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Old 08-28-2012, 11:13 PM #106
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Heh. Reminds me of when a roommate bought a fan because it said "motorized oscillation" on the front. Didn't know what it was but sounded fancy. I had a good laugh.

I'm pretty sure everyone is affected by it to some degree. But I know people that have been playing since the beginning and it's pretty obvious, more often than not anyway, he speaks of personal preference when he says "better".

I can't say my ego 8 is any "better" than my old etek 2(god I miss it) but I can say my shot consistency improved and maintenance down times decreased. I babied the hell hell out of that etek while that ego 8 was NOT taken care of previous to me buying it.

So . . . anecdote? Yes. Proof? No. Correlation does not equal causation and all that jazz.

But I'm willing to go with what he is saying so long as he's talking about ego's and eteks.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:37 PM #107
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:51 AM #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
We were talking about the 07 (with it's wonderfully "reliable" QEV's) vs the Etek1, but eh, whatever.
The QEV's actually weren't as unreliable as some would like others to believe. Many have never had to even clean or change theirs. My teammate being on of those who has had his 07 since 07 and just switched to a 11 a couple months ago. But thats besides my point. I already set the premise for my arguement when I said "lets discuss an Ego and Etek released in the same year". Thats the 08 vs Etek2.

Quote:
So close. You forgot the numbers! Gun X has Y max rate of fire with board Z, compared to gun A with B max rate of fire with the same board. Stuff like that.
The simple fact that they don't even have the same solenoid and one came with those "so reliable QEV's" as you put it is enough

Quote:
They're made by the same company, so one eclipse reg is better than another eclipse reg? And again, where's the numbers? Where's the velocity ranges and shot counts? This stuff should be well documented and you (as a fan) should be able to recall it by memory.

Besides, I always consider regs to just be a part on a gun, not actually part of the gun it's self. Reg bad, buy better reg, easy. Heck I'd probably do it on general principle. I am a bit of an AKA fanboy, so EVERYTHING gets a Sidewinder.

Yes one Eclipse reg is better than another. One reg used the shims as seen in the 06 Ego. The 08 used springs to offer better consistency. Efficency improved a bit but not by all that much. Now do I have memorized the numbers from markers almost 5 years ago? No of course not and I'm quite sure you dont either. But as you can't prove me wrong what ground do you then have to stand on? besides consistency tests aren't exactly readily done are they? So I have to rely on my actually experience with all markers in question.


Quote:
Buy Zick kit, put in both guns, try again. The price difference leaves a ton of room for tweak and upgrades like that. Plus "smoothness" is such a subjective quality. Some people will freak out over the tiniest differences, others hardly care. Heck, my old Rainmaker is still the smoothest gun I've ever shot (bolt goes forward, hammer goes backwards, tends to balance things out) bar none.
This is a conversation about Stock vs Stock. Not Stock vs upgrades. The fact that you even said "Buy Zick kit, put in both guns, try again" does more to confirm that you acknowledge that the markers are not built to the same standard.

Quote:
Really, this shouldn't be that hard. I could list off a half dozen verifiable differences between my last two "high end" purchases with out breaking a sweat. Two guns with such an initial price difference should be a piece of cake. I'm very disappointed.
Two different regs, two different rammers and 2 different solenoids aren't verifiable differences? Really? But you want me to go out of my way to spit a bunch of numbers? Riiiiight.

Bottomline your arguement is that the Ego8 and Etek2 are the same marker? Perform exactly the same; efficiency, consistency, solenoid cycle speeds, feel? That has to be what you are saying but its what I'm arguing. If its not what you are saying then what?


Quote:
Now we're getting closer, though again no numbers. How much lower profile? How much lighter? It keeps sounding like the difference is a $500 board and mill job.

Though that wouldn't be surprising to me. Consider something like this...
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=75366032
would make a $450 Axe into a $1000 Axe, just in mill time.
2.2 lbs Height: 223mm - Etek 2
1.99 lbs Height 216mm - Ego 8

Huge difference? No. Never said it was but different still.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:41 PM #109
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Copy/pasted from: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3251754

Q. I've got an Etek2 with a Cure bolt, Zick Kit and an Etek STAR frame, so isn't that better than an Ego7?

Q. I've got an Etek2 with a Cure bolt, Zick Kit and Etek STAR frame, so that is basically an Ego8, right?


A. When dealing with questions of this nature, it as well to look back over ALL of the previous questions and answers, as they all deal with certain elements of the answer to this question.

Although we are now considering a newer Etek and comparing it to newer Egos, the fact remains the same, just as it did when comparing the Etek to the '06 Ego - changes and improvements may have been made to the Etek2, but still more changes and improvements have been made to the Egos. Even if you were to ignore the changes made to each marker, there are still things that separate the Egos and Eteks anyway - the '06 Ego had a faster solenoid than the Etek, and the Ego7 and Ego8 also have faster solenoids than the Etek2 (which uses the same solenoid as the Etek, whereas the Ego7 and Ego8 use a different solenoid to the '05 and '06 Egos).

