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Old 08-19-2012, 11:37 AM #64
Tafari Makonnen
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Originally Posted by yesme View Post
Well i guess we will see. Anyone got numbers from their last orders from the last couple of years to see if this is in line with training?
In the two orders I looked Into it came to about 50 rounds per officer per month...

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Old 08-19-2012, 01:39 PM #65
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I don't understand the mentality of the people that believe that law enforcement are a bunch of trigger happy *******s just itching for an excuse to shoot everyone they can. Especially in what seems to be the newer generation of officers that the old timers complain so much. A small excerpt from an article I found about the use or non-use of justified deadly force and some responses out of the 15 that replied to that article who happened to be law enforcement.

Restraint in the Use of Deadly Force
In a recent study entitled Restraint in the Use of Deadly Force (created by the same people who compiled the Killed in the Line of Duty (1992), In the Line of Fire (1997), Violent Encounters (2006) and The Deadly Mix (2007) studies take a look at the use and non-use of deadly force by law enforcement officers in the United States). If you aren’t familiar with the aforementioned studies they are available at the FBI website and are a wealth of information for the LE trainer and safety conscious street officer.

The results indicate that 96 percent of the officers involved in the study draw a weapon at least once a year. The study revealed also that 83 percent indicated “that they had been involved in at least one critical incident during their careers.” Of those incidents, 20 percent ended up firing their weapons. 70 percent indicated that they had been in situations where while legally authorized to use deadly force they made the decision not to.

When totaling up the 1,189 situations the officers in the study were involved in where deadly force was authorized it was actually employed only 87 times (7 percent). In the 1,102 (93 percent) other incidents the officers made the decision not to use deadly force. This shows a remarkable level of restrain on the part of the officers in the study, and that translates to same or greater level of restraint by officers on a nation wide basis.


In 41 years of law enforcement, I drawn my weapon many times. In five such encounters, I faced an armed subject. I don't know whether they were more scared than I was, but each chose to drop his weapon and submit to arrest. I had the person's center of mass in my sights, and was taking up the slack on my trigger, but I thank God I ultimately did not have to shoot. One incident involved a junkie who tried to stab me with the can opener on his pocket knife. I was asked by my colleagues why I didn't shoot him, since he had already scratched me with the can opener. My answer was that he was a junkie and I had no trouble holstering my weapon and overpowering him. I thank God regularly that those incidents resolved peacefully and that I did not have to shoot. I am one of the lucky ones.

Yes you are one of the lucky ones brother. But, at least it sounds like you were prepared to fully take up that slack if you had to...Some of these new hires today dont seem to realize how very real that possibility is! They think the firearm is just a counterweight to the radio on the other hip...Current training curriculem is too sterile in my opinion. I wasnt trained to prepare for a "shooting incident" or and "escalation of force"...I was trained to prepare for a gunfight!..A fight for your life, or someone elses life!...and to WIN that fight. And I did twice. I have also never looked at incidents like you described as "I could have shot him", I looked at them as I didnt HAVE to shoot him.

You sir have my respect for doing 41 years in this circus!...I'm out at 25 in 5 years. I've enjoyed it, but it has changed drastically over the last 20 years. Happy retirement to you brother, you definately earned it!


"I didn’t see any weapons or indications that he had one on him. His return to the apartment could mean several things." Officer Wolfe, You didn't shoot because you didn't HAVE to. I have met all types of officers in 38 years including: tough guys, fearful guys, social worker guys, just give me a check guys, lazy guys, squirrel guys, a-hole guys, and some just plain good guys who want to do a good job. Most folks doing this job are good people with different personalities and shooting and killing is not what we want to do. We meet hard core trash who are good for nothing but killing. Will we kill them given the chance? No! Only if we have to! We curse the pukes and the court system and do our job because that is what cops do.

