Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-15-2013, 04:23 AM #1
vijil
Giant Paintball Robot
 
vijil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Zealand
Kee CEO still believes in .50 cal

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson - Kee CEO
Using the T-Ball to MLB analogy, I believe paintball should have:

SplatMaster – spring loaded (no air/gas ever) shooting up to 170 or so fps

.50 cal aired product, shooting between 200-250fps

.68 cal – as we know it today

To me this provides the natural progression for the player.
Source

And there you have it folks, the CEO of probably the most powerful company in paintball saying he thinks .50 has a future in the sport. Nobody is saying that .50 will replace anything, but as a rental system and a way to expand paintball it works perfectly.

It makes sense to me. We need some way to feed people into the big games (both woods and speed), a progression that emphasizes fun, keeps things cheap, keeps newbies separate from the hateballers until they're ready and generally just helps people to not quit out of frustration.

Speaking as a field guy I just hope he puts his money where his mouth is and we see Kee bring out a range of rental solutions for 50 cal - a smaller and lighter .50 BT slice would be a good start along with plentiful paint and some kind of long term guarantee that they'll keep it up. We'd love to move to 50, but it's just not a viable option right now. Maybe that's part of why they bought Kingman...

Last edited by vijil : 10-15-2013 at 05:00 AM.
vijil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 09:21 AM #2
Pump Scout
A dream within a dream
 
Pump Scout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Central Wisconsin
Annual Supporting Member
Pump Scout is a Mega Moderator
Pump Scout is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Pump Scout is BST Legit
Pump Scout is playing at Living Legends VII
Pump Scout supports Team VICIOUS
Pump Scout is one of the top 250 posters on PbNation
I do too. As proof, I offer up my own kids, the younger two of which were very hesitant to try anything paintball related until SplatMasters came out. Now, each of them has tried some form of paintball.

I've used my own air-powered .50 caliber marker at a company function, and it worked great. Can't say it hurt much less than .68 does, after being hit several hundred times, but it ran flawlessly using the JT SplatMaster paint in a blowback Spyder Stormer. I could see dialing down the velocity (which I wasn't able to do, lowest I could get it was 290!) and running it with kids any day.

There's a better solution to that mid-range than an aired product, and it even sits in the KEE archives, but I don't know if they'll take that direction with anything. Sure would be cool if they did.
Pump Scout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 09:44 AM #3
Horizon
 
 
Horizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Horizon is a member of the Paintball Operators' Association
We set our rental 50 cal markers right around 250 fps and I can tell you that it hurts way less than a 68 cal at 280 fps. It's neat to watch first time 10-12 years olds playing and not afraid to get involved in the action right away. For the previous 12 years of business, they had no choice but to join in on our 68 cal games and although thousands of them had fun during those years, there were thousands that didn't like it too much and probably thousands more that didn't even bother trying it because of the stories they heard and welts they saw on their friends. With the lower speed 50 cal option, I haven't seen one kid yet opt to sit out instead of play, which is pretty common with traditional 68 cal. And for every kid that opts to sit out, you know there are probably 5 more that don't sit out, but also don't enjoy it enough to want to make it a regular thing.
Horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 11:30 AM #4
Umami
Paragon
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
I really like the 50 cal move for a lot of the reasons already stated in this thread. This explains why Kee took the opportunity to acquire Kingman.

That said, I think the next move needs to come from the paint manufacturers. It's not easy enough to find 50 cal for the markers that already exist. Which kind of highlights the other issue - it's probably difficult for smaller fields and stores to stock yet another option of paint. Even if it's cheaper to ship.
__________________
I've got eight slugs in me. One's lead, and the rest are bourbon. The drink packs a wallop and I pack a revolver.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 11:43 AM #5
Horizon
 