OK, with the Etek2, you now have the Shaft2 barrel introduced with the Ego7, and you have the coil spring HPR and aluminium reg pistons introduced on the SL74 and then made stock with the Ego8. The reg and pistons are actually an improvement over the Ego7 equivalents, if only because the Etek is newer and so got the newer parts. Adding a Cure bolt would bring the Etek in line with the Ego7, as would the STAR frame's LCD board, roller bearing trigger and QEV. The addition of a Zick Kit would be something beyond the Ego7's stock feature set.

OK, so a fully upgraded Etek2 would have some newer parts, as well as some features that the stock Ego7 wouldn't have, but it isn't just features that make an Ego what it is. As was mentioned earlier, the Etek design is based on the '06 Ego, and it shares it's construction method with it, utilising a body with a separate rammer housing and a separate front reg mount. The Etek2 may be two years newer, but under the new milling, and despite the new barrel, new frame, new board, new trigger and new reg, it shares the same construction method as the Etek and '06 Ego. The Ego7 on the other hand was entirely re-designed, with a one-piece body incorporating the rammer housing and the FRM, and due to the lack of a solenoid housing, there is also a separate valve - this makes the marker smaller, narrower, lower and lighter. It's one of the fundamental differences that ensures that the Etek and Etek2 just aren't the same as the newer Egos. You can upgrade the Etek's performance, give it Ego like features, but it'll still not be an Ego - there will always be some differences.

It is these differences that would lead me to choose an Ego7 over an upgraded Etek2, even though the Etek2 would in theory have the slightly better feature set, and be the newer marker - there has just been more development put in to the Ego7, and despite being newer, much of the Etek2 harks back to the 2006 Etek.

In comparison to the Ego8, things are even more clear cut, as the Ego8 has all the new 2008 parts that the Etek2 has, as well as all the Ego parts that you would be adding to the Etek2 as upgrades (in the Etek versions of course), plus it has the 2007/2008 construction, as well as adding features of it's own - the dual QEV block in place of the single QEV. Plus, like all the Egos before it, it has the faster solenoid.

A fully upgraded Etek2 may be broadly comparable to an Ego7 or 8, but they just aren't the same thing.




Copy/pasted from: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3258889

Q. I’ve heard that the Etek3 is basically a downgraded Ego7 with different milling. Is this true?

A. While this has been widely stated, this is not in fact correct. The Etek3 has the integrated front reg mount, as introduced with the Ego7, but still has a separate rammer housing (with integrated valve assembly). It has no QEV, and the new manifold means that one cannot be fitted. It still uses the same solenoid as the Etek, rather than one of the various faster solenoids used in the different Ego models. It doesn’t have the roller bearing trigger of an Ego7, and nor does it have the LCD board.


Q. What Ego model does the Etek3 stack up to?

A. If you have read this whole thread, you’ll have hopefully realised by now that – while obviously related - to a greater or lesser extent, the Etek is a separate line of markers to the Ego. It is a purpose made, budget, Ego-style marker, rather than an actual Ego with some bits and pieces left off.

OK, it’s 2009, nearly 2010, the Etek3 is new, with a raft of updated features, and the ’06 Ego that the original Etek shared some similarity with is now four years old. I don’t think that it is unfair to say that the ’05 and ’06 Ego are looking a little bit long in the tooth compared to newer versions of the Ego. It is perhaps not surprising that the Etek3 now has some features that didn’t exist when the ’05 and ’06 Ego were released.

So, you do have some features that the ’06 Ego did not have. You have the two-piece barrel for one thing, the Cure bolt, the Zick Kit, the SL8R LPR and S3 HPR, and you eliminate two lengths of LP hose. I think you could quite fairly claim that the Etek3 has, certainly in some respects, a better feature set than the ’06 Ego. However….. you are still missing the LCD board, spring adjustment on the trigger (the ’06 Ego has both spring and magnetic return), QEVs and the faster solenoid. As has been the message throughout this thread, even with the Etek3, there are still differences between the Etek platform and the Ego platform.

If we look then at the Ego7, and compare that to the Etek3, the Etek3 has the Zick Kit over the Ego7, the S3 HPR and SL8R LPR, the LPR vent and the 2009 OOPS, plus it eliminates two lengths of LP hose. The Ego7 has it’s roller bearing trigger, LCD board, QEV, faster solenoid and one-piece body.

In comparison to the Ego8, the Etek3 has the LPR vent over the Ego8, the S3 HPR, SL8R LPR and the newer OOPS, and eliminates two lengths of LP hose. The Ego8 has it’s roller bearing trigger, LCD board, QEV block, faster solenoid and the one-piece body.