I'm a 30 yr veteran of the circus, I too have faced the challenge, the decision to shoot or not. Had to once, didn't on two occasions.
This shoot don't shoot stuff is all on you, nobody can tell you when to pull that trigger. It is a decision only you alone can make and you live with the outcome right or wrong.
The one thing I will say, It is all about survival, If you truly believe your life or a third party is hanging in the balance on a thread, you got to do the whole survival win thing. You go home, you save a life.
Remember In LE we don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop the threat, if they die as the result of our force that's on them.
Center mass, multiple shots, do whatever it takes. Prepare to win or expect to fail. Tell yourself over and over again, if the time comes I will Survive. I will Win. I will go home. They will not beat me today, Not tomorrow, Not ever..Mind of a Survivor.V1


A few yrs ago I was dispatched to help officers with a man armed with a sword, double headed throwing ax & several long knives. He was off his meds and threatening everyone around. Being the first SWAT guy on scene I had my HK MP5 9mm and we had a several minute standoff. He kept saying everything was a conspiracy and that he was going to die that day. Eventually he started coming straight at us telling me he was going to die & I was going to kill him. We backed up until there was little more room to back (since we were getting closer to civilians and children in the area). We took a stand and I drew an imaginary line in the dirt in my mind saying if he crosses that line I will shoot. He got up to that line and I moved my finger to the trigger and started slowly pressing as tunnel vision kicked in and my heart began to pound in my ears. To my surprise he stopped and yelled "well I guess if your not going to kill me I will give up" I started yelling commands to drop his weapons and crawl towards me. He complied and when he was a safe distance I pinned him down telling him he was ok and we would get him help. One of my crazy times......

Agree with the comments of VON1. I am retired after 37 years total. I've faced 3 situations where deadly force would have been justified, but only shot during one occasion. The other two - there was just something about them, a feeling I guess would be the best description, that it just wasn't the right time.

The Deputy who trained me used to say "Law Enforcement is not about taking lives. It Is about saving lives." But in the same breath that when you walked out that door with a gun on your hip you made sure you were in the right mindset to pull that trigger if you needed to. He is a Marine, Swat, Narc, and undercover..so he was a little cold about how he said it. But hearing that as a "Rookie" it made me think.

I've only drawn my weapon a handful of times but I took a life to defend my own once. Cocained and drunk this guy stole a vehicle, wrecked it, and brought it back. His relative called it in since it was their vehicle and wanted him out and charges pressed for the vehicle. The relative owned the house and told us to go in to get him. So my partner got the ok from the on call supervisor and the C.A. to take him into custody. Being from a small town and having a long history of fights with this guy my partner called me out from home to back him up. We entered the house being told the guy was sleeping in the basement. We're greeted with a shotgun being racked at the doorway. My partner fell over me and took me down with him trying to get back outside. We got outside and I drew my line in the sand. I said to myself "If he comes out that back door with that shotgun raised I will kill him!" I reverse sliced the pie keeping eyes and cover from the doorway while he came up the stairs with the gun. I yelled mult. times "Police! Drop the weapon!" He kept replying in a smug tone "What?" knowing damn well what we were saying. He walked out the back door with the gun raised and started to swing it towards us. I ended the threat right then and there. I just thank God I positioned the patrol car camera right on that door. The Grand Jury only lasted half a day with the irrefutable proof on video and audio and no lawsuit followed. Although people still clam we killed him in cold blood. Idiots.
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Old 08-19-2012, 01:53 PM #66
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haha why? I am just posting for a bit of an insight into the mentality of a LEO when it comes to using deadly force. Plus There are some good studies that are mentioned and I know how much some people here like actual sources and studies and so forth
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:05 PM #67
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:10 PM #68
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eh... If they want to it's there. If they want to skip it then have them skip it. Not really a huge deal I think nor something that would make me an *******.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:10 PM #69
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i read it. not sure why it was posted though. lacks any context.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:16 PM #70
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basically as to show that the people who for example the op is worrying about are exactly that. PEOPLE. It's not like given a badge they become crazy shoot everyone I can *******s. It is still people with families of their own and friends and loved ones. Say the order was given by the government to exterminate the citizens for whatever reason... The LE community I am more than sure would realize that they are part of society first and an officer second and that order would never fly. No real need to worry about the large amounts of ammo. The great great great majority of it is just going to go through paper and end up in sand.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:46 AM #71
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basically as to show that the people who for example the op is worrying about are exactly that. PEOPLE. It's not like given a badge they become crazy shoot everyone I can *******s. It is still people with families of their own and friends and loved ones.
Haven't you heard the news, government employees aren't people anymore, just leeches feeding off of taxpayers and taking their money at gunpoint.
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:10 AM #72
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Haven't you heard the news, government employees aren't people anymore, just leeches feeding off of taxpayers and taking their money at gunpoint.
Do you remember that college study, where some of the students were made "guards" and the others "prisoners" and how they ended up treating each other? It takes a strong willed man to not let authority get to his head.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:06 AM #73
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Do you remember that college study, where some of the students were made "guards" and the others "prisoners" and how they ended up treating each other? It takes a strong willed man to not let authority get to his head.
Those were Ivy leaguers, too.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:24 PM #74
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Do you remember that college study, where some of the students were made "guards" and the others "prisoners" and how they ended up treating each other? It takes a strong willed man to not let authority get to his head.
Most government workers that get **** on thusly have no authority to speak of. Cops actually get some semblance of respect.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:21 AM #75
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I don't understand the mentality of the people that believe that law enforcement are a bunch of trigger happy *******s just itching for an excuse to shoot everyone they can. Especially in what seems to be the newer generation of officers that the old timers complain so much. A small excerpt from an article I found about the use or non-use of justified deadly force and some responses out of the 15 that replied to that article who happened to be law enforcement.