 
Horizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Horizon is a member of the Paintball Operators' Association
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
I really like the 50 cal move for a lot of the reasons already stated in this thread. This explains why Kee took the opportunity to acquire Kingman.
If that's why they acquired Kingmann, it was a bad business decision. It would have been much better to develop their own, more reliable, mechanical 50 cal. Producing 50 cal paint can be done with minor modifications to existing tools KEE already has access to. They also already have a good distribution system. I'm not really sure why they bought Kingmann, but I have a feeling they got the company at a bargain basement price and just wanted to buy up the competition and the brand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
That said, I think the next move needs to come from the paint manufacturers. It's not easy enough to find 50 cal for the markers that already exist. Which kind of highlights the other issue - it's probably difficult for smaller fields and stores to stock yet another option of paint. Even if it's cheaper to ship.
Paint manufacturers will produce whatever there is a demand for. Most of the current 50 cal demand stems from fields offering 50 cal as a rental option. But with no decent small, light, reliable rental marker available, fields are hesitant, so the demand isn't growing very quickly. It's a bit of a conundrum. I have a feeling it will sort itself out in the next little while though.
Horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 01:31 PM #6
Umami
Paragon
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
What do you offer for rentals?
__________________
I've got eight slugs in me. One's lead, and the rest are bourbon. The drink packs a wallop and I pack a revolver.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 01:42 PM #7
Horizon
 
 
Horizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Horizon is a member of the Paintball Operators' Association
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
What do you offer for rentals?
Spyder Opus for now.
Horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 06:40 PM #8
aresfiend
20% more *****in
 
aresfiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rice Lake, WI
aresfiend plays in the APPA D4 division
aresfiend has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
aresfiend has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
aresfiend has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
aresfiend supports Empire
Quote:
Originally Posted by vijil View Post
Nobody is saying that .50 will replace anything, but as a rental system and a way to expand paintball it works perfectly.
Final-****ing-ly someone else understands it!
__________________
You may call it fat, I call it bounce padding.
aresfiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 02:19 AM #9
AndrewTheWookie
Disciple of the dark side
 
AndrewTheWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Central Coast, CA
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends V
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends VI
AndrewTheWookie is playing at Living Legends VII
We've had so many new people show up to our field because we offer .50 as an option. I'm glad that people in charge of the companies (or company, in this case) realize that.
__________________
"When in doubt, just use C4"
AndrewTheWookie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 11:21 AM #10
CrazyDriver84
I Snipe with PSP Mode
 
CrazyDriver84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Plymouth, MI
Annual Supporting Member
CrazyDriver84 supports Sherwood Forest
CrazyDriver84 supports Sherwood Forest
CrazyDriver84 has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pump Scout View Post
There's a better solution to that mid-range than an aired product, and it even sits in the KEE archives, but I don't know if they'll take that direction with anything. Sure would be cool if they did.
To which are you referring? You have me intrigued.
CrazyDriver84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 10:12 PM #11
vijil
Giant Paintball Robot
 
vijil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Zealand
I'm guessing something to do with pump :p

Speaking of which, there's a .50 cal airowgun available now too. That's kinda a side topic though, not sure what made me bring it up.
vijil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 10:34 PM #12
Bob McGuire (APL)
Bob McGuire (PTI)
 
Bob McGuire (APL)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tennessee
Bob McGuire (APL) is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
50 caliber options

John Robinson has voiced his opinion on logical .50 caliber classes of business, but I disagree with his opinion, and the new proposed "ASTM Low Impact Paintball standard" reflects better low and medium impact paintball performance definitions for commercial fields. I pushed for several years (well before the JT SplatMaster launch) for KEE to produce a field grade .50 caliber rental marker for 150-175 FPS. They ultimately disagreed with me then and apparently still disagree now.

250 FPS .50 caliber paintballs (especially if they do not break) hurt far more than most folks realize. Much younger game participants can tolerate 175 FPS impacts from .50 caliber paintballs, and the new proposed ASTM standard establishes such a max velocity for Low Impact paintball. Medium Impact paintball is defined as 150-175 FPS .68 caliber paintball. This opens up a new class of .68 caliber paintball that does not hurt as much, and allows some field operators to convert their rental fleet for dual purpose use (assuming their markers are of the design types that do not cause excessive force when the velocity is lowered).