In comparison to the Ego9, the Etek3 has the vented LPR housing, and, well, that’s about it. The Ego9 has the Cure2 bolt, it’s roller bearing trigger, the LCD board, and a faster, direct feeding and direct venting solenoid - much like having QEVs, but without the actual QEVs.

In comparison to the Ego10, the Etek3 is missing the Zick2 and Cure3 bolt, the roller bearing trigger, the LCD board and the faster solenoid.

So, the Etek3 has outstripped the ’05 and ’06 Egos in some respects, but not in others; it has made large advances towards the Ego7, and improved on it in some respects (Zick rammer, newer regs, LPR vent and 2009 OOPS), and even has some updates over the Ego8 (newer regs, LPR vent and OOPS), but there are still some aspects of even the oldest Egos that are not matched by the Etek3.
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:42 PM #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holson72
Enough information for a very worthy sticky, somewhere.
Dude, if I could give you +1 feedback for that post... I would.
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:49 PM #111
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:55 PM #112
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Well thanks, but to be fair that is all copy paste from two different threads in the Etek section of PBN. The original posts were made by Uziel Gal, and are linked a little earlier in this thread.

I should (and will) edit the above posts to reflect that. I am no Eclipse god...and I don't necessarily believe they are the "best" - but all my Eclipse products have served me very well (even before the Ego days).




I will also say this. I have an Etek 2 with Star frame, and a few Ego8's. They are similar guns...but if you shoot a Star'd Etek2 and an Ego8 back to back; I think that will be all the proof you need. FWIW - I bought my Etek 2 new, and the Star frame used - total money invested is $575. I bought my Ego8's used in 2011. They are box stock (except one has a Virtue OLED, which IMO is really not an upgrade as far as features go). Total money invested in each Ego8 is no more than $475 (one was purchased for $350). So yes, I am comparing new to used...but I am still comparing $$$ to $$$; and IMO any of my used Ego8's are a much better value than my new Etek2. My whole thought process when someone asks how much they should spend on a gun is this: figure out what your budget it, and buy the best stuff you can afford...even if it's used. If my budget back in 2011 was $600 would much rather have a used Ego8, used hopper, used tank, and new mask than to have a new Etek3; or to have bought a $300 Tippmann 98C package and (at least sometimes) wish I had "more". But what do I know...I shoot an autococker 95% of the time I play.
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:41 PM #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
The QEV's actually weren't as unreliable as some would like others to believe. Many have never had to even clean or change theirs. My teammate being on of those who has had his 07 since 07 and just switched to a 11 a couple months ago. But thats besides my point.
That's good to hear. I was being a bit factious. Though one has to wonder if it's something to put in the "better" column since it's a feature they very specifically removed in the most recent versions. A strange logic to go from "action cycles faster, hey that's better" to "action cycles slower, that's even more better".

Quote:
The simple fact that they don't even have the same solenoid and one came with those "so reliable QEV's" as you put it is enough
Ah, the different solenoid is a good point. Though some more specific notes on design and rated cycles speeds would be nice. Yep, definitely different, but still no proof (as of now, waiting anxiously) that one is better than the other. You'd be surprised how often an improved part ends up to be a downgrade, or that cheaper part ends up being the better one.

Quote:
Yes one Eclipse reg is better than another. One reg used the shims as seen in the 06 Ego. The 08 used springs to offer better consistency.
Interesting design choice. Even more interesting that they'd continue to produce regs with the supposed "inferior" design. Did they have this huge stockpile of shim stacks laying around they just had to use up? Though I did notice they must of used them all up by the time the Etek3 came around.

And still, did it Actually offer better consistency, or is that just a claim? I see lots of buzzwords and press release bullet points, but nothing that's a good hard fact. You should remember the old regs that came on Angels back in the day. Plenty of people swore they were great regs, they had to be, they were on $1000 guns. They even said they were good regs on all the press releases. Of course when someone actually tested them it revealed they had the worst recharge rate of any of the dozen or so regs tested (link available upon request). A claim untested is just meaningless words.

Quote:
Efficency improved a bit but not by all that much. Now do I have memorized the numbers from markers almost 5 years ago? No of course not and I'm quite sure you dont either.
On the guns I care enough about to lay claims about I do, but hey, I like numbers. Like most efficient gun I ever helped build, must have been back in 06. Cocker with the full AKA treatment (tornado valve, lightning bolt, etc) that got nearly 500 shots off a 4oz CO2. I wanted to do a full 68/4500 test with the thing, but the shop owner wasn't willing to donate over a case to the test . My B2k3 was barely a hopper and 4 pods off a 68/3000. My 04 Viking is just around a case off a 70/4500, assuming a good fill (which almost never happens).

