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Old 08-15-2012, 03:32 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
Actually, I'd rather have the cheaper version hands down in those two examples. No question, money not an issue.

Mostly because I DON'T buy guns with proprietary ASA's. Absolutely worthless to me.
Why is that? What about the ASA's bother you so much? First time I've ever heard something like that
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Old 08-15-2012, 03:43 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
Why is that? What about the ASA's bother you so much? First time I've ever heard something like that
Seem obvious to me.

See that built in ASA? You better love it since you CAN'T change it. Want to move your tank around a bit (forward, backward, up, down, angle, whatever), to bad. Want a different type of ASA, say you absolutely love the Eclipse one and it would be the perfect addition to your G6R, well sucks to be you. Oops, you accidentally cross threaded your tank into the ASA. That's an easy fix, you'll just swap on the bottom line from that old Ion... wait, you can't, the whole gun gets to be sent back to the factory for service.

In my early days I enjoyed modifying cheap guns to allow them to use standard bottom line accessories and vertical ASA accessories (my first gun had a back bottle ASA), but the ones you listed weren't cheap. For that much money they better do everything I want them to do and not limit me in any way, right down to whatever cosmetic, ergonomic, or style changes I choose to do.
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Old 08-15-2012, 03:59 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
Seem obvious to me.

See that built in ASA? You better love it since you CAN'T change it. Want to move your tank around a bit (forward, backward, up, down, angle, whatever), to bad. Want a different type of ASA, say you absolutely love the Eclipse one and it would be the perfect addition to your G6R, well sucks to be you. Oops, you accidentally cross threaded your tank into the ASA. That's an easy fix, you'll just swap on the bottom line from that old Ion... wait, you can't, the whole gun gets to be sent back to the factory for service.

In my early days I enjoyed modifying cheap guns to allow them to use standard bottom line accessories and vertical ASA accessories (my first gun had a back bottle ASA), but the ones you listed weren't cheap. For that much money they better do everything I want them to do and not limit me in any way, right down to whatever cosmetic, ergonomic, or style changes I choose to do.
Alright. See moving of the ASA is not something I would ever need to do. I like mine the way they are mounted now. I shoot PE markers right now so I can move it forward or backwards easily though I've never had need too. However moving it down or angled would require me to use incorrect form.

But you are entitled to you feelings. I was just saying I've never heard anyone care quite that much about the ASA before....aside from potential damage of one that is.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:01 PM #25
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So here is how I feel:

What is better: A DP-level gun, or a PE-level gun? The answer isn't cut and dry. Quality wise, sure a PE is better than DP. Better material, machinery used to make it, better parts, better programming, and on and on. To argue that is ridiculous. But just being better quality doesn't mean it is better for the player.

Lets say someone already has all of their own equipment (mask, tank, jersey, pods, pack, etc.), but needs to buy a new gun. Lets say they have $1200 to spend for their whole year of paintball. If they buy the $1200 Ego, then they have no money for field fees and paint, thus it is a HORRIBLE CHOICE. However then the $500 gun leaves $700 for the year for field and paint. Sure, there are many other guns between $500 and $1200 that could fill in better than those 2 guns, but you get the point here.

What about used? You can get a good, used Ego between $500 and $700, but first, many people don't like buying used, so this may be out of the conversation. Second, buying used comes with their own risks. What if the first owner didn't properly take care of it? Are parts still available for it if it does break? How much do the parts cost? For example, an Ego solenoid runs around $150, give or take $30. But for $60, you can get a DP parts kit that includes a solenoid, o-rings, reg parts, detents, and a bunch of other parts.

If it breaks down, how hard is it to repair? PE doesn't have this issue as much as Bob Long guns (how simple they are to fix a possible issue), but many guns are so ridiculously easy to fix it is hardly considered fixing it vs just plain maintenance.

And probably the biggest factor of all; need. Once you've considered everything, what benefits do the high quality guns have over the lower quality are needed? Do you need better milling? Do you need a more programmable board? Do you need an adjustable solenoid? This one of the biggest factors that keeps me from buying a high end gun. I have yet to run into a situation where I needed something my gun didn't have.

This is also an area that that I think hurts the sport. So many people put a NEED factor on high end guns, and we all know this. We also know that many players don't last very long in the sport. We ALSO know many people love it so much that they often want to come back to it. But if you spent $1200 on your gun, then sell it a year or two later for less than $800, that is a $400 loss, a lot of money. But if you spend $500 on a gun, then sell it for $350 a year or two later, that is only $150 loss. When someone reconsiders coming back to the game, a $400 sting is going to hold them back a lot more than a $150 one.

