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Old 07-23-2012, 03:41 PM #1
edless
 
 
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Geo3 Dwell Tuning methodology

Stock Dwell 26.2

How to Dwell Tune your GEO 3:

1.Choose your bolt (soft tip to shoot fragile, hard to get better efficiency)
2.Choose the SFR setting you want to play with (horizontal to restrict, vertical for free flow)
3.Chrono (choose the velo)
4.Dwell Tune (reduce dwell by 1ms increment untill noticing velo drop, then add back 1-2 ms to be on the safe side)
5.Make sure your BPS is contant and at the rate you desire - if bps problem go back to 2 or increase dwell

***Remenber: Dwell tuning makes your gun less tolerant to un-optimize lubrification
***Remenber: Jack recommends reliable stock dwell settings

For reliabitlity consideration, you should not mess with your dwell untill approx 30K shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Wood View Post
"You should always dwell tune with everything else on the gun set as you intend to use it.
That means set the velocity, select the bolt and select the SFR setting you want to run and then the VERY LAST thing you do is tune the dwell.
If you change the velocity, change the bolt or adjust the SFR at all you should really go back and dwell tune again.
You should always allow 1-2ms on top of your dwell tuned time for reliability. Also expect to have to lubricate the gun more often and start to experience FSDO earlier with a critically dwelled gun. That goes for any gun, not just Geo3.
Jack

I would always recommend running the dwell at factory for reliability.

You can close the SFR straight away but I definitely wouldn't lower the dwell below factory until you've got a few cases through it.

Every gun is different, but here is my today's experimentation
I am at 26K shots with the full metal bolt

Dwell at:
22 - too low
23 ms - shooting good (consitant velo) sfr open and close, notice velo drop when ramping... about 20 fps lower than one balling
24 ms - seems to be my sweetspot

The sound signature is much nicer with lower dwell compared to stock on my gun with sfr close.
Can't wait for my gun to fully broken.

/************************************************** */

Update at 30 000 shots:

I found better consistancy with sfr at 2oclock (not open not close)

With sfr horizontal, i notice lower velocity when ramping, one balling is fine, but 15bps the velo drop by approx 20fps... no matter what dwell.

Last edited by edless : 09-10-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:44 PM #2
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I also didn't really hear any difernce in the sound signature when adjusting the sfr...and mine has exactly 5194 shots.. I'm going to play with the dwell tomorrow and see what's up.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:08 AM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob-Murry
I also didn't really hear any difernce in the sound signature when adjusting the sfr...and mine has exactly 5194 shots.. I'm going to play with the dwell tomorrow and see what's up.
I could tell the difference in Sound right away when adjusting mine was all stock
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:33 AM #4
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Question to Eclipse, knowing that I want to play with SFR fully close, should I dwell tune with sfr open or close?
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:56 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96 Ls lnteg View Post
I could tell the difference in Sound right away when adjusting mine was all stock
Did you get yours new ? And I really didn't hear any difference in mine... But I just got done shooting it today with the dwell lowered to 20 ms and the sfr makes noticeable changes when adjusting it .. I don't have a chrono at the house but it seemed to be shooting at around 300 fps ...
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:03 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob-Murry

Did you get yours new ? And I really didn't hear any difference in mine... But I just got done shooting it today with the dwell lowered to 20 ms and the sfr makes noticeable changes when adjusting it .. I don't have a chrono at the house but it seemed to be shooting at around 300 fps ...
Yup brand new
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:47 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96 Ls lnteg View Post
Yup brand new
Oh ok... Either way mine is still very smooth... Once I turned the dwell down it got smoother but like said I don't have a chrono on hand .. All the that really is is I LOVE ❤❤❤ this marker ...
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:06 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edless View Post
Question to Eclipse, knowing that I want to play with SFR fully close, should I dwell tune with sfr open or close?
1. What do you mean by "open" and "close"? (it might be easier to understand if you said pointing up, or pointing down/to the side.

2. You might want to post this in the news thread about the geo3, as I have seen Jack Wood, Nicky T from PE checking that thread and responding to people numerous times there.

3. Doesnt PE recommend we break in the gun before changing dwell? I thought it was something like 10 cases before we should tinker with dwell?
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:25 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgill07 View Post
1. What do you mean by "open" and "close"? (it might be easier to understand if you said pointing up, or pointing down/to the side.

2. You might want to post this in the news thread about the geo3, as I have seen Jack Wood, Nicky T from PE checking that thread and responding to people numerous times there.

3. Doesnt PE recommend we break in the gun before changing dwell? I thought it was something like 10 cases before we should tinker with dwell?
I actually talked to a tech today and he did say that it needs around 10-15 cases before fine tuning the dwell. But after edless said that by lowering the dwell he could see a difference between sfr adjustment.. So I figured I'd give it a shot.
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:47 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob-Murry View Post
Did you get yours new ? And I really didn't hear any difference in mine... But I just got done shooting it today with the dwell lowered to 20 ms and the sfr makes noticeable changes when adjusting it .. I don't have a chrono at the house but it seemed to be shooting at around 300 fps ...
I think what I'll do is set up the minimal dwell with sfr fully close, and then open the sfr if I have inconsistency due to different weather/condition/paint/etc
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:56 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgill07 View Post
1. What do you mean by "open" and "close"? (it might be easier to understand if you said pointing up, or pointing down/to the side.

Open = no restriction ( up )
Close = 100% restriction ( side )

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgill07 View Post
2. You might want to post this in the news thread about the geo3, as I have seen Jack Wood, Nicky T from PE checking that thread and responding to people numerous times there.
Maybe, but after a while, it's not a news anymore, and this type of question should be here....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgill07 View Post
3. Doesnt PE recommend we break in the gun before changing dwell? I thought it was something like 10 cases before we should tinker with dwell?
All guns are set to 26.2 by default, they always put the default on the safe side so it work for all guns, if it works right away with lower dwell, why not...

