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Old 08-17-2012, 11:14 AM #1
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Moderates/Independents = Worthless

These two tend to favor compromise as if there is compatibility between left and right.

Left: Pluralism through individual autonomy

Right: Order through centralism.

These two underlying principles are in constant conflict with one another. Because of this conflict, the disillusioned seek the middle of the road. What makes them worthless is not so much that they run from conflict or believe in compromise between diametrically opposed ideologies, it is that they refuse to answer the fundamental question of which type of society they desire to live in.

Moderates as a result tend to be easily swayed by either side because they do not have an alternative to the dominant political dichotomy. In fact, they impede progress towards realization of either end of the spectrum.

Moderates either need to offer us a different road or pick a road to travel on.
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Old 08-17-2012, 12:01 PM #2
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Well, I consider myself a left leaning moderate. Not because I don't pick sides but my opinions on issues are sporadic and not always unique to a single ideology. For example I am strongly pro choice, pro gay marriage, but also pro gun rights and (reasonably) against loose immigration policies. I believe the rich should be taxed at a higher rate compared to the middle class but federal spending must be reduced (although maybe not in the midst of a worldwide recession). I think we need a strong, unifying federal government but states rights are ignored too often (medical marijuana and the alcohol consumption age are two quick examples I'm unhappy with).

It's not like I lean whichever way the wind blows, just that I'm prone to vote for a candidate that represents my views. There hasn't been a conservative that wants actual small government in a while, when that changes I will happily vote republican.
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Old 08-17-2012, 12:57 PM #3
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Just curious, but which sides of the American political spectrum would you classify as left and right?

It seems to me that both Democrats and Republicans are very much in favor of centralizing power at the Federal level. The only time either of them make any reference to the rights of individuals or of the states is when it's convenient to advance their ideology (for example, Democrats call for states rights when it comes to gun control and Republicans do it when it comes to abortion and gay marriage, but only after they've failed to get what they want through federal law).
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:06 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
These two tend to favor compromise as if there is compatibility between left and right.

Left: Pluralism through individual autonomy

Right: Order through centralism.

These two underlying principles are in constant conflict with one another. Because of this conflict, the disillusioned seek the middle of the road. What makes them worthless is not so much that they run from conflict or believe in compromise between diametrically opposed ideologies, it is that they refuse to answer the fundamental question of which type of society they desire to live in.

Moderates as a result tend to be easily swayed by either side because they do not have an alternative to the dominant political dichotomy. In fact, they impede progress towards realization of either end of the spectrum.

Moderates either need to offer us a different road or pick a road to travel on.
As if that would actually happen in the first place with the existence of two diametrically opposed ideologies.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:08 PM #5
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Why is it necessary for one to be on either end of the spectrum? Could the middle point not also be it's own ideology?
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:11 PM #6
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Because martian is going to argue that political ideologies lie along a continuum, and that any other view is assumed to be wrong.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:25 PM #7
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Moreso to the point, if the two ends of the continuum have to disagree with x amount of political points, then can't the middle of said continuum, which disagrees with points from both parties be yet another political ideology?
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:37 PM #8
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Well it would be. In this case, the middle road would be equally Republican and Democrat (or whatever he considers the left/right), and would then be a third ideology.

Martian's taken this to another level, though, and said that there are only two types of society that can possibly exist. Applying the continuum to this idea, where on earth would ideologies such as communism and extreme theocracy fit on it?

Last edited by Xanatos903 : 08-17-2012 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:37 PM #9
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Why is it necessary for one to be on either end of the spectrum? Could the middle point not also be it's own ideology?
Because they are the two dominant forces today. Left and Right. There is no true middle road as the result always end up looking like one or the other.

To be continued in my response to kjim
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:41 PM #10
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Just curious, but which sides of the American political spectrum would you classify as left and right?

It seems to me that both Democrats and Republicans are very much in favor of centralizing power at the Federal level. The only time either of them make any reference to the rights of individuals or of the states is when it's convenient to advance their ideology (for example, Democrats call for states rights when it comes to gun control and Republicans do it when it comes to abortion and gay marriage, but only after they've failed to get what they want through federal law).
I'd consider both Republicans and Democrats to be on the left. Classical and modern liberals. The only vestiges of the republican platform that remotely appear to be rightist are the clinging to tradition and perhaps war hawkishness. Patriotism is allegiance to a nation state as a political entity making it on the left.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:44 PM #11
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Well, I consider myself a left leaning moderate. Not because I don't pick sides but my opinions on issues are sporadic and not always unique to a single ideology. For example I am strongly pro choice, pro gay marriage, but also pro gun rights and (reasonably) against loose immigration policies. I believe the rich should be taxed at a higher rate compared to the middle class but federal spending must be reduced (although maybe not in the midst of a worldwide recession). I think we need a strong, unifying federal government but states rights are ignored too often (medical marijuana and the alcohol consumption age are two quick examples I'm unhappy with).

