to get to the same result.

I find it very funny that the people who enjoy the fruits of a capitalist society are complaining because a company they dislike had a clever idea. Computers, cell phones, televisions, and DVD players are all inexpensive because of this type of competition. Would you also suggest that we should all be paying $300 for a RAZR, $1000 for a DVD player, or 9 grand for an HDTV?
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Old 08-25-2012, 01:21 PM #52
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Looks ok but I'll stick with ninja who offers the best customer support I have ever seen. When I was looking for a candy blue tank and everywhere was sold out I pm'd rob asking where I could get one and he found me a place that was just about to get them in. Now that's what you call customer support which is something ans would never do. As for ans's so called warranty they always tell you to take it back to the manufacturer for any defects. This is even when you got it from them not working.
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Old 08-25-2012, 03:08 PM #53
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Maybe ANS would be kind enough to chime in and let everyone know exactly who/which company would be handling any issues that may arise? That would be a lot of people's minds at ease I bet.
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Old 08-25-2012, 03:41 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSherman View Post
...There isn't some rule out there that prevents a distributor from manufacturing their own goods...
Nothing aside form the fact that by definition distributors of a product do not manufacture. The service in the market that they offer is to hold inventory for purchase by the downstream consumption channel, to represent the product in their advertisements, sales literature etc, and lastly to offer the manufacturer a reduced number of transactions to get product to market.

Distributors do not take material from a manufacturer that they're representing and use that material to offer a product under their own label that competes with the material that they've got a dsitribution agreement for.

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.....it definitely doesn't matter (to JohnSherman) what Crossfire's opinion on the matter is....
Fixed.
It does certainly matter to me what crossfire's take on this is.

In the end, you are free to look at it how you'd like, I see it differently.

As I've said, I won't be buying this or anything else from ANS. Some people will feel like me, and probably most will be 'enlightened' & 'educated' business historians like yourself who have it all figured out and don't need to spend the extra $15 to get something from the company that is making it and paying for the R&D.
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Old 08-25-2012, 03:57 PM #55
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Nothing aside form the fact that by definition distributors of a product do not manufacture. The service in the market that they offer is to hold inventory for purchase by the downstream consumption channel, to represent the product in their advertisements, sales literature etc, and lastly to offer the manufacturer a reduced number of transactions to get product to market.

Distributors do not take material from a manufacturer that they're representing and use that material to offer a product under their own label that competes with the material that they've got a dsitribution agreement for.
What, morally or legally, prevents a distributor from selling their own products? Absolutely nothing.

Honestly, it sounds like you just have something against ANS Gear and are using this to try and make a point about some vague "rules of distribution" that you seem to think exist.

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Old 08-25-2012, 04:10 PM #56
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Remember the fake GA Myth regs they made? That alone was reason enough for them to never get any of my money. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was some more shady, underhanded bs they're pulling.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:45 PM #57
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What, morally or legally, prevents a distributor from selling their own products? ....
Typically there is a distribution agreement between the two parties establishing material volume, pricing levels, liabilities, payment terms, etc.
At least that is the case in the businesses I've been a part of. This may not be the case in this instance due to the nature of the volume but certainly a distribution agreement is more common then not.

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Honestly, it sounds like you just have something against ANS Gear and are using this to try and make a point about some vague "rules of distribution" that you seem to think exist.
So we're clear, this instance is what I've got against ANS. I've never piled on with them in the past, and I think I may have actually ordered from them when I was more of a gear whore.

To address the 'rules of distribution' comment and further my point, I look at this from both ANS's perspective and Crossfire's and I don't agree with ANS's actions on this. The only exception would be if Crossfire says that they knew and OK'd this.

Again, I would rather pay the extra $15 and get a tank new direct from crossfire, that is me. You do whatever you want and go be happy about it.
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Old 08-25-2012, 08:09 PM #58
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It blows my mind that you guys can't wrap your heads around this.

It's a carbon fiber bottle from Inocom.

Same guys that made the Smart Parts bottles, the DXS bottles, the SLY bottles, the CP bottles, and a million other brands. I have never seen one with a <del>****</del>ty gelcoat, I have never seen one delaminate, and I've never seen one "fail". They are, in my opinion, the best brand made.

My Ninja bottle from Luxfer ("the Grey Ghost") has a tacky gelcoat. Like, if you leave it on your car dash by accident in the heat, it will peel away your dash coating when you move the bottle. This doesn't compromise the safety of the bottle, but still a little frustrating.

My Guerilla bottle (made by Gayston) began to delaminate. Yes, you heard it right. The <del>****</del>ing fibers began to UNWIND from the exterior of the bottle. Guerilla's customer service department told me to pound sand, and left me high and dry. (Thanks guys!)

If you have a problem with the bottle out of the box, ANS will help you out with an exchange. It's a Crossfire reg. If you have a problem with the reg, call Crossfire. Send the reg to Crossfire. They will fix it for you.

Quite frankly, when dealing with something that is charged with 4500psi, I'd rather deal with the manufacturer--not a paintball store--online or otherwise.

The idea that some of you guys trust your tanks for to local wrench-wielding minimum wage "techs" at paintball stores is frightening--I'd rather send tank\regulator to the manufacturer for repair, if I need it.

Name brand tank. Name brand regulator. Under $120.

I'd say they knocked this one out of the park.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:38 PM #59
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It blows my mind that you guys can't wrap your heads around this.

It's a carbon fiber bottle from Inocom.

Same guys that made the Smart Parts bottles, the DXS bottles, the SLY bottles, the CP bottles, and a million other brands. I have never seen one with a <del>****</del>ty gelcoat, I have never seen one delaminate, and I've never seen one "fail". They are, in my opinion, the best brand made.