Stacked bolt blowback markers as well as port blockage velocity adjustment types are all ill-suited for low velocity rental fleets. Pressure regulated spool type markers in .50 or .68 caliber are the ticket, and we have experimented with most of the designs. The Stormer and Opus .50 caliber designs have issues but can be made to work at 150 FPS without changing or modifying the hammer spring. Don't touch the spring, as these markers commonly sludge up and will need the extra re-cocking force when they suffer breaks. And much of the .50 caliber paint is too fragile for 175 FPS. The best way to use the Opus-A is to use a SS bolt and drill a hole of the right size in the right place such that the bolt can be flipped (like the old cocker cheater bolt flips in tournaments). This will give you about a 100 FPS drop in velocity and the marker will usually make it thru a few hours of play without gumming up.

I have been hoping to see a new spool design .50 cal, but for now the GOG enMy .68 caliber non-electronic markers seem like a great bet for medium impact games and will hurt FAR LESS than 250 FPS .50 caliber balls. And there is your gateway into regular rec-ball.

Last edited by Bob McGuire (APL) : 10-16-2013 at 10:42 PM. Reason: typo
Bob McGuire (APL) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 09:36 AM #13
Horizon
 
 
Horizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Horizon is a member of the Paintball Operators' Association
Bob, there is no doubt that 50 caliber at 150-175 fps hurts considerably less than at 50 cal at 250 fps. Whether or not 68 cal at 150-175 fps hurts less than 50 cal at 250 fps is up for debate (but I hope it doesn’t get debated ad nauseum). The energy at 4.55 Joules for 68 cal even at 150 fps is still more than 3.77 Joules for 50 cal at 250 fps. But I realize there is more than just energy measurement when it comes to how humans feel pain. There is a correlation though.

In the end it comes down to what we are trying to accomplish. Personally I don’t want to create a version of paintball games with no discomfort at all. I also don’t want to create a game where participants can “dodge” oncoming paintballs and where a marker has to be held at a 45 degree angle in hopes of reaching a player 75 feet away, at least not for the 10 to 14 year old market (or most adults with a fear of conventional paintball). I want participants to be able to hold a marker close to level and have the paintball reach its target 50-75 feet away without severe drop. Splatmasters of course do not do this and although I believe there is a place for Splatmasters and “paintball” at such slow speeds for younger players, it’s much too big of a step from Splatmaster paintball to conventional paintball. It’s also not nearly as exciting for the 10 to 14 y.o. market as something that is closer to conventional paintball. In my opinion, the game of paintball needs a little bit of an adrenaline rush, otherwise we could just be playing lasertag. The adrenaline rush is what sets paintball apart from everything else. The adrenaline rush comes from the fact that if hit, you may feel a little discomfort.

For me, there is no doubt that I can market 50 cal at 250 fps much easier than 68 cal at 150-175 fps. The faster game and lighter equipment is too great a positive to ignore, just for the convenience of only having to stock one kind of paintball.
Horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 10:48 AM #14
Bob McGuire (APL)
Bob McGuire (PTI)
 
Bob McGuire (APL)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tennessee
Bob McGuire (APL) is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Reiner,

I agree with much of what you say and do. I have enjoyed observing your marketing, networking, and protocol. I have followed your website and Facebook page for some time, and I respect you. TNT has a great brand, and you have a very successful business.

I have two objectives in developing and supporting low impact paintball:
1) Introduce starving small field operators to a different product which will appeal to apprehensive mothers of kids who have been asking for a paintball party.
2) Introduce youngsters who are stuck behind a computer screen, to a paintball gateway.

