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Old 08-23-2012, 01:22 PM #106
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Most moderates I've met, and this forum is no exception, are Leftists who think themselves superior for not blatantly choosing a side. Even though they have. I cant think of a single Rightist moderate. Moderates in the purest sense of the term are even harder to come by.
That's true in my experience as well - saying "moderate" is used by political cover often, particularly from the left. I think what I was describing are people who say they are "moderate" in political discussions (at parites, face to face, places besides internet forums, etc.) to avoid taking sides or being seen as offensive to one or the other. They decide to support whatever seems like the most mainstream, popular opinion at the time.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:31 PM #107
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The positions are a means to an end treghc. The moderates have no true end for society other than a collection of opinions which usually resembles Left or Right.
Mind defining what you mean by "end?"
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:32 PM #108
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Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
That's true in my experience as well - saying "moderate" is used by political cover often, particularly from the left. I think what I was describing are people who say they are "moderate" in political discussions (at parites, face to face, places besides internet forums, etc.) to avoid taking sides or being seen as offensive to one or the other. They decide to support whatever seems like the most mainstream, popular opinion at the time.
One thing is certain. It is socially unpopular to be viewed as having chosen a side in much of anything. Doing so is contradictory of course. I wish people would be more open and, at the very least, proud in that they have chosen a side. After all, is it not good to have made ones mind up about something?
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:35 PM #109
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Mind defining what you mean by "end?"
The actualization of the left or the right civilization. The higher goals if you will. Reference a preceding post (might be on another page) for a loose breakdown of left vs right society.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:50 PM #110
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The actualization of the left or the right civilization. The higher goals if you will. Reference a preceding post (might be on another page) for a loose breakdown of left vs right society.
And what stops a moderate's ideologies from being a higher goal than that of the left or right?

It seems to me that you're issuing drastic change is a higher goal when it could simply be that maybe drastic change isn't required for a higher goal. Maybe a progress to a very specific, defining point is all that's needed and that very point can lie in between the proposed ideologies of left and right.

I don't mean to be an annoyance. I'm attempting to understand what exactly you mean because I don't quite agree with you. I'm also just being myself and challenging your proposal
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:57 PM #111
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And what stops a moderate's ideologies from being a higher goal than that of the left or right?

It seems to me that you're issuing drastic change is a higher goal when it could simply be that maybe drastic change isn't required for a higher goal. Maybe a progress to a very specific, defining point is all that's needed and that very point can lie in between the proposed ideologies of left and right.

I don't mean to be an annoyance. I'm attempting to understand what exactly you mean because I don't quite agree with you. I'm also just being myself and challenging your proposal
Yeah I know Mr devils advocate.

Alright there are those three possiblilities for the moderate or centrist(better term I suppose). Insincerity, ignorance, Disillusionment.

The ignorant moderate is one whose higher goals, when properly reduced, align with either left or right. They merely don't see it as such.

The disillusioned moderate is one whose higher goals are agnostic and merely favor different sets of means as the ends themselves.

The insincere moderate is one whose higher goals are known to himself, he merely rejects being labeled and wishes to appear as being superior or enlightened in a sense.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:00 PM #112
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It should be noted that these higher goals are not always explicitly known or even stated. However it is remarkably easy to draw lines through a set of positions to an outcome. This desired outcome is what we can call a goal.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:08 PM #113
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Yeah I know Mr devils advocate.

Alright there are those three possiblilities for the moderate or centrist(better term I suppose). Insincerity, ignorance, Disillusionment.

The ignorant moderate is one whose higher goals, when properly reduced, align with either left or right. They merely don't see it as such.

The disillusioned moderate is one whose higher goals are agnostic and merely favor different sets of means as the ends themselves.

The insincere moderate is one whose higher goals are known to himself, he merely rejects being labeled and wishes to appear as being superior or enlightened in a sense.
Moderates are shades of gray, and not your poor attempts ate denigration. Lfe isn't stark black and white issues kid. The sooner you realize that the less likely you are to have life give you a rude awakening.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:16 PM #114
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Moderates are shades of gray, and not your poor attempts ate denigration. Lfe isn't stark black and white issues kid. The sooner you realize that the less likely you are to have life give you a rude awakening.
Oh look! We have ourselves an Overbear tactician.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:45 PM #115
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Yeah I know Mr devils advocate.

Alright there are those three possiblilities for the moderate or centrist(better term I suppose). Insincerity, ignorance, Disillusionment.

The ignorant moderate is one whose higher goals, when properly reduced, align with either left or right. They merely don't see it as such.

The disillusioned moderate is one whose higher goals are agnostic and merely favor different sets of means as the ends themselves.

The insincere moderate is one whose higher goals are known to himself, he merely rejects being labeled and wishes to appear as being superior or enlightened in a sense.
So, as I've seen you stated before, true moderates/centrists don't actually exist? I'd agree with that.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:56 PM #116
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So, as I've seen you stated before, true moderates/centrists don't actually exist? I'd agree with that.
Essentially yes. It is sort of like good and bad. As much as we hate using the terms, the outcomes are never truly anything but. This is only relevant to outcomes. The only true grey areas are in the actions. Or, in this case, the choice of policy. Notwithstanding that the desired outcome typically, but not always, informs the policy.
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:50 PM #117
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So, as I've seen you stated before, true moderates/centrists don't actually exist? I'd agree with that.
No matter what position you take, it can be described as extreme from some other point of view.
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Old 08-23-2012, 05:15 PM #118
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Moderation in politics can be equated to compromise between the two current political parties. Which you know isn't happening and thus the lack of forward movement in resolving this nations problems. Bi partisan politics was the grease that ran this country for the last 100 years. That is until 20 years ago when Newt brought his brand of conservatism into the Republican mainstream.
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:31 PM #119
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Oh look! We have ourselves an Overbear tactician.
Were you not aware that your claims that moderates are irrelevant or attempting to cover their true feelings are insulting?
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:42 AM #120
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Were you not aware that your claims that moderates are irrelevant or attempting to cover their true feelings are insulting?
Let me break down Overbears tactics.

1. Quote a poster with whom you disagree.

2. Vague response loosely related to the topic, but by no means engage in the conversation. Do not dissect the opposing position, do not show how the position is wrong. You need only say that it is not correct in as much colorful language as you can muster.

3. Call poster ignorant.

4. Assume age of poster is young and call a child.

5. Top off the cake with another vague statement about life.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:49 AM #121
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Moderation in politics can be equated to compromise between the two current political parties. Which you know isn't happening and thus the lack of forward movement in resolving this nations problems. Bi partisan politics was the grease that ran this country for the last 100 years. That is until 20 years ago when Newt brought his brand of conservatism into the Republican mainstream.
Glad you decided to engage. I agree that moderation in politics is as you described. Considering the Democratic and republican parties are not as dissimilar as they are similar, the bi partisan solution my have some merit. Unlike the two dominant parties, the dominant political dichotomy of our day cannot coexist within one nation. Coexist meaning each is represented in the realm of public decision making.

I think it is silly to some extent that two parties on the same side of the isle or spectrum are so polarized. My understanding of American history points to partisanship being a reoccurring thing. That seems to be an artifact of the system.

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