It's not like I lean whichever way the wind blows, just that I'm prone to vote for a candidate that represents my views. There hasn't been a conservative that wants actual small government in a while, when that changes I will happily vote republican.
Try thinking less about policy but the big picture that informs policy.

Ask yourself this question, what type of society do I want to live in?

Right now we are caught between two competing answers with little in the way of other options.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:45 PM #12
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**** that.

Blindly supporting everything one side does just because thats what the party wants is stupid. We have more than enough gonzos and free enterprises running around. We need more moderates imo.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:46 PM #13
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Well it would be. In this case, the middle road would be equally Republican and Democrat (or whatever he considers the left/right), and would then be a third ideology.

Martian's taken this to another level, though, and said that there are only two types of society that can possibly exist. Applying the continuum to this idea, where on earth would ideologies such as communism and extreme theocracy fit on it?
I stated things as they are. Moderates sit between the left and the right, not independent of it.
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:24 PM #14
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Basically what this guy is saying, is if you aren't the democrat party's *****, or the republican party's *****, you don't have a valid opinion in politics.
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:38 PM #15
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Why is it necessary for one to be on either end of the spectrum? Could the middle point not also be it's own ideology?
I don't think he's arguing that the political spectrum is a continuum. I think his point is that if you imagine the political spectrum as a two or three dimensional space (in fact, higher dimensional) there is no logical or self-consistent point that exists between democrats and republicans because the ideologies are so diametrically opposed. Positions can exist outside of the one-dimensional scale between the two, but to occupy that space is non-sensical.

Not that I agree, but perhaps that's a different way of describing the same thing?
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:47 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
I'd consider both Republicans and Democrats to be on the left. Classical and modern liberals. The only vestiges of the republican platform that remotely appear to be rightist are the clinging to tradition and perhaps war hawkishness. Patriotism is allegiance to a nation state as a political entity making it on the left.
I don't think of the modern, neoconservative Republican as a classical liberal. Not when they've been the architects of such things as the Patriot Act. Individual liberty is one of the foundations of classical liberalism, and I don't see the modern GOP as having much respect for individual liberty.

The choice between Republicans and Democrats boils down to whether you like lots of corporate welfare or lots of social welfare. They're both all about denial of individual liberty, interventionist foreign policy, and wreckless fiscal policy.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:11 PM #17
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I don't think he's arguing that the political spectrum is a continuum. I think his point is that if you imagine the political spectrum as a two or three dimensional space (in fact, higher dimensional) there is no logical or self-consistent point that exists between democrats and republicans because the ideologies are so diametrically opposed. Positions can exist outside of the one-dimensional scale between the two, but to occupy that space is non-sensical.

Not that I agree, but perhaps that's a different way of describing the same thing?
You get it. Although I don't believe that republicans are that representative of the right. I would rather discuss the left and the right as opposed viewpoints.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:13 PM #18
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I don't think of the modern, neoconservative Republican as a classical liberal. Not when they've been the architects of such things as the Patriot Act. Individual liberty is one of the foundations of classical liberalism, and I don't see the modern GOP as having much respect for individual liberty.

The choice between Republicans and Democrats boils down to whether you like lots of corporate welfare or lots of social welfare. They're both all about denial of individual liberty, interventionist foreign policy, and wreckless fiscal policy.
Yeah this is why I didn't mention party because both are perhaps more similar than they are different.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:14 PM #19
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We currently have one of the most polarized Congress's in half a century, with a 10% approval rating (all time low, btw), with a mere 61 bills being passed which is even lower than the infamous 'do nothing' congress.

This deadlock and lack of progress has nothing to do with moderates, so I really do not know what you are talking about.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:52 AM #20
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We currently have one of the most polarized Congress's in half a century, with a 10% approval rating (all time low, btw), with a mere 61 bills being passed which is even lower than the infamous 'do nothing' congress.

This deadlock and lack of progress has nothing to do with moderates, so I really do not know what you are talking about.
This rant isn't about any specific instance or point in history/current affairs. It is about the failure of taking the middle road between Left and Right. Not to be confused with any political party.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:57 AM #21
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This rant isn't about any specific instance or point in history/current affairs. It is about the failure of taking the middle road between Left and Right. Not to be confused with any political party.

How is taking the middle road a failure, when today's Washington establishment, which is the exact opposite of being a moderate/cooperative gov't, is an abject failure?
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