There are new definitions of "paintball" depending on what sort of spin might be useful. Games which use .50 caliber paintballs shot at 150 FPS max velocity are sometimes classed as activities other than paintball, and my definitions in the new proposed ASTM standard uses that velocity as a break point. Regular .68 caliber paintball has an established max velocity of 300 FPS. The real trick is to sort out a bridge or gateway between the ultra low impact "near toys" and the conventional paintball. I have tried many intermediate alternatives and cannot distinguish a single format that serves all purposes for the market definitions we have identified. Our field testing and market surveys have identified two business models that seem to be useful, and I have molded the new proposed ASTM standard around them. Bridging from Nerf-ball ballistics to tournament level paintball can be difficult, and I believe it requires more than one step.

There are factors beyond paintball impact (the "welt" factor) that influence our perspectives. We both realize how complicated the details can be, and neither of us wants to open a dialogue which would encourage flaming by others. You are good for paintball and I wish you well.
Bob McGuire (APL) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 01:27 PM #15
GatSplat
 
 
GatSplat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dallas Area
I've got to say Bob, I don't think your ideas are going to work from a field owners perspective. I'm 100% with Reiner here... of course that might be because I think I helped talk him in to what he is doing, as it's what I'm doing as well.. and have been for several years.

68's don't really want to break at 150... well, they will at 150, but that means you have to shoot someone from a foot away. Across our field, we ran multiple chrono's and shot seeing 260 shot dropping to about 140 at the other end of our field. Starting at 150, I'm pretty sure it would be useless by the time it got across the field.. would never break. And if you did have a paintball that would break at 80... my ceilings would not be high enough to lob them in. And then that paintball would not work effectively in our other guns shooting 260, we would be spray painting out of those... so now I'm carrying 2 different 68 paints...

You must see that this industry is slow to adapt to anything. We have multiple store owners out here like myself and Reiner who say 50 cal is great for bringing in younger players. Now to have 50 and slow 68 and fast 68 and slow 50 and fast 50.... what?!?! Really?!

No need.

As far as an ASTM standard.. what does it matter and who cares? I can see a standard for the impact resistance of a goggle lens, or what a net can take without poking holes through. These are important things for safety. But any mask that can take a 68 at 285 will take it at 150... so even if there was going to be this "inbetween" paintball, (and we tried slower 68.... 50 is far superior as far as not hurting and being lighter for kids), but even if there was a 150 paintball... why a standard? what would it matter??
__________________
Larry GatSplat.com


Paintball Field Reservation & Digital Waiver System.
Absolutely Free from now through June 2014! No set up fees! No monthly fees.
GatSplat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 02:06 PM #16
Bob McGuire (APL)
Bob McGuire (PTI)
 
Bob McGuire (APL)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tennessee
Bob McGuire (APL) is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Hi Larry,

If you do not like my business model so be it. I am in no position to compare our practices because I do not know the details of your business model.

I do not advocate fields investing in three or more marker rental fleets. I do realize the need for low impact paintballs to be more fragile and expensive than standard field paint, so there will always be the need for more than one type of paint (be it different caliber or different performance characteristics).

I am happy with a new low volume high margin class of business that brings private groups to an unique party opportunity that they enjoy. I enjoy working with clients who are focused on the safe entertainment value of our product. We do not allow people to bring their own equipment and we compare ourselves more to putt-putt golf than to high impact competitive rec-ball. I realize this would not be your cup of tea.

Judging from your comments, I do not think you fully understand the purpose or types of ASTM standards. Be well.
Bob McGuire (APL) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 02:44 PM #17
GatSplat
 
 
GatSplat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dallas Area
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob McGuire (APL) View Post
I realize this would not be your cup of tea.

Judging from your comments, I do not think you fully understand the purpose or types of ASTM standards. Be well.
Actually, I was one of the first on here to advocate low impact 50 cal.

And exactly, I do not fully understand the purpose of ASTM standards for a lower impact paintball, like we are doing, or that you might be trying to do... That's why I asked the question, what is it for, what does it matter? I was trying to find that out...
__________________
Larry GatSplat.com


Paintball Field Reservation & Digital Waiver System.
Absolutely Free from now through June 2014! No set up fees! No monthly fees.
GatSplat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 03:10 PM #18
Bob McGuire (APL)
Bob McGuire (PTI)
 
Bob McGuire (APL)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tennessee
Bob McGuire (APL) is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Hi Larry,

Thanks for the soft reply. I understand now.