Quote:
But as you can't prove me wrong what ground do you then have to stand on?
I haven't even attempted to "prove you wrong", since you haven't said much that's even provable. Of course you still haven't figured out my point yet. Don't worry, I'll try to clear that up in a sec.

Quote:
besides consistency tests aren't exactly readily done are they?
Sure they are. 50 balls, a chrono, and a pen and paper. A gun with +-5 fps swings is pretty noticeable on paper compared to a gun with +-10 fps swings.

Quote:
So I have to rely on my actually experience with all markers in question.
Ah, here's the big issue at hand. Personal experience means, well, jack squat. We all have personal preferences, prejudices, opinions, and misconceptions that cloud our judgement. Can't be helped, we're just human.

Remember the old cocker claims. The number of people who said "I've been shooting them for years, and they obviously get more range than other guns" was staggering. And yet when tested the claim proved to be false. As an old family saying goes, the easiest person to lie to is yourself.

Quote:
This is a conversation about Stock vs Stock. Not Stock vs upgrades.
No, this is a conversation about better, worse, or equal. A part that can be upgraded, could be upgraded, and is thus not an inherent aspect of the gun.

Quote:
The fact that you even said "Buy Zick kit, put in both guns, try again" does more to confirm that you acknowledge that the markers are not built to the same standard.
Never claimed they were built to the same standard. The question is did the different standards actually have a tangible effect, and if so does this effect warrant the designation of empirically "better". A master weapon smith could have spent a decade carefully carving one out of a meteorite and had the tolerances check by a laser, and have it out performed by the other which was crapped out by a factory in a third world country. Quality, Performance, and Price don't always coincide they way one would expect. And when they don't, it becomes a purely subjective opinion on which is "better". Often, if two guns have measurably equal performance, the "better" one is often the cheaper one, since it has more value. Think back to the Dye Matrix and the Proto Matrix. Many of the local Matrix fanboys around me would have scoffed at the notion that the more expensive Dye gun was somehow better. It was larger, heavier, and less balanced (numbers available upon request, though it might take me a while to dig those up). Not surprising that Dye had to stop making the better cheaper gun.

Quote:
Two different regs, two different rammers and 2 different solenoids aren't verifiable differences? Really?
Two interchangeable parts, and one potentially significant difference technically.
Quote:
But you want me to go out of my way to spit a bunch of numbers? Riiiiight.
Numbers are truth. Numbers are facts. They can be checked, double checked, verified, and analysed. Anything else is just an opinion. I'm kind of insulted that you didn't lead off with numbers.

Quote:
Bottomline your arguement is that the Ego8 and Etek2 are the same marker?
Nope. Never was the argument.
Quote:
Perform exactly the same; efficiency,
No data given.
Quote:
consistency,
No data given, and admitted to being untested.
Quote:
solenoid cycle speeds,
No data given. (and I'm very curious about this one)
Quote:
feel?
Please, subjective. You're better than that.

Quote:
That has to be what you are saying but its what I'm arguing. If its not what you are saying then what?
You made a claim that one gun was "better" than another, but offered no real proof. That's all I'm asking for. Plenty of opinion, and quite a few marketing claims (seriously, why do people even read those?), but you're starting to, reluctantly, point out a few empirical facts. We just need more. Even some good anecdotal claims would be useful.

Quote:
2.2 lbs Height: 223mm - Etek 2
1.99 lbs Height 216mm - Ego 8

Huge difference? No. Never said it was but different still.
So far the best data given! A bit over a quarter inch height difference could be considered negligible (heck, hopper choice could counteract that), but a 10% weight reduction I'd say is fairly significant.
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:55 PM #114
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I also have been thinking about this same type of question.
My only question in regards to price difference after reading most of the 6 previous pages is; do the mid/entry level speedball markers like the DP 3 and DP 4 shoot at too high of a pressure and therefore break the higher-end tournament paint inside the gun ? Or is this a selling feature and I would be able to shoot the most brittle paint around with one of these guns ? I have heard the higher-end markers all can shoot the real brittle paint because they run lower pressure at the ball, where something like the DP4's and Axe's shoot at a bit higher which causes breakage.
If anyone has ever tested this, it would be nice to know as I too am a rec-ball player for now, and don't have the coin to upgrade atm.
Thanks in advance.
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Old 08-30-2012, 04:37 AM #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius
That's good to hear. I was being a bit factious. Though one has to wonder if it's something to put in the "better" column since it's a feature they very specifically removed in the most recent versions. A strange logic to go from "action cycles faster, hey that's better" to "action cycles slower, that's even more better".

Ah, the different solenoid is a good point. Though some more specific notes on design and rated cycles speeds would be nice. Yep, definitely different, but still no proof (as of now, waiting anxiously) that one is better than the other. You'd be surprised how often an improved part ends up to be a downgrade, or that cheaper part ends up being the better one.