There are probably many other factors to consider, but I will just leave it at those. Again, yes, PE, BL, DYE, etc all have very high quality guns, made out of high quality parts, and made with high quality machinery. Using the car analogy, this is like Toyota vs Aston Martin, with a cop behind you the whole way. The Toyota is going to do the job just as well as the Aston, however the Aston is going to get you more looks, be more comfortable, and is easier to show off than the Toyota.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:07 PM #26
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My opinion on the 400 dollar gun vs the 1200 dollar gun from personal experience:

In 2008 I purchased a smart parts EPA new ( I think 400 bucks) and I loved it. Entry level price with "tournament level performance" then, I starting upgrading it to make it "better". Long story short I dropped about 500 bucks on upgrades like a new reg, barrel, board, grips, bolt, qev, asa, ect all to make it more competitive.

Then, I played with my cousins ego 7, which was outdated at the time because the 08's were out. The difference was night and day. Yes, my eos could spit paint out as fast as the ego but it was no where near as smooth or light. Also, the ego had better ergonomics.

I sold my eos for only 400 bucks, although I had about 800 in it, so I could upgrade to my first high end, a sl74. For 1100 bucks I had a gun that needed, and had, no upgrades. Barrel was perfect. Great reg and ***. Like 1000 times easier to clean. NEVER had a single issue. NEVER chopped a ball.

IMO better in every way imaginable than my mi range gun and, to me, 100% justified in the 1000$ plus price.

Then, I was playing in tournaments and playing a lot more than I am now. But, once I bought a high end I can never go back to a mid range gun.

So, now I play Rex ball but I still buy very expensive guns. But that's just me and I have the means to buy them so I do.

All in all, if and when you feel the need to buy a high end do it if it makes you happy.

Also, pick up one of your friends high ends or play one game with one and you will see how big the difference really is. Not really quantifiable but it's there. Mostly, especially with a PE gun, it's never having an issue as long as the gun is maintained properly.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:10 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
Alright. See moving of the ASA is not something I would ever need to do.
Wait long enough. Say down the line you need to replace your HPA tank, but suddenly all the available ones are really, really short (it's a hypothetical, just run with it), now your gun feels really really short. Or all the tanks get really skinny but incredibly long for some reason. Who knows.

Quote:
I like mine the way they are mounted now.
Lucky you, I've NEVER once liked the out of the box tank location on a gun.

Quote:
I shoot PE markers right now so I can move it forward or backwards easily though I've never had need too. However moving it down or angled would require me to use incorrect form.
The "correct" form changes to much. Always has. Given a long enough time period whatever is popular today will get you called a noob at some point.

Quote:
But you are entitled to you feelings. I was just saying I've never heard anyone care quite that much about the ASA before....aside from potential damage of one that is.
Think of it this way, would you buy a gun with a permanently attached barrel? Or one that only lets you use one very specific hopper? Or is only compatible with one air system? Options are good, there's no such thing as having too many. And having less options is never better than having more.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:45 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espin679 View Post
kinda like owning a lambo, you get that wow factor and power, (im leaving handling out. I feel the agility of a gun is the actual player, like a suspension is to a car). but for 30k less i can make a modified mustang stomp out a lambo.
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You think so if you believe that statement is true stick to paintball because u dont kno much about cars.
Lamborghini will get more chicks than any Mustang, regardless of what you have done to it. Who cares about top end when you can have the bottom half.

Now back on track, after playing the amount of time that I have, I've realized that I can do just as much on the field shooting a $200 gun as I can shooting a $1,200 gun. Sure the top of the line, top dollar markers are going to have more bells and whistles (they ARE higher quality). The bottom line is if you're not a good player you could spend $20,000 on a marker and it won't make a difference.

I would rather shoot an old Cocker and play 3x a month than shoot a top of the line and play 1x a month. If money isn't an issue then more power to you.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:49 PM #29
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@Racso I understand what you are saying which is why I say one of the biggest factors is budget. Spend all your money on gear and have no access to more money to play is definitely a losing situation

Now as for whats needed, back when I first started playing the difference between the low end and high end was a much bigger gap. So for a lightweight marker with good efficiency, consistency and a quality stock barrel I almost had to go to the high ends. These days that isn't necessary. The mid range markers should probably be called "lower high end".

As for loss, that is a harder topic. Because you still have to examine other factors. Using myself for example. If I decided to leave paintball and sold my 1K marker and then came back a few years later. Because spending the 1K wasn't a strain for me the first time I don't feel that be something that would hold me back. But on the other hand I'm not one for selling my markers so my views are kinda skewed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
Wait long enough. Say down the line you need to replace your HPA tank, but suddenly all the available ones are really, really short (it's a hypothetical, just run with it), now your gun feels really really short. Or all the tanks get really skinny but incredibly long for some reason. Who knows.

The "correct" form changes to much. Always has. Given a long enough time period whatever is popular today will get you called a noob at some point.

