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Old 08-20-2012, 04:16 PM #43
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
This country was founded on "NO taxation without representation". I don't think the situation we have gotten ourselves into is that different.
Fixed.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:28 PM #44
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"This country was founded in response to 'taxation without representation'" was how this was supposed to be read. Thanks, I guess.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:03 PM #45
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
That's a ****ing joke and we both know it. Blame apathy or blame the system, but clearly the people are not being equally represented; only the elite class is. The electoral system allows us to pick one from the elite class or another. Is it "within the rules"? Most of the time. Does that make it just? I would say no.

This country was founded on "taxation without representation". I don't think the situation we have gotten ourselves into is that different.
Note the use of past tense. I'm not telling you our current state of affairs is just or desirable.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:10 PM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
That's a ****ing joke and we both know it. Blame apathy or blame the system, but clearly the people are not being equally represented; only the elite class is. The electoral system allows us to pick one from the elite class or another. Is it "within the rules"? Most of the time. Does that make it just? I would say no.

This country was founded on "taxation without representation". I don't think the situation we have gotten ourselves into is that different.
So why are you pushing for more control away from your domain vice in your backyard? Hell, even Hunger Games preached against it.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:26 PM #47
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So why are you pushing for more control away from your domain vice in your backyard?
In theory, I believe a government should look like the government I advocate. I like talking about theory and ideals.

Is it a bad thing that our government is only representing the elite class? I believe it is. But the fault is ours. We cannot expect our government to support us well when we have a completely uninformed population with an embarrassingly low voter turnout. Our situation sucks, but at this point, the only thing worse than a Congress that doesn't represent the people would be a Congress that represents our people. In my opinion, the solution is an informed electorate which would eventually solve this problem as well.

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Hell, even Hunger Games preached against it.
I don't get this reference. Haven't read/seen it. I probably will see it eventually, just haven't had time.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:40 PM #48
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Books are better than movie, unless you wait for all 3 movies to come out on DVD.

The solution starts with local governmental involvement. The lack there of is the cause for the vast majority of issues we talk about in this forum.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:49 PM #49
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The solution starts with local governmental involvement. The lack there of is the cause for the vast majority of issues we talk about in this forum.
I would just leave it as political involvement period. But I agree.

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Books are better than movie, unless you wait for all 3 movies to come out on DVD.
Good to know.
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:04 PM #50
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We live in an age where it could not be easier to be informed and your solution is to get these people more involved in the decision making?
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:59 PM #51
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We live in an age where it could not be easier to be informed and your solution is to get these people more involved in the decision making?
Well I think the first solution would be to think about why people become so disengaged with their politics in the first place. And then hopefully find a way to make that not happen.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:09 AM #52
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Well I think the first solution would be to think about why people become so disengaged with their politics in the first place. And then hopefully find a way to make that not happen.
Well I guess my gripe is, its never been easier for people to research and educate themselves literally at their finger tips. Yet we have, which this forum has no shortage of, both Ill informed as well as thoroughly researched morons. I mean, there's really no excuse for the former and the latter is due to an array of causes. So what I'm getting at is, I'm not sure I want to convince these people to get active in making the big decisions. I'm not sure I want their will represented.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:29 AM #53
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Well I guess my gripe is, its never been easier for people to research and educate themselves literally at their finger tips. Yet we have, which this forum has no shortage of, both Ill informed as well as thoroughly researched morons. I mean, there's really no excuse for the former and the latter is due to an array of causes. So what I'm getting at is, I'm not sure I want to convince these people to get active in making the big decisions. I'm not sure I want their will represented.
So because people have the ability to be informed and aren't you wouldn't trust those people if they were informed? Do you not see the whole in that logic?

But yes clearly there is a problem when we live in such an easy world to get informed but people do the exact opposite. However, I'm not content to simply write people off because of that. I believe we need to figure out why people are so apathetic towards politics and then change that.
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Old 08-21-2012, 12:10 PM #54
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So because people have the ability to be informed and aren't you wouldn't trust those people if they were informed? Do you not see the whole in that logic?

But yes clearly there is a problem when we live in such an easy world to get informed but people do the exact opposite. However, I'm not content to simply write people off because of that. I believe we need to figure out why people are so apathetic towards politics and then change that.
If I saw the same hole you did I wouldn't have posted what I said. I think the state of affairs speaks more towards both our culture and the quality of these people rather than the lack of possession of knowledge. I'm not confident that stuffing these heads with information is going to do a lot of good. Which brings me to my next point.

If we've identified that the problem is people arent getting informed then it is poor problem solving skills at this point to say the solution is for them to get more informed.


I can't answer why people feel apathetic. I personally don't vote because I dont believe I have the right to. I have my area of expertise and contribution, there is where I draw the line. Our current political sphere realm whatever looks like a circus to me, not sure if others see the same, but I'm willing to bet that voter apathy has something to do with this state of affairs.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:48 PM #55
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If I saw the same hole you did I wouldn't have posted what I said. I think the state of affairs speaks more towards both our culture and the quality of these people rather than the lack of possession of knowledge. I'm not confident that stuffing these heads with information is going to do a lot of good. Which brings me to my next point.
Can culture not be changed? Can the character of people not be improved?

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If we've identified that the problem is people arent getting informed then it is poor problem solving skills at this point to say the solution is for them to get more informed.
But that's not what I'm advocating. As I have said, "I believe we need to figure out why people are so apathetic towards politics and then change that." If it's the culture, the culture needs to change. If it's the structures and systems, they can be altered.