Interesting design choice. Even more interesting that they'd continue to produce regs with the supposed "inferior" design. Did they have this huge stockpile of shim stacks laying around they just had to use up? Though I did notice they must of used them all up by the time the Etek3 came around.

And still, did it Actually offer better consistency, or is that just a claim? I see lots of buzzwords and press release bullet points, but nothing that's a good hard fact. You should remember the old regs that came on Angels back in the day. Plenty of people swore they were great regs, they had to be, they were on $1000 guns. They even said they were good regs on all the press releases. Of course when someone actually tested them it revealed they had the worst recharge rate of any of the dozen or so regs tested (link available upon request). A claim untested is just meaningless words.

On the guns I care enough about to lay claims about I do, but hey, I like numbers. Like most efficient gun I ever helped build, must have been back in 06. Cocker with the full AKA treatment (tornado valve, lightning bolt, etc) that got nearly 500 shots off a 4oz CO2. I wanted to do a full 68/4500 test with the thing, but the shop owner wasn't willing to donate over a case to the test . My B2k3 was barely a hopper and 4 pods off a 68/3000. My 04 Viking is just around a case off a 70/4500, assuming a good fill (which almost never happens).

I haven't even attempted to "prove you wrong", since you haven't said much that's even provable. Of course you still haven't figured out my point yet. Don't worry, I'll try to clear that up in a sec.

Sure they are. 50 balls, a chrono, and a pen and paper. A gun with +-5 fps swings is pretty noticeable on paper compared to a gun with +-10 fps swings.

Ah, here's the big issue at hand. Personal experience means, well, jack squat. We all have personal preferences, prejudices, opinions, and misconceptions that cloud our judgement. Can't be helped, we're just human.

Remember the old cocker claims. The number of people who said "I've been shooting them for years, and they obviously get more range than other guns" was staggering. And yet when tested the claim proved to be false. As an old family saying goes, the easiest person to lie to is yourself.

No, this is a conversation about better, worse, or equal. A part that can be upgraded, could be upgraded, and is thus not an inherent aspect of the gun.

Never claimed they were built to the same standard. The question is did the different standards actually have a tangible effect, and if so does this effect warrant the designation of empirically "better". A master weapon smith could have spent a decade carefully carving one out of a meteorite and had the tolerances check by a laser, and have it out performed by the other which was crapped out by a factory in a third world country. Quality, Performance, and Price don't always coincide they way one would expect. And when they don't, it becomes a purely subjective opinion on which is "better". Often, if two guns have measurably equal performance, the "better" one is often the cheaper one, since it has more value. Think back to the Dye Matrix and the Proto Matrix. Many of the local Matrix fanboys around me would have scoffed at the notion that the more expensive Dye gun was somehow better. It was larger, heavier, and less balanced (numbers available upon request, though it might take me a while to dig those up). Not surprising that Dye had to stop making the better cheaper gun.

Two interchangeable parts, and one potentially significant difference technically.

Numbers are truth. Numbers are facts. They can be checked, double checked, verified, and analysed. Anything else is just an opinion. I'm kind of insulted that you didn't lead off with numbers.

Nope. Never was the argument.

No data given.

No data given, and admitted to being untested.

No data given. (and I'm very curious about this one)

Please, subjective. You're better than that.

You made a claim that one gun was "better" than another, but offered no real proof. That's all I'm asking for. Plenty of opinion, and quite a few marketing claims (seriously, why do people even read those?), but you're starting to, reluctantly, point out a few empirical facts. We just need more. Even some good anecdotal claims would be useful.

So far the best data given! A bit over a quarter inch height difference could be considered negligible (heck, hopper choice could counteract that), but a 10% weight reduction I'd say is fairly significant.
As much as you talk about numbers your examples are some approximations? "X pods off a Y tank filled to about Z". Your numbers prove you inability to provide anything any more concrete then my "claims". I'm really underwhelmed. As much as you spoke about numbers I expected much more. For I could easily spit out a bunch of numbers based off what I could remember but I actually thought not too as those are things I can prove at this present time. But then you go and do it?? A bunch of approximations as if we know exactly how many paintballs you filled to each pod, the tanks exact fill, your paint to barrel match, tank temperature, temperature that day or any other of a bunch of determining factors. Now I'm just laughing.

But anyways, I've already went on to explain the verified internal differences. Not mere marketing claims. Listed the updated parts present in one and not the other. Those things have been backed up by Uziel Gal's quoted posts which went on to offer more indepth info.

You confess to not believing that both markers, STOCK, perform identically. So then what are you arguing? Because this is about stock vs stock. You can't enter my debate and then proceed to tell me what my topic is. So 2 markers, STOCK, created by the same company, operating off the same system, containing certain internal component differences and, as you agreed, do not perform identically. Basic logic and common sense would then states that one marker must then be better than the other. They are either equal or they aren't.