The new Low Impact Paintball is a field operating standard (ASTM Procedure Standard) and includes far more than physical characteristics of the paintballs themselves. The ASTM standard for paintballs is a design standard. ASTM standards are useful to manufacturers and are critical in litigation. ASTM procedures are deferred to by insurance companies when they establish underwriting criteria for commercial general liability programs.

The existing standard for sport paintballs is being revised to include .50 caliber balls. This is a quick tweak and is not what I was talking about.

I am well aware of your presence in the DFW area and I recognize how successful you have been with 50 caliber. You big guys don't need help. I am focused on underfunded small fields. I rarely post but I was told about this thread. If anybody wants more info on my converta-bolt designs that allow quick and easy velocity changes for the Opus or Stormer markers, I would be please to furnish them privately. You are correct... the lower velocity (150-175) .50 caliber games are designed for small fields, but will provide far better ballistics than JTSplatMaster and will be appreciated by 8-12 year olds, and by corporate groups. 50 cal Splatmaster paint is usually fairly good quality for up to 175 fps but you may want to hold back some tougher stuff if the Splatmaster paint starts to splash. We have been tracking paint performance for many years and see how difficult is to get consistent paint. Even 68 caliber medium impact paint is very expensive (top shelf tournament paint).

Good to communicate with you again.
Bob McGuire (APL) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2013, 09:34 PM #19
vijil
Giant Paintball Robot
 
vijil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Zealand
Interestingly the high margin model Bob mentions is the standard model here in NZ. the average paint price here is $10 per 100 FPO, the average session time is 2 hour, and it's organised groups only - no walkons or open play. Own guns are generally disallowed unless they use a rental grav hopper (no primos, too fast).

Players with their own gear generally organise themselves and fields here will sometimes run club or open days. These are generally monthly at most, and relatively rare due to the low commercial viability given that club players typically want paint at $80 a case or less.

We can do this because there just isn't the population to support an american style half/full day model with own gear and cheap paint. Do that and you'll be bankrupt in no time.

Why do I mention? Because for fields here a full switch to .50 would make sense. Meaning, they would no longer stock .68 markers or paint at all besides for team and club use. It makes margins higher, lowers the pain level, gives a competitive advantage, makes markers lighter, attracts a wider customer base etc. Don't need to worry about keeping agglets or walkons happy since they simply don't exist here.

What's stopping it is viability. There is no good rental .50 marker system. There is not the same variety and stability of paint supply.
vijil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2013, 10:04 PM #20
Horizon
 
 
Horizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Horizon is a member of the Paintball Operators' Association
Quote:
Originally Posted by vijil View Post
What's stopping it is viability. There is no good rental .50 marker system. There is not the same variety and stability of paint supply.
I could see that being a problem for you for a while yet. It's even a bit of a problem for us here in Canada and they make much of the darn paint here. Any chance there might be a few field owners that might switch over to 50 cal, giving the importer(s) a reason to bring in more 50 cal paint?
Horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 09:17 AM #21
Yankee Paintball
www.YankeePaintball.com
 
Yankee Paintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oxford, CT
We're testing out .50 for the 9-12 crowd that is tired of Laser tag( your fault Horizon). Quality paint and guns are the biggest issues for us. I can make the guns work but cheap paint will always be cheap paint.
__________________
Yankee Paintball Western Connecticut's woodsball field! ** YP Events** Open weekends 10-4!
Paintball is fun!
What others think of me YP's Old feedback~~New Feedback +2
Eric
Owner-Manager Yankee Paintball
Authorized Dealer for CCM,CCI, Tippmann, Planet Eclipse, Tiberius Arms, and DYE. Distributor for Valken, KEE and GI Sportz.
203-906-9621 or 9622
Yankee Paintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump