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Old 08-22-2012, 04:58 PM #22
Iamamartianchurch
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R2-D2 View Post
"America is a land of immigrants. Legal immigration should focus on making it easier and simpler for willing workers to come here with a temporary work visa, pay taxes, contribute to society, and fill jobs as the market demands."

These are points of emphasis that I think should not be overlooked. Claiming he has an "open border" policy is misleading.
That is open borders. The only difference is on documentation of who is and isn't in the country.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:18 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
That is open borders. The only difference is on documentation of who is and isn't in the country.
So what do you call our current immigration policy? open-but-prohibitive borders?

I actually agree with him the least on drugs/immigration, but I still understand his point. I've accepted that there will be no perfect candidate, but I do like this guy. His fed reform is much more practical than Ron Paul's elimination.

Also, anyone who hasn't tried this, you should
http://www.isidewith.com/

Currently, amongst internet users who have found this site, Obama has the most red states, followed by Gary Johnson. Romney is getting blasted by internet users, of course. GJ is even outperforming Ron Paul substantially.

(click the states or the candidates for distributions)

I find this hilarious.
4chan sides with Gary Johnson, 61%
offtopic, reddit, and youtube really like him as well.

Last edited by R2-D2 : 08-22-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:50 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R2-D2 View Post
Also, anyone who hasn't tried this, you should
http://www.isidewith.com/
I tried the link for giggles.

I scored 93% in favor of Ron Paul, and 87% in favor of Gary Johnson.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:37 PM #25
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Honestly, I think as many people should vote straight libertarian tickets as possible. Republicans suck, just vote libertarian all the way.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:16 PM #26
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Just because I don't want to vote for the lesser of two evils,

Doesn't mean I want to vote for the lesser of two greats.


RON PAUL 2012
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:06 PM #27
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GJ makes Romney look approachable. He's not great.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:27 PM #28
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Honestly, I think as many people should vote straight libertarian tickets as possible. Republicans suck, just vote libertarian all the way.
We don't exactly have Republicans anymore. Just these weird religious warhawks.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:14 AM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R2-D2 View Post
...I don't know how to address military suicide.. I'm personally sick and tired of our men and women being killed by the people they're trying to train. The land of Afghanistan is a lost cause, and it isn't our duty to improve those peoples' lives. Make it clear, our ultimate response to any US-terrorist attack will be swift and vast. I'm not talking about some half-assed goose chase and occupation; I'm talking about a nuclear detonation.
I'll take a shot at it:
Our Department of Defense should just go ahead and change its name to the Department of Offense, or at least back to the Department of War, because its primary function ceased to be defending the US a long, long time ago.

Our interventions in the name of "Democracy" have consistently blown up in our faces, yet we refuse to learn. We gave aid to both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. Our interference in Iran led to the state of affairs that exists between Iran and the West today. Virtually all of the boogeymen our government tells us we need to fight are a product (directly or indirectly) of our own foreign policy mistakes. Russia is a shadow of its former menacing self, and China is as much a trading partner as it is an ideological enemy. Neither of them is likely to go to war against us.

The solutions to the hatred and will to do us harm that exist in the world that are offered by both the Democrats (although they would steadfastly deny it) and the Republicans (who openly embrace it) are more interventions, more global military presence, more wars, and more spending on a bloated military we can't afford. Anyone with any common sense can see that the approach we've been taking isn't working. All we're doing is creating more enemies. If we stopped invading countries over internal problems, and stopped stationing our troops on territory that isn't ours, maybe people wouldn't hate us so much that they're willing to fill their underpants with explosives...

To the neocon mind, reducing our military presence worldwide is "suicide" because these people hate us for our freedom (not because we shoot cruise missiles into their neighborhoods), and will surely kill us all if we stop invading their countries, overthrowing governments, etc.
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Last edited by kjjm4 : 08-23-2012 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:10 AM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R2-D2 View Post
So what do you call our current immigration policy? open-but-prohibitive borders?

I actually agree with him the least on drugs/immigration, but I still understand his point. I've accepted that there will be no perfect candidate, but I do like this guy. His fed reform is much more practical than Ron Paul's elimination.

Also, anyone who hasn't tried this, you should
http://www.isidewith.com/

Currently, amongst internet users who have found this site, Obama has the most red states, followed by Gary Johnson. Romney is getting blasted by internet users, of course. GJ is even outperforming Ron Paul substantially.

(click the states or the candidates for distributions)

I find this hilarious.
4chan sides with Gary Johnson, 61%
offtopic, reddit, and youtube really like him as well.
Do we have quotas from each nation or is it open to whoever so long as you go through the system? It seems the only issue on the table is documenting immigrants. Other than that, welcome to Amerika.
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:29 PM #31
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Hey R2, do you think that Romeny and Obama are exactly the same?
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:54 PM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch

Do we have quotas from each nation or is it open to whoever so long as you go through the system? It seems the only issue on the table is documenting immigrants. Other than that, welcome to Amerika.
Not sure... It groups by state, so I'd imagine it tracks IP registration or something. Can't check for citizens though, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swerve22
Hey R2, do you think that Romeny and Obama are exactly the same?
No I don't think they're necessarily the same, but I'd argue their performance will be similar. It's kinda hard to predict though. I find obama's platform to be extremely weak - very little to run on from the last 4 years, so I would expect a muddy, slanderous campaign against Romney right after the gop convention (I know it's started already, but it'll get more intense). I know Romney also hasn't taken very many hard stances on things, electing to wade around tough questions to appeal to as many voters as possible. His strategy isn't working. If Obama didn't have such a low approval rating, he'd be blowing Romney out at the polls. I think Romney may be one of the most disliked pres candidate ever, and not just of his own faults. The GOP is attempting to alienate itself from mainstream Americans under the guise of religious conservatism, while being liberal on big government, allowing tax breaks to their corporate donors, and encouraging the war machine. I identify as Protestant, but there cannot be religious basis for lawmaking. the GOP has to get out from under that way of thinking, or they'll be completely left in the last century.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:08 PM #33
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I mean as far as who we let in. If we are indiscriminate it could be said that we have open borders. We only ask that they be registered. If this is true, we ought to do away with the application process entirely. The only remaining merit the process would serve is to check criminal history. I'm not sure how effective that is. Specially from third world nations.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:09 PM #34
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The GOP's religious nutbag problem exists because it's hard to win a Republican primary without the evangelical vote in a lot of states. More moderate candidates like Romney have to alter their views to suit the whackos if they want to be able to compete with genuine whackos like Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachman. Santorum and Bachman should never have been viable candidates, but because of the Evangelical Christian wing of the Republican party, they were.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:44 PM #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch
I mean as far as who we let in. If we are indiscriminate it could be said that we have open borders. We only ask that they be registered. If this is true, we ought to do away with the application process entirely. The only remaining merit the process would serve is to check criminal history. I'm not sure how effective that is. Specially from third world nations.
lol I misinterpreted your statement... I thought you were asking about the isidewith questionnaire results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjjm4
The GOP's religious nutbag problem exists because it's hard to win a Republican primary without the evangelical vote in a lot of states. More moderate candidates like Romney have to alter their views to suit the whackos if they want to be able to compete with genuine whackos like Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachman. Santorum and Bachman should never have been viable candidates, but because of the Evangelical Christian wing of the Republican party, they were.
Romney is a Mormon. I bet he's a closet fanatic. I have spoken to many people who think santorum was acting, especially based on his previous voting record. it's amazing he got the traction he did.

I fully support religious zealots and their right to practice. I just don't think it's appropriate to base law/politics on those policies. People gotta understand the US isn't a theocracy, it's focus is protecting freedom and its citizens.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:53 PM #36
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Quote:
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...I fully support religious zealots and their right to practice. I just don't think it's appropriate to base law/politics on those policies. People gotta understand the US isn't a theocracy, it's focus is protecting freedom and its citizens.
Same. I go to church every Sunday, and I read the Bible on a regular basis. I think abortion and homosexuality are wrong... BUT I don't think everybody else should be forced to conform to my belief system, nor do I believe that giving people the freedom to choose to commit acts that I happen to believe are immoral is wrong either.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:01 PM #37
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lol I misinterpreted your statement... I thought you were asking about the isidewith questionnaire results.



Romney is a Mormon. I bet he's a closet fanatic. I have spoken to many people who think santorum was acting, especially based on his previous voting record. it's amazing he got the traction he did.

I fully support religious zealots and their right to practice. I just don't think it's appropriate to base law/politics on those policies. People gotta understand the US isn't a theocracy, it's focus is protecting freedom and its citizens.
Ah OK. That explains your response. For the record this doesn't reflect my views on the borders.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:03 PM #38
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Same. I go to church every Sunday, and I read the Bible on a regular basis. I think abortion and homosexuality are wrong... BUT I don't think everybody else should be forced to conform to my belief system, nor do I believe that giving people the freedom to choose to commit acts that I happen to believe are immoral is wrong either.
So if I were to understand your position, I could say that a just society is not one based on objective order (God) but individual perspective(relative)?
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:17 PM #39
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Candidates you side with...

98%
Gary Johnson
Gary Johnson

on economic, foreign policy, domestic policy, healthcare, science, environmental, and immigration issues

97%
Ron Paul
Ron Paul

on economic, foreign policy, domestic policy, healthcare, immigration, and social issues
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:23 PM #40
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I don't mean to jump in, but if that question was posed to me, I would argue that American society has its government, but the church of any religion is separate. The christian church teaches the way its people should live their lives, and sort of acts like its own government where its people aren't bound to societal authority, but God. Obviously there cannot be open contradictions that break a government's law, but I can't think of good examples of those right now. This isn't how the government has worked over history, but I think that's how it is written. Is this how I think society should be? I don't really know. When it comes to winning a presidential election, this is how you HAVE to see it (if not now, in a few years). A democratic government is a mixture of the viewpoints held by its citizens, with care taken to protect individual's liberties.

In the US, even if we were founded as a Christian nation, we were founded as a religiously free nation, and we have to understand that we will have a very diverse set of beliefs, as well as those who don't believe in anything. Laws can't be made constitutionally enforcing one religion over another, and that's just how it has to be as written constitutionally. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it shouldn't be legal for others.

Regarding immigration, I think I mentioned earlier that immigration/drugs are two of the subjects I am not 100% with GJ on, I just think his stances are something I can get behind, and I can see his point on both of these issues. The benefits are there, as are negatives, but I don't see these as the pertinent issues facing us in 2012. I think as a whole, he is the best candidate overall, and I support many of his stances.
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:50 PM #41
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Quote:
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So if I were to understand your position, I could say that a just society is not one based on objective order (God) but individual perspective(relative)?
Not necessarily. I believe that there are some absolutes. Murder is always wrong, theft is always wrong, assault is always wrong, etc. I think a just society is one that protects the personal and property rights of individuals, but errs on the side of being permissive of behaviors that don't violate other people's rights. Basically if something isn't causing harm (pissing them off or offending their sensibilities doesn't count) to somebody else, then people ought to be free to do it.
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:36 AM #42
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^libertarian right there
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