Bottom line we can cease to waste each others time now as I am not going to go out of my way to record data that could be used as actual proof and your example of "data" is an unsubstantiated joke.
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Old 08-31-2012, 01:04 AM #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
As much as you talk about numbers your examples are some approximations?
Of course. That's all I need, and all that I've been expecting. Hence their use as an example. If one gun gets approximately a pod more per fill then it's significantly more efficient. Anything less than that is an insignificant difference and they can be assumed to be practically equal. One could do a full scientific experiment to determine any smaller differences, say one gets 54 more shots per full fill on average, and that would be interesting from a purely academic stand point, but from a practical standpoint the difference would be irrelevant.

Same with consistency, a truly more consistent gun should be obviously more consistent, even with a just a quick estimation. If there is no obvious difference then they can be assumed to be equal.

Just like the height/weight comparison. A quick estimation would have shown more or less identical in height, but a more noticeable difference in weight.

Quote:
"X pods off a Y tank filled to about Z". Your numbers prove you inability to provide anything any more concrete then my "claims".
I have no obligation to provide anything, for I have made no claims. I'm merely examining the data provided from a neutral point of view. I don't "win" by proving that one gun is better that the other. In fact I want you to clearly demonstrate that the Ego8 is legitimately better performing than the Etek2.

Quote:
I'm really underwhelmed. As much as you spoke about numbers I expected much more. For I could easily spit out a bunch of numbers based off what I could remember
You should have, it would have been a great starting point. Heck a simple "gets a pod more per fill and I noticed a 5 or 6 fps less variation in velocity" and I would have been overjoyed. We could have explored it more in detail of course, and really refined the data as needed, but we'd have something way better than "this one is supposed to have a better reg", since that has no meaning at all.
(that's been the point all along by he way)
Quote:
But anyways, I've already went on to explain the verified internal differences. Not mere marketing claims. Listed the updated parts present in one and not the other. Those things have been backed up by Uziel Gal's quoted posts which went on to offer more indepth info.
And those were very useful (you should have spent some time talking about the trigger designs and rammer housing), but saying "gun X has a new and improved reg" is a marketing claim. Showing the new reg has a noticeable effect, or that the old one has a noticeable deficiency, now that proves something.

Quote:
You confess to not believing that both markers, STOCK, perform identically. So then what are you arguing? Because this is about stock vs stock.
Wait, so you're saying a fully upgraded Etek2 is equal or better than an Ego8?!?

You can't be claiming that...are you?

I mean, if your entire claim of "better" hinges on a couple of readily available and easily swappable parts, well that's like saying one type of blowback is better than another since it had an expansion chamber on it from the factory.

I know you don't believe that's true in this case.

Of course if that was true it would be awesome for me. I enjoy modifying, upgrading, and customizing guns, and if I can get the same "highend" performance and quality by starting with a cheaper gun it would save me a ton in the long run. Yep, it would be great if it's true.

Quote:
You can't enter my debate and then proceed to tell me what my topic is.
The debate started when you said...
Quote:
The Ego7 is a better marker than the Etek2.
(post 87)
And I asked you to prove it with some testable data. (post 90)
All I wanted was a bit of anecdotal evidence (which could then be expanded on and refined to more proper scientific data as needed) instead of just a parts list or a marketing claim.

What did you give me? Parts lists and marketing claims.

The entire point was that parts lists and marketing claims mean nothing compared to data. Any data. Even overly simplified data, since data can be improved on.

With marketing claims all you can do is call BS or believe it, and the get pissed off when you think someone has done the opposite.

Quote:
Bottom line we can cease to waste each others time now as I am not going to go out of my way to record data that could be used as actual proof...
So you admit that you haven't provided any actual proof...

Bummer, I was looking forward to having to having some so I could use it when someone asked me which was better and why.
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Old 08-31-2012, 02:19 AM #117
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I've been playing paintball for over 15 yrs, I started out in the woods with cheap brass eagle guns with some friends. I am an original GWC member, I have owned several hundred paintball guns from pumps, low ends, mid ends and high ends. Although I got out of the sport just a little over a year ago but I have recently started buying gear again.

My point is this, With all of the guns I have owned, I have found that the mid ends ( axe, PMR DP's ) all shoot really well, All very smooth shooting guns and high quality.

Sure, They do not have fancy OLED boards, but honestly those are not needed nor do I personally want one. Once you set your board, you will probably never touch it again.

My last 2 guns before I left the sport were a mokal aura 2011 model and a macdev droid with tadao oled. My aura shot just as smooth and was more efficient than my droid. Aura new, $300, Droid new, $1150

Point is, Mid end guns are now just as good as a high end gun, Whats the difference? Packaging, looks, name brand, few extra things tossed in, some luxury items.