Restraint in the Use of Deadly Force
In a recent study entitled Restraint in the Use of Deadly Force (created by the same people who compiled the Killed in the Line of Duty (1992), In the Line of Fire (1997), Violent Encounters (2006) and The Deadly Mix (2007) studies take a look at the use and non-use of deadly force by law enforcement officers in the United States). If you aren’t familiar with the aforementioned studies they are available at the FBI website and are a wealth of information for the LE trainer and safety conscious street officer.

The results indicate that 96 percent of the officers involved in the study draw a weapon at least once a year. The study revealed also that 83 percent indicated “that they had been involved in at least one critical incident during their careers.” Of those incidents, 20 percent ended up firing their weapons. 70 percent indicated that they had been in situations where while legally authorized to use deadly force they made the decision not to.

When totaling up the 1,189 situations the officers in the study were involved in where deadly force was authorized it was actually employed only 87 times (7 percent). In the 1,102 (93 percent) other incidents the officers made the decision not to use deadly force. This shows a remarkable level of restrain on the part of the officers in the study, and that translates to same or greater level of restraint by officers on a nation wide basis.


In 41 years of law enforcement, I drawn my weapon many times. In five such encounters, I faced an armed subject. I don't know whether they were more scared than I was, but each chose to drop his weapon and submit to arrest. I had the person's center of mass in my sights, and was taking up the slack on my trigger, but I thank God I ultimately did not have to shoot. One incident involved a junkie who tried to stab me with the can opener on his pocket knife. I was asked by my colleagues why I didn't shoot him, since he had already scratched me with the can opener. My answer was that he was a junkie and I had no trouble holstering my weapon and overpowering him. I thank God regularly that those incidents resolved peacefully and that I did not have to shoot. I am one of the lucky ones.

Yes you are one of the lucky ones brother. But, at least it sounds like you were prepared to fully take up that slack if you had to...Some of these new hires today dont seem to realize how very real that possibility is! They think the firearm is just a counterweight to the radio on the other hip...Current training curriculem is too sterile in my opinion. I wasnt trained to prepare for a "shooting incident" or and "escalation of force"...I was trained to prepare for a gunfight!..A fight for your life, or someone elses life!...and to WIN that fight. And I did twice. I have also never looked at incidents like you described as "I could have shot him", I looked at them as I didnt HAVE to shoot him.

You sir have my respect for doing 41 years in this circus!...I'm out at 25 in 5 years. I've enjoyed it, but it has changed drastically over the last 20 years. Happy retirement to you brother, you definately earned it!


"I didn’t see any weapons or indications that he had one on him. His return to the apartment could mean several things." Officer Wolfe, You didn't shoot because you didn't HAVE to. I have met all types of officers in 38 years including: tough guys, fearful guys, social worker guys, just give me a check guys, lazy guys, squirrel guys, a-hole guys, and some just plain good guys who want to do a good job. Most folks doing this job are good people with different personalities and shooting and killing is not what we want to do. We meet hard core trash who are good for nothing but killing. Will we kill them given the chance? No! Only if we have to! We curse the pukes and the court system and do our job because that is what cops do.