Think of it this way, would you buy a gun with a permanently attached barrel? Or one that only lets you use one very specific hopper? Or is only compatible with one air system? Options are good, there's no such thing as having too many. And having less options is never better than having more.
If tanks drastically changed that much then I would have to adjust but thats not something I foresee happening anytime in the near future.

Disagree here. Proper form doesn't change. Markers do. However again I don't see manufacturers changing their marker designs that much anytime in the near future.

No to all those things but I count those things as being much larger than an ASA. I began playing in 2001. I had the drop forwards. had the angled ASAs. Since I switched to the set-ups I use now I have never wanted it to be any other way. So again baring any damage to the ASA, something I've yet to deal with, I like them as is. Beside on PE markers getting a replacement POPs is easy.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:26 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
Now as for whats needed, back when I first started playing the difference between the low end and high end was a much bigger gap. So for a lightweight marker with good efficiency, consistency and a quality stock barrel I almost had to go to the high ends. These days that isn't necessary. The mid range markers should probably be called "lower high end".
I agree with you there. In my opinion most of the guns people call "mid range" shouldn't be called that at all. They're high end, just not as expensive as other high ends. The common 3 tier system is way to vague, it's more like 6. Intro, low, mid, high, ultra high, luxury. (though that could use some work)

Quote:
Disagree here. Proper form doesn't change. Markers do.
Oh I totally disagree there. The standard form of a common paintball gun has been around since the early 90's. A tube or two on top of a grip, vertical pipe in front of the grip, bottom line or some other mounting device on the bottom of the grip. Not a whole lot of difference in the silhouettes of a mini-mag and a Luxe. Yet playing forms have shifted a ton in those years. Mostly the body angle of the player. In 98 I had a team captain yell at me for leaning to far forward, my butt and pack were sticking too far back so I was going to get angled too easy. The proper form then was a more vertical body, even leaning slightly back. These days players are practically bent in two with how far forward they're leaning.

Quote:
No to all those things but I count those things as being much larger than an ASA. I began playing in 2001. I had the drop forwards. had the angled ASAs. Since I switched to the set-ups I use now I have never wanted it to be any other way.
Good for you, you found a setup you like and should stick with it (even if the popular opinion changes... and it will). I started in 98, before drop forwards in fact. Spent the first couple years complaining that the only tanks that were comfortable to use didn't have enough shots, and those that did have enough shots made the gun too long. I too found a setup I liked and never wanted to be another way, but the popular opinion changed.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:32 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sh4d0vv

I sold my eos for only 400 bucks, although I had about 800 in it, so I could upgrade to my first high end, a sl74. For 1100 bucks I had a gun that needed, and had, no upgrades. Barrel was perfect. Great reg and ***. Like 1000 times easier to clean. NEVER had a single issue. NEVER chopped a ball.
Ego's do have great *** indeed.

With the high-end guns, its about value to the player. A large amount of paintball guns across many different price ranges can be set to shoot PSP/NPPL/Millenium/NXL/Semi out of the box(original box or ups box, if you went new or used), and will perform decently. There are note worthy things others have pointed out that do set a $1200 gun apart from a $400 gun.

The value to the player, how much they percieve they are getting from that extra $800 is really what defines which is the better choice to that person. There isn't a really definitive answer to "400 dollar or 1200 dollar gun for rec ball" as it varies greatly from individual to individual. Some may find great value in a new 1200 dollar high-end for some recreation fun. Others will be content with a $400 gun and will end up looking at the high end as decent equipment, that they over spent on. The "which marker" debate always comes down to what you as a player desire from a gun, how it feels to you, and your price range.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:44 PM #32
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Ego's do have great *** indeed.

With the high-end guns, its about value to the player. A large amount of paintball guns across many different price ranges can be set to shoot PSP/NPPL/Millenium/NXL/Semi out of the box(original box or ups box, if you went new or used), and will perform decently. There are note worthy things others have pointed out that do set a $1200 gun apart from a $400 gun.

The value to the player, how much they percieve they are getting from that extra $800 is really what defines which is the better choice to that person. There isn't a really definitive answer to "400 dollar or 1200 dollar gun for rec ball" as it varies greatly from individual to individual. Some may find great value in a new 1200 dollar high-end for some recreation fun. Others will be content with a $400 gun and will end up looking at the high end as decent equipment, that they over spent on. The "which marker" debate always comes down to what you as a player desire from a gun, how it feels to you, and your price range.

This is a good post. I think quite a bit depends on the owner's perception of the gun. It may make him more confident, but it also might make him incredibly stupid ("Let's see if this bullet proof armor can stop a knife," kinda thing).