You can buy a $400, put a few hundred in upgrades and have the same things as a high end $1200 gun for half the price.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:05 AM #118
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Originally Posted by lp04 View Post
You can buy a $400, put a few hundred in upgrades and have the same things as a high end $1200 gun for half the price.
/thread.

My Axe is proof of this, no numbers needed.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:53 AM #119
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Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
/thread.

My Axe is proof of this, no numbers needed.
ummmmmm, no.

So a few contributions, in the earlier ego models, maximum cycle speed was the main goal. PE specifically churned out guns with noids that were capable of around 40+ bps if I am not mistaken. Highest rate of fire was what people wanted then, they got what they wanted and all parts were designed to push the rate of fire as high as possible. What that resulted in was substantial kick as, even at a low bps rate, the noid would complete a cycle fast enough to prepare the next shot as fast as possible (im sure the guys debating know the basics here but I feel they should be included). With the evolution of the game, people have realized the trade-off and have requested smoother guns. Manufacturers have slowed the noid cycles down to, while still surpassing the 12.5 or 15semi modes, make a smoother shot cycle for the user. Again the people got what they wanted. For an 06-07 player the early egos were better, for the newer mindset player (specifically in regards to ROF) the newer models have better noids. One is not truly better as far as the noids, but as the game and wants of the players have evolved, so have the parts.

For the mid vs high end I always look at Madcev. Lets compare the clone line (Highend) vs the mid level (drone dx). The drone dx is an unbalanced spool vs the balanced of the high end, difference 1 and a huge one. This difference implies much more than its one point but you can figure those out on your own . The drone dx has some parts made of plastic (high quality and great parts but it contributes to the ability to lower the price point) while the clone is all metal. The drone has lower quality grips vs the clone high end. The drone has a matchstick barrel while the clone has the shift kit, another upgrade. The drone has an led board while the clone has an oled booard, this falls more into preference but for me it is huge. They do have similar regs (excluding the macroless gt for a moment) but most mid levels do now as it is easier to just produce one reg, and the same triggers, asa, and feednecks.

The other large aspect for me is the innovation. I know this will probably draw some heat on me but it is undeniable. A high-end gun exists to make advancements. Now some models do not advance things as far as we would like obviously but all of the R&D goes into the high end. A mid level is designed to take all the best parts from years past and put them together in a presentable package. Look at the etek v. ego. The ego has all the newest parts FROM PE (I say this because you can argue well it doesn't have the ______ part from a g6r or this from a company Y, we have to look at the progression of a marker platform within a company) put in stock, the zick 2, sl3 reg, pops, oled board and programming, adjustable noid, shaft barrel KIT and all of the things that pe has spent time and money on advancing their product line. The etek 4 has the asa from the etha (and I HATE the plastic knob on that, ewww) the reg from the egos, I believe they have the Z2 from prior model egos, shaft barrel (no kit) possibly an composite frame, led board, sl3reg off the 11 (not created for the etek 4), and Im sure some more but I am not 100% up to speed on the etek 4. The point is that the mid level guns take pre-created parts and put them together at a reasonable price. The high-ends push the envelope, even if the pushes are small at times. To me, that is the largest difference. Some people are more than happy with the pre-existing parts being put together and sold for a great price, others prefer the small gains in the high-end models.

I leave you with this, the Droid is a cult favorite MacDev gun and many people will swear by it over the clone. However the softness of the shot is the only aspect they look at. The clone is clearly a simpler, more well tuned, efficient machine but because the droid shoots softer it is favored in many cases. So the droid wins in 1 category and earns a cult, despite the clone gt being a much more advanced machine and winning in several or many other categories. This isn't really a high vs mid end point just an illustration on how one thing can often influence opinions a bit off kilter.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:06 AM #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippin35 View Post
ummmmmm, no.

So a few contributions, in the earlier ego models, maximum cycle speed was the main goal. PE specifically churned out guns with noids that were capable of around 40+ bps if I am not mistaken. Highest rate of fire was what people wanted then, they got what they wanted and all parts were designed to push the rate of fire as high as possible. What that resulted in was substantial kick as, even at a low bps rate, the noid would complete a cycle fast enough to prepare the next shot as fast as possible (im sure the guys debating know the basics here but I feel they should be included). With the evolution of the game, people have realized the trade-off and have requested smoother guns. Manufacturers have slowed the noid cycles down to, while still surpassing the 12.5 or 15semi modes, make a smoother shot cycle for the user. Again the people got what they wanted. For an 06-07 player the early egos were better, for the newer mindset player (specifically in regards to ROF) the newer models have better noids. One is not truly better as far as the noids, but as the game and wants of the players have evolved, so have the parts.