My Ninja bottle from Luxfer ("the Grey Ghost") has a tacky gelcoat. Like, if you leave it on your car dash by accident in the heat, it will peel away your dash coating when you move the bottle. This doesn't compromise the safety of the bottle, but still a little frustrating.

My Guerilla bottle (made by Gayston) began to delaminate. Yes, you heard it right. The <del>****</del>ing fibers began to UNWIND from the exterior of the bottle. Guerilla's customer service department told me to pound sand, and left me high and dry. (Thanks guys!)

If you have a problem with the bottle out of the box, ANS will help you out with an exchange. It's a Crossfire reg. If you have a problem with the reg, call Crossfire. Send the reg to Crossfire. They will fix it for you.

Quite frankly, when dealing with something that is charged with 4500psi, I'd rather deal with the manufacturer--not a paintball store--online or otherwise.

The idea that some of you guys trust your tanks for to local wrench-wielding minimum wage "techs" at paintball stores is frightening--I'd rather send tank\regulator to the manufacturer for repair, if I need it.

Name brand tank. Name brand regulator. Under $120.

I'd say they knocked this one out of the park.
I agree tanks have always been overpriced!!! glad to see some healthy competition drive down pricing.!!
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:57 PM #60
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Originally Posted by dcbiii View Post
It blows my mind that you guys can't wrap your heads around this.

It's a carbon fiber bottle from Inocom.

Same guys that made the Smart Parts bottles, the DXS bottles, the SLY bottles, the CP bottles, and a million other brands. I have never seen one with a <del>****</del>ty gelcoat, I have never seen one delaminate, and I've never seen one "fail". They are, in my opinion, the best brand made.

My Ninja bottle from Luxfer ("the Grey Ghost") has a tacky gelcoat. Like, if you leave it on your car dash by accident in the heat, it will peel away your dash coating when you move the bottle. This doesn't compromise the safety of the bottle, but still a little frustrating.

My Guerilla bottle (made by Gayston) began to delaminate. Yes, you heard it right. The <del>****</del>ing fibers began to UNWIND from the exterior of the bottle. Guerilla's customer service department told me to pound sand, and left me high and dry. (Thanks guys!)

If you have a problem with the bottle out of the box, ANS will help you out with an exchange. It's a Crossfire reg. If you have a problem with the reg, call Crossfire. Send the reg to Crossfire. They will fix it for you.

Quite frankly, when dealing with something that is charged with 4500psi, I'd rather deal with the manufacturer--not a paintball store--online or otherwise.

The idea that some of you guys trust your tanks for to local wrench-wielding minimum wage "techs" at paintball stores is frightening--I'd rather send tank\regulator to the manufacturer for repair, if I need it.

Name brand tank. Name brand regulator. Under $120.

I'd say they knocked this one out of the park.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:13 PM #61
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Guerilla customer service department told me to pound sand, and left me high and dry. (Thanks guys!)

The idea that some of you guys trust your tanks for to local wrench-wielding minimum wage "techs" at paintball stores is frightening--I'd rather send tank\regulator to the manufacturer for repair, if I need it.
Not surprising that GA told you to pound sand, I'm assuming post-Colby? That seems out of character for Dan...

Regarding the "wrench-wielding minimum wage 'tech'" crack, some of us actually know what we're doing and was mildly offensive. I happen to have the full trust of the staff at Ninja. That type f sweeping generalization is unnecessary in my mind.

For my money and for something as potentially dangerous as an air system I would much rather buy a full Ninja/Crossfire/Guerilla system. Should something happen then I only need to deal with one company.
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Old 08-26-2012, 08:25 AM #62
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This does have a new feature: It's cheaper.
That's not a new feature

Why bother? When IBM came out with their first PC, they almost exclusively used off the shelf parts to build it. Nobody got up in arms about how they were cheating and needed to set a bunch of money on fire to get to the same result.

You mean when most machine code was proprietary to the manufacture? You mean when they took COTS parts and made something that functioned different?

I find it very funny that the people who enjoy the fruits of a capitalist society are complaining because a company they dislike had a clever idea. Computers, cell phones, televisions, and DVD players are all inexpensive because of this type of competition....
you mean its cheaper because the cost of manufacturing parts has come down drastically?
responses in red. ANS gear isn't competing with other manufactures, they are taking advantage of wholesale pricing. It's almost counterfeiting.
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Old 08-26-2012, 08:51 AM #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcbiii View Post
If you have a problem with the bottle out of the box, ANS will help you out with an exchange. It's a Crossfire reg. If you have a problem with the reg, call Crossfire. Send the reg to Crossfire. They will fix it for you.

Quite frankly, when dealing with something that is charged with 4500psi, I'd rather deal with the manufacturer--not a paintball store--online or otherwise.
I understand you'd rather deal the with manufacturer, but you just said in this case that you would have to deal with ANS.

First, many people don't want to deal with ANS at all. Second, with ANS's history of "Sorry, we can't help you, contact the manufacturer" I worry about this. Has anyone ever dealt with Innocom, or even Carlton or Luxifer for that matter? I've not heard of it. Also, if ANS damages the reg or bottle when assembling this, who do you deal with?

Quote:
The idea that some of you guys trust your tanks for to local wrench-wielding minimum wage "techs" at paintball stores is frightening--I'd rather send tank\regulator to the manufacturer for repair, if I need it.
But you trust ANS? I've been to fields with techs who've been through more actual training from manufacturers than ANS "tech's" have read the instructions from companies.
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Racso is offline   Reply With Quote
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