I'm a 30 yr veteran of the circus, I too have faced the challenge, the decision to shoot or not. Had to once, didn't on two occasions.
This shoot don't shoot stuff is all on you, nobody can tell you when to pull that trigger. It is a decision only you alone can make and you live with the outcome right or wrong.
The one thing I will say, It is all about survival, If you truly believe your life or a third party is hanging in the balance on a thread, you got to do the whole survival win thing. You go home, you save a life.
Remember In LE we don't shoot to kill, we shoot to stop the threat, if they die as the result of our force that's on them.
Center mass, multiple shots, do whatever it takes. Prepare to win or expect to fail. Tell yourself over and over again, if the time comes I will Survive. I will Win. I will go home. They will not beat me today, Not tomorrow, Not ever..Mind of a Survivor.V1


A few yrs ago I was dispatched to help officers with a man armed with a sword, double headed throwing ax & several long knives. He was off his meds and threatening everyone around. Being the first SWAT guy on scene I had my HK MP5 9mm and we had a several minute standoff. He kept saying everything was a conspiracy and that he was going to die that day. Eventually he started coming straight at us telling me he was going to die & I was going to kill him. We backed up until there was little more room to back (since we were getting closer to civilians and children in the area). We took a stand and I drew an imaginary line in the dirt in my mind saying if he crosses that line I will shoot. He got up to that line and I moved my finger to the trigger and started slowly pressing as tunnel vision kicked in and my heart began to pound in my ears. To my surprise he stopped and yelled "well I guess if your not going to kill me I will give up" I started yelling commands to drop his weapons and crawl towards me. He complied and when he was a safe distance I pinned him down telling him he was ok and we would get him help. One of my crazy times......

Agree with the comments of VON1. I am retired after 37 years total. I've faced 3 situations where deadly force would have been justified, but only shot during one occasion. The other two - there was just something about them, a feeling I guess would be the best description, that it just wasn't the right time.

The Deputy who trained me used to say "Law Enforcement is not about taking lives. It Is about saving lives." But in the same breath that when you walked out that door with a gun on your hip you made sure you were in the right mindset to pull that trigger if you needed to. He is a Marine, Swat, Narc, and undercover..so he was a little cold about how he said it. But hearing that as a "Rookie" it made me think.

I've only drawn my weapon a handful of times but I took a life to defend my own once. Cocained and drunk this guy stole a vehicle, wrecked it, and brought it back. His relative called it in since it was their vehicle and wanted him out and charges pressed for the vehicle. The relative owned the house and told us to go in to get him. So my partner got the ok from the on call supervisor and the C.A. to take him into custody. Being from a small town and having a long history of fights with this guy my partner called me out from home to back him up. We entered the house being told the guy was sleeping in the basement. We're greeted with a shotgun being racked at the doorway. My partner fell over me and took me down with him trying to get back outside. We got outside and I drew my line in the sand. I said to myself "If he comes out that back door with that shotgun raised I will kill him!" I reverse sliced the pie keeping eyes and cover from the doorway while he came up the stairs with the gun. I yelled mult. times "Police! Drop the weapon!" He kept replying in a smug tone "What?" knowing damn well what we were saying. He walked out the back door with the gun raised and started to swing it towards us. I ended the threat right then and there. I just thank God I positioned the patrol car camera right on that door. The Grand Jury only lasted half a day with the irrefutable proof on video and audio and no lawsuit followed. Although people still clam we killed him in cold blood. Idiots.


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Old 08-22-2012, 03:25 PM #76
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:11 PM #77
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:38 PM #78
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:18 PM #79
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Tomorrow I'm going to buy supplies to reload 2000 rounds of ammo. Just thought I would share that with yall since it is somewhat related but not really.
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:29 AM #80
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Reloading is definitely the way to go...
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Old 09-13-2012, 12:23 PM #81
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Don't see a problem at all. Then again the state (ca) says I can only keep 100,000 rounds of ammo unless I get a permit and build special metal storage boxes...
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