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I can't answer why people feel apathetic. I personally don't vote because I dont believe I have the right to. I have my area of expertise and contribution, there is where I draw the line. Our current political sphere realm whatever looks like a circus to me, not sure if others see the same, but I'm willing to bet that voter apathy has something to do with this state of affairs.
I wouldn't say that's wrong, but do you believe that cannot be fixed?

(also, I am not staying within the bounds of our legal code. i don't care much for it anyways. i think part of our problem is the structure of our democracy. i believe democracy can work. but this isn't how.)
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Old 08-21-2012, 04:02 PM #56
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Can culture not be changed? Can the character of people not be improved?



But that's not what I'm advocating. As I have said, "I believe we need to figure out why people are so apathetic towards politics and then change that." If it's the culture, the culture needs to change. If it's the structures and systems, they can be altered.



I wouldn't say that's wrong, but do you believe that cannot be fixed?

(also, I am not staying within the bounds of our legal code. i don't care much for it anyways. i think part of our problem is the structure of our democracy. i believe democracy can work. but this isn't how.)
1) culture: yes. Character: yes. Character is in relation to culture. Let's say ability is the other factor.

2) you said the solution is an informed electorate. This is the basis I am using. Plato accurately describes the failure of democracy. I'm sure you're well aware though.

3) I'm going to say that at this stage of the game, the circus cannot be fixed but the problem will solve itself in the end.

I try to avoid stayinh within any framework when dealing with politics.
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Old 08-21-2012, 04:09 PM #57
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2) you said the solution is an informed electorate. This is the basis I am using. Plato accurately describes the failure of democracy. I'm sure you're well aware though
Yup, the informed electorate is what we need. The means to get there are not as simple as just informing the electorate though. Does that make sense?

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3) I'm going to say that at this stage of the game, the circus cannot be fixed but the problem will solve itself in the end.
Elaborate on that.
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Old 08-21-2012, 04:12 PM #58
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Why is it necessary for one to be on either end of the spectrum? Could the middle point not also be it's own ideology?
Because if either of the extremes moves position the "middle", by default, moves as well.

Example - "centrist" in the US staking out a position between republican and democrat is a lot different than "centrist" in say the Weimar Republic where the big fight was between communists and national socialists.
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Old 08-21-2012, 04:15 PM #59
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I prefer to live in a society where we treat each other with respect.

I prefer to live in a society where religion, race, sexual preference, and creed are irrelevant, and all people are given the same level of tolerance and the same level of opportunities.

I prefer to live in a society that values education, science, and the progression of mankind at every opportunity possible.

I prefer to live in a society where its government is for the people, a government that is active yet responsible, and will provide a reasonable safety net is established if you fall on hard times.

I prefer to live in a society that strives for the worlds finest national defense, without promoting offense abroad.

I prefer to live in a society that is not mocked and ridiculed by foreign nations, and one where we do not scorn others in return.

I prefer to live in a society where effort is rewarded and laziness is shunned; this includes public discourse and government.

I prefer to live in a society where company profits are not placed above the healthcare needs of all of its people.

I'm not sure where I fall on your black and wide dichotomy of philosophical beliefs, but I know that if I meet someone who shares similar values that I do, regardless of their political stance, we can usually find common ground.

Which shoots your theory of impracticality to bits.
Take out the bolded - I agree with everything as well and believe that conservative principles and the principle of prudence are the best means of achieiving all of those goals.

As for the bolded - what happens if you have everything else on the list except for that? Is it really worth possibly giving up all of that to avoid the scorn of those that don't have it?
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Old 08-21-2012, 04:52 PM #60
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Yup, the informed electorate is what we need. The means to get there are not as simple as just informing the electorate though. Does that make sense?
That was more or less what I was getting at. With the added cynicism of questioning the ability of the newly endowed to correlate the information into something of merit.
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Elaborate on that.
We've arrived at the point where the only goal is a negative, freedom. Instead of moving to actualize a positive like order or culture. The elite are not a true elite in the aristocratic sense. They are merely scoundrels who horde wealth from the easily duped underclassmen with simple tastes. They sell freedom but they also believe in it because it enriches them. We are at the point where social class is determined by popularity not ability. This is true in the social/political sense but also in the business sense. Most any successful product line is such because of how easily it satiates the lowest common denominator. When royalty flipped the bill, you got Beethoven and Mozart, the peasants flip the bill and we get Beiber and Minaj.

Sorry I just realized I'm ranting off topic.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:56 PM #61
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Because if either of the extremes moves position the "middle", by default, moves as well.

Example - "centrist" in the US staking out a position between republican and democrat is a lot different than "centrist" in say the Weimar Republic where the big fight was between communists and national socialists.
So, when the extremes move, the person in the middle has to move as well?

Sorry, that's not the case. That person still believes what they believe and though the spectrum may have shifted, that person's spot remains there; it slides against the movement of that spectrum.

Code:
Spectrum 1a * <middle person |--------------| Spectrum 1b * <middle person |--------------| Spectrum 1c * <middle person |--------------------|
I don't see the logic in believing that the middle person's ideologies and beliefs are forced to change in tandem with trending philosophies.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:57 PM #62
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Then that person is no longer in "the middle", they are aligned with one side.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:01 PM #63
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Then that person is no longer in "the middle", they are aligned with one side.
Thus my point of the middle being its own ideology...
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