For the mid vs high end I always look at Madcev. Lets compare the clone line (Highend) vs the mid level (drone dx). The drone dx is an unbalanced spool vs the balanced of the high end, difference 1 and a huge one. This difference implies much more than its one point but you can figure those out on your own . The drone dx has some parts made of plastic (high quality and great parts but it contributes to the ability to lower the price point) while the clone is all metal. The drone has lower quality grips vs the clone high end. The drone has a matchstick barrel while the clone has the shift kit, another upgrade. The drone has an led board while the clone has an oled booard, this falls more into preference but for me it is huge. They do have similar regs (excluding the macroless gt for a moment) but most mid levels do now as it is easier to just produce one reg, and the same triggers, asa, and feednecks.

The other large aspect for me is the innovation. I know this will probably draw some heat on me but it is undeniable. A high-end gun exists to make advancements. Now some models do not advance things as far as we would like obviously but all of the R&D goes into the high end. A mid level is designed to take all the best parts from years past and put them together in a presentable package. Look at the etek v. ego. The ego has all the newest parts FROM PE (I say this because you can argue well it doesn't have the ______ part from a g6r or this from a company Y, we have to look at the progression of a marker platform within a company) put in stock, the zick 2, sl3 reg, pops, oled board and programming, adjustable noid, shaft barrel KIT and all of the things that pe has spent time and money on advancing their product line. The etek 4 has the asa from the etha (and I HATE the plastic knob on that, ewww) the reg from the egos, I believe they have the Z2 from prior model egos, shaft barrel (no kit) possibly an composite frame, led board, sl3reg off the 11 (not created for the etek 4), and Im sure some more but I am not 100% up to speed on the etek 4. The point is that the mid level guns take pre-created parts and put them together at a reasonable price. The high-ends push the envelope, even if the pushes are small at times. To me, that is the largest difference. Some people are more than happy with the pre-existing parts being put together and sold for a great price, others prefer the small gains in the high-end models.

I leave you with this, the Droid is a cult favorite MacDev gun and many people will swear by it over the clone. However the softness of the shot is the only aspect they look at. The clone is clearly a simpler, more well tuned, efficient machine but because the droid shoots softer it is favored in many cases. So the droid wins in 1 category and earns a cult, despite the clone gt being a much more advanced machine and winning in several or many other categories. This isn't really a high vs mid end point just an illustration on how one thing can often influence opinions a bit off kilter.
Well reasoned and well put
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Old 08-31-2012, 01:37 PM #121
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You can get a cheaper marker, for example an Empire AXE and tear it up. The gun is amazing for the price. Never had a problem with it. DM12s are expensive imo, and are over priced. I don't like how the gun feels in my hands so for me I prefer the axe over the DM12. I currently shoot a GEO2.1 and love it. I eventually will get the geo 3.
Its not in the money you put into a gun, but how well you play. Some guns are better off not being purchased, but some guns are quite the bang for the buck.
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Old 08-31-2012, 02:05 PM #122
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So you think the dm12 is overpriced and plan on buying a Geo3? Im not sure if you are being serious.
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Old 08-31-2012, 02:29 PM #123
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So you think the dm12 is overpriced and plan on buying a Geo3? Im not sure if you are being serious.
I don't like the dm12 and how it fits in my hands, its price etc.
The geo3 is also over priced currently, but it will come down. When that happens I will probably pick it up or get it used for a lot cheaper.

DM12s shoot nice, I just don't like the feel of them in my hands. that was all i was saying
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:43 AM #124
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Originally Posted by asylum11 View Post
player makes the gun, not the gun makes the player.
If you suck with the worst gun on the market, you will suck with the best gun on the market.

I played with s DP G4 for a few years and it was fun and reliable, but recently I purchased my Geo3. Both Spool, both lightweight, both fun. Now I just don't pick up the G4, not sure if i will use it as a training marker or sell it yet, but untill you play with a 400$ marker and then shoot a 1200$ marker you won't know what you are missing, so just dont shoot it, lol.
It all just comes down to budget
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:49 AM #125
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It all just comes down to budget
...in that some people can afford nice stuff, and others will only buy the cheapest stuff because they don't want to spend a lot of money playing paintball.

I say do what you want, it's your money... but I really hate the whole "cult of cheapness" ie: the so-called "budget ballers" who hate on people who can afford nicer stuff because they see it as "unnecessary". If I want to spend money on a Z2 instead of a POS Spyder Fasta; or a Luxe instead of a dinosaur Autococker, that's MY CHOICE.
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:36 PM #126
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Originally Posted by MiniMaster423 View Post
yea what they said but, no a mustang will not ever stomp a lambo regardless of what you put into it.
No, just no. How on earth does a marker stomp another marker. In paintball everything about how GOOD a gun is or what makes a gun GOOD is purely subjective and difficult to quantify.
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