I absolutely adored my Ion, specifically because it WASN'T $1200, and with a few, albeit major, upgrades, performed admirably against much more expensive guns. I also took the time to get to know my marker, tailor it to my needs, and so if anything happened, I knew exactly how to fix it, saving me even more money.

If you have that much cash on hand, I'd buy a nice used marker, and then invest the rest. Just my $0.02
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:54 PM #33
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Sorry about that. I did not mean a** I meant asa. iPhone autocorrect.
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Old 08-15-2012, 06:22 PM #34
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For someone wanting an upgrade, but not wanting to spend $1500 on a marker, the answer is simple. Buy the best USED marker you can afford. If its a G3, get it. A G3 is a fine marker. You also need to look at what kind of paintball you will be playing. Mostly woodsball? Heck best woodsball guns are Tippmanns. I have a Pro Carbine, love it. It was reliable 15 years ago, it will be reliable 15 years from now. Same goes for a 98 Custom. They are cheap to buy, easy to find and cheap to repair. Playing mostly rec speedball? Well pretty much anything electric, even some mechanicals. An Ion trigger can be walked. For the most part, though, E Spyder frames can't be. A G3 can be walked. Jumping into tourney play? That is where you spend some cash. Truthfully an SLG has all the specs to play tourney ball. Realistically an SLG is almost as reliable as a hemophiliac's clotting factor. I had a UL, biggest pile of trash I've ever owned. This is where those $1500 guns come into play. My old A4 Fly was very expensive, but it was also rock reliable no matter what. If an SLG works properly for the entire tournament, it will have no disadvantage when compared to an Ego. They can both easily reach the MROF and have all the features you would need in the board. But a sear tripping, budget built SLG probably won't even work properly for one game. At least mine never did.

More expensive guns will have more reliable parts, and will typically be built better and lighter. The thing about appearance is all opinion. If you care what it looks like, that's on you. I think an Ego is ugly. I think an A1 looks nice.
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Old 08-15-2012, 06:28 PM #35
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Sorry about that. I did not mean a** I meant asa. iPhone autocorrect.
Your phone must get a lot of ASA...
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:24 PM #36
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Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
Now as for whats needed, back when I first started playing the difference between the low end and high end was a much bigger gap. So for a lightweight marker with good efficiency, consistency and a quality stock barrel I almost had to go to the high ends. These days that isn't necessary. The mid range markers should probably be called "lower high end".
Very true. Pre-ion, your gun choices were Spyder range (price and quality) and or Autococker/Mag or (transitioning into) Shocker/Angel/Timmy (again, price and quality). Now, you have a metric crap load of mid range guns that are tournament quality out of the box (I would say many are better than early 2000's high end guns). Etek, FX, Drone, Reflex Rail, etc., all tournament level guns.

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As for loss, that is a harder topic. Because you still have to examine other factors. Using myself for example. If I decided to leave paintball and sold my 1K marker and then came back a few years later. Because spending the 1K wasn't a strain for me the first time I don't feel that be something that would hold me back. But on the other hand I'm not one for selling my markers so my views are kinda skewed.
None of my points apply to everyone, just some things to consider. Someone with a larger budget has fewer concerns than someone with a smaller budget, or someone with more concerns about cash.

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Your phone must get a lot of ASA...
i see what you did there...
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:44 PM #37
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I have over 220k shots thru my 09 ego that I paid $850 a few months after 09s came out, it has been with every penny.

I just picked up a used axe for $200 to use as my recball marker and it is also worth every penny.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:46 PM #38
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yea what they said but, no a mustang will not ever stomp a lambo regardless of what you put into it.
You sir. Are wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lQX3cOAbes
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:25 PM #39
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I don't see a Lamborghini anywhere in that video.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:35 PM #40
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Originally Posted by JohnSherman View Post
I don't see a Lamborghini anywhere in that video.
I think the Factory Five GTM is a better metric. Base kit costs $20k, you add in the engine and trans-axle, and you have a car that performs just as good, if not better than a Ferrari or Lambo. Also, for a little extra money, you can have one that looks just as nice, and still spend less than $100k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYksZ_WoUSw
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:37 PM #41
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Originally Posted by JohnSherman View Post
I don't see a Lamborghini anywhere in that video.
Must have been a couple blocks back :p. I usually hate mustangs but that ones pretty b-a.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:00 AM #42
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Originally Posted by GhostJedai View Post
I think the Factory Five GTM is a better metric. Base kit costs $20k, you add in the engine and trans-axle, and you have a car that performs just as good, if not better than a Ferrari or Lambo. Also, for a little extra money, you can have one that looks just as nice, and still spend less than $100k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYksZ_WoUSw
Nice chassis to build on. That thing would really haul *** with a NRE twin turbo or a Steve Morris pro charged v8. 1300 HP on pump gas 2000+ on 110 octane. Smells like were getting a little off topic here.
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