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Old 08-22-2012, 02:43 PM #85
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So since it doesn't have a name its not a thing? Classic human flaw imo.

A belief system doesn't have to be legitimate in others eyes for it to be a belief system. Moderates don't always land right smack in the middle of the spectrum. It also depends on if you view a political spectrum as linear with anarchism on the right and totalitarian communism on the left in which case everyone in between is a moderate...
They have a name which we call moderates. Or, those who side with neither the left or the right, nor offer a position independent of left and right. It isn't so much the parts that are of concern, but their sum.

I view the split as I defined it in the OP. When all is both broken down and viewed as a whole. Here is why:

Anarchism as in the lack of a State is compatible with the right. Social anarchy is not however. The right believes in social hierarchy culminating at the tip of the pyramid. Borders and Nation are drawn henceforth by human borders. Populations occupying land.

Social contract theory, a creation of the left, necessitates the existence of a State, the political agreement between individuals acting within their own rational self interest. Henceforth, all borders are viewed as political agreements. Social anarchy is desirable as per individual autonomy. It can be said that the egalitarian State must be totalitarian in order to maintain the condition of equality.
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:47 PM #86
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What's wrong with not subscribing specifically to one overall ideology in which there is one panacea for all problems relating to government? I don't see wanting government intervention/control in some places and not others "exactly between republicans and democrats" as if it were some wishy washy compromise.
Imo many are "moderate" simply because they don't want to get lumped in to this group or that, or don't want to be labled as extreme by someobdy else.
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:49 PM #87
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What's wrong with not subscribing specifically to one overall ideology in which there is one panacea for all problems relating to government? I don't see wanting government intervention/control in some places and not others "exactly between republicans and democrats" as if it were some wishy washy compromise.
It is about building and maintaining civilization. The form of government or lack there of is as is required.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:04 PM #88
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I'm sorry I misread the first paragraph. A few cups of coffee later and it is clear now.

The middle is contingent on the duality regardless of perception. Although I hate to think of the Left and Right as having degrees. I feel that a political view will always represent one or the other when broken down into it's elements. I understand that this negates the middle from existing entirely which is perhaps the Truth of the matter.
Well, my point is that the current middle is not necessarily always the "middle" of the current duality. It is for the time being, but as we've seen, the duality shifts over time, thus the person who use to be in the middle is no longer in that same spot. I'm simply stating that middle-goers have every bit as valid an ideology as the outlying extremes for the current duality of the political spectrum. Today's extremes can be tomorrow's middle. These middle-goers don't change their beliefs or core values. Nobody really does. They are no more susceptible to such change than any extremist. To consider them worthless is a fallacy. They are every bit as important as any extremist. Their views and intended goals are just as valid as anyone else's.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:09 PM #89
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Imo many are "moderate" simply because they don't want to get lumped in to this group or that, or don't want to be labled as extreme by someobdy else.
I hate to sound like a dick but its almost like you stereotype everyone except republicans.

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Well, my point is that the current middle is not necessarily always the "middle" of the current duality. It is for the time being, but as we've seen, the duality shifts over time, thus the person who use to be in the middle is no longer in that same spot. I'm simply stating that middle-goers have every bit as valid an ideology as the outlying extremes for the current duality of the political spectrum. Today's extremes can be tomorrow's middle. These middle-goers don't change their beliefs or core values. Nobody really does. They are no more susceptible to such change than any extremist. To consider them worthless is a fallacy. They are every bit as important as any extremist. Their views and intended goals are just as valid as anyone else's.
There you go. And if we are talking about who is really worthless I'd say its people who vote exclusively for one party regardless of candidates.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:12 PM #90
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Well, my point is that the current middle is not necessarily always the "middle" of the current duality. It is for the time being, but as we've seen, the duality shifts over time, thus the person who use to be in the middle is no longer in that same spot. I'm simply stating that middle-goers have every bit as valid an ideology as the outlying extremes for the current duality of the political spectrum. Today's extremes can be tomorrow's middle. These middle-goers don't change their beliefs or core values. Nobody really does. They are no more susceptible to such change than any extremist. To consider them worthless is a fallacy. They are every bit as important as any extremist. Their views and intended goals are just as valid as anyone else's.
A view is not valid for the sake of someone holding it, but besides that.

Left and Right do not change but the pendulum swings at varying degrees between them. This swinging is politics and party. The subject of this thread id not so much those who fall in the middle in relation to the position of the pendulum. It is about the lack of choice between left and right in their totality.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:15 PM #91
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Do you guys not understand that in a rightist society, there is no such thing as political party? Stop talking about parties already. I thought we got over this on the first page. Republicans and democrats are not very good representation of left or right.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:21 PM #92
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I keep bringing them up because it seems everyone thinks moderates choose their position based on compromise of the leading political ideologies in their country. It's not so. If the political parties were communist vs socialist in this country id be considered far right.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:25 PM #93
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I keep bringing them up because it seems everyone thinks moderates choose their position based on compromise of the leading political ideologies in their country. It's not so. If the political parties were communist vs socialist in this country id be considered far right.
Parties are a means to an end in a republic or a democracy. Left and right are not actually relative. This is key.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:27 PM #94
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So then where does the argument against the moderate come from? By your definition we are not really moderate. Just labeled so because of where we happen to fall in American politics.
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:36 PM #95
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So then where does the argument against the moderate come from? By your definition we are not really moderate. Just labeled so because of where we happen to fall in American politics.
Dude I already answered this like 10 times already.

From the fact that the moderate believes in compromise between diametrically opposed wellsprings of ideology.

Look at it this way. The moderate sees parts not their sum. This policy here, that policy from there.

For civilization, the whole is the goal in as much as it is the reason for policy.

I guarantee one thing. The sum of the moderates choices will always represent more of one end of the spectrum than the other. Even though the parts may be a piecemeal of each spectrum. If you could reconcile left and right, there would be no issue here.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:01 PM #96
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Look at it this way. The moderate sees parts not their sum. This policy here, that policy from there.
The sum of different parts is a different sum. Perhaps a moderate does see a sum, it's simply not lined up with extreme ideals...?

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For civilization, the whole is the goal in as much as it is the reason for policy.
The whole of a moderate is different from the whole of a conservative just as the whole of a conservative is different from the whole of a liberal. What intrinsic values are necessary for one's whole or beliefs to be more valid than another? They all strive to achieve goals. Why is one set of goals more valid than another?
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:14 PM #97
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The sum of different parts is a different sum. Perhaps a moderate does see a sum, it's simply not lined up with extreme ideals...?



The whole of a moderate is different from the whole of a conservative just as the whole of a conservative is different from the whole of a liberal. What intrinsic values are necessary for one's whole or beliefs to be more valid than another? They all strive to achieve goals. Why is one set of goals more valid than another?
This would all be true if the moderate wasn't sourcing both. There has yet to be a demonstration of a sum of chosen Parts that resembles neither left nor right. Consequently it would not be considered moderate would it? It would merely be something else.

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Old 08-22-2012, 06:14 PM #98
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This would all be true if the moderate wasn't sourcing both. There has yet to be a demonstration of a sum of chosen Parts that resembles neither left nor right. Consequently it would not be considered moderate would it? It would merely be something else.
The extremes source each other as well. They simply hold different positions; no different than how a moderate holds different positions.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:10 AM #99
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In my mind moderates are less involved people with few core ideological underpinnings to prevent them from being swayed by the attractive, flashy, or pursuasive arguments of the day.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:01 AM #100
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The extremes source each other as well. They simply hold different positions; no different than how a moderate holds different positions.
The positions are a means to an end treghc. The moderates have no true end for society other than a collection of opinions which usually resembles Left or Right.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:04 AM #101
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In my mind moderates are less involved people with few core ideological underpinnings to prevent them from being swayed by the attractive, flashy, or pursuasive arguments of the day.
Most moderates I've met, and this forum is no exception, are Leftists who think themselves superior for not blatantly choosing a side. Even though they have. I cant think of a single Rightist moderate. Moderates in the purest sense of the term are even harder to come by.

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Old 08-23-2012, 11:24 AM #102
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Dude I already answered this like 10 times already.

From the fact that the moderate believes in compromise between diametrically opposed wellsprings of ideology.

Look at it this way. The moderate sees parts not their sum. This policy here, that policy from there.

For civilization, the whole is the goal in as much as it is the reason for policy.

I guarantee one thing. The sum of the moderates choices will always represent more of one end of the spectrum than the other. Even though the parts may be a piecemeal of each spectrum. If you could reconcile left and right, there would be no issue here.
Okay this I understand. If you view a moderate as someone who claims to be smack dab in the middle of a map they are probably not being truthful.

However to sit here and say there are no rightist moderates or they are not involved really shows the ignorance of the people in this place. I can't help but laugh at how much time everyone looks to stereotype the character of posters in this forum. Really makes it a waste of time.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:59 AM #103
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Okay this I understand. If you view a moderate as someone who claims to be smack dab in the middle of a map they are probably not being truthful.

However to sit here and say there are no rightist moderates or they are not involved really shows the ignorance of the people in this place. I can't help but laugh at how much time everyone looks to stereotype the character of posters in this forum. Really makes it a waste of time.
It could be that they aren't being truthful or they simply don't know or they actually are sitting on the fence.

I said I haven't seen or met one. Not that they don't exist. Certainly not here they don't.
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:10 PM #104
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Tsbalr120 claims to be a centrist, leans to the right from what I can tell
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:21 PM #105
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Tsbalr120 claims to be a centrist, leans to the right from what I can tell
I have yet to see any evidence. I suppose he may take some positions typical of the right, although he seems to desire pluralism which is atypical of the right.
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