I think the meaning of what PE recommend should be interprete like this:
'after 10 cases, you can assess the full potentlial of a particular gun'

I still need to do proper testing with chrono and top quality paint, but let just say I was less despointed when I heard the gun with lower dwell. It give me hope, I might be able to get something nice in near future
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:57 AM #12
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Well this sounds like a question that many more of us will have when these guns actually start arriving in the US for all of the people that want them or have preorders on them, so this should be our formal request for Nicky T or Jack wood to chime in to save the day:

What are the official PE recommendations for dwell settings? Specifically, for players like myself and the other dude in this thread that want to keep the SFR closed or closer to the closed side, should we tweak the dwell a bit lower? or are there any other tuning recommendations, given that preference? Thanks in advance for any insight you may be able to provide.
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Old 07-25-2012, 02:28 AM #13
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From the geo3 manual:

"The DWELL can be set between 0.0 and 30.0 milliseconds. The factory default setting can normally be reduced after a few thousand shots as the Geo3 'beds-iní."

Also, I believe some guys talk about this in the geo 3 thread in the news section, whether it is news or not doesnt matter; the gun is definitely news right now.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:15 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edless View Post
Question to Eclipse, knowing that I want to play with SFR fully close, should I dwell tune with sfr open or close?
You should always dwell tune with everything else on the gun set as you intend to use it.

That means set the velocity, select the bolt and select the SFR setting you want to run and then the VERY LAST thing you do is tune the dwell.

If you change the velocity, change the bolt or adjust the SFR at all you should really go back and dwell tune again.

You should always allow 1-2ms on top of your dwell tuned time for reliability. Also expect to have to lubricate the gun more often and start to experience FSDO earlier with a critically dwelled gun. That goes for any gun, not just Geo3.

Jack
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:22 AM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgill07 View Post
Well this sounds like a question that many more of us will have when these guns actually start arriving in the US for all of the people that want them or have preorders on them, so this should be our formal request for Nicky T or Jack wood to chime in to save the day:

What are the official PE recommendations for dwell settings? Specifically, for players like myself and the other dude in this thread that want to keep the SFR closed or closer to the closed side, should we tweak the dwell a bit lower? or are there any other tuning recommendations, given that preference? Thanks in advance for any insight you may be able to provide.
I would always recommend running the dwell at factory for reliability.

The slower you make the bolt speed by reducing the SFR, the more Dwell you need to have to allow time for the bolt to get all the way forward.

E.G. If you slow the bolt down using the SFR so that it takes the bolt 25ms to get all the way forward and dump the firing chamber, but you set the dwell to 20ms, you are not giving the bolt enough time to get all the way forward and release all the air.
(this is a very simplified model of what happens)
You can see from this example that you will need an absolute minimum dwell time of 25ms in order for the bolt to move forward and release all the air to fire a full velocity shot.
In reality the time it takes for the bolt to move all the way forward and release all the air changes slightly from shot to shot, so you always need a little safety margin in the dwell setting to make sure that every shot fires at full velocity.

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Old 07-25-2012, 07:26 PM #16
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Thanks Jack. That definitely clears up a lot.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:06 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Wood View Post

Also expect to have to lubricate the gun more often and start to experience FSDO earlier with a critically dwelled gun. That goes for any gun, not just Geo3.

Jack
Tx a lot BTW

I understand why a dwell tuned gun would be less tolerant to un-optimise lubrification.

But what do you exaclty mean by experience FSDO earlier? earlier in the life of the gun or earlier in "time" between shots? If the later, isn't somthing you can prevent by correctly dwell tuning the gun and/or using more agressive FSDO settings? If earlier in the life of the gun, can you describe the phenomea? (life of solenoid or oring or what?)

Last edited by edless : 07-25-2012 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:44 AM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edless View Post
Tx a lot BTW

I understand why a dwell tuned gun would be less tolerant to un-optimise lubrification.

But what do you exaclty mean by experience FSDO earlier? earlier in the life of the gun or earlier in "time" between shots? If the later, isn't somthing you can prevent by correctly dwell tuning the gun and/or using more agressive FSDO settings? If earlier in the life of the gun, can you describe the phenomea? (life of solenoid or oring or what?)
I mean earlier in the maintenence schedule.

When you have a freshly lubed gun you tend to get very little FSDO. As the gun is used, grease dissipates, thickens and attracts dirt and debris and the frictional forces increase within the bolt system. This slows down the bolt speed and also creates more "stiction". It is the "stiction" that causes FSDO. Stiction is basically resistance to initial movement and it can be found on most things that use o-rings to seal them. The stiction of the bolt system increases as the gun ages after being lubed. As the stictions increases on the first shot, the longer it takes for the bolt to get forward on the first shot (subsequent shots are always faster than the very first shot after a lay-up). If you have a critcal dwell that you set when the lube was fresh and new, then after the gun has been used a bit and stiction and friction have increased, then the dwell + FSDO comp no longer add up to enough time for the bolt to fully cycle on the first shot.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:26 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Wood View Post
I mean earlier in the maintenence schedule.

When you have a freshly lubed gun you tend to get very little FSDO. As the gun is used, grease dissipates, thickens and attracts dirt and debris and the frictional forces increase within the bolt system. This slows down the bolt speed and also creates more "stiction". It is the "stiction" that causes FSDO. Stiction is basically resistance to initial movement and it can be found on most things that use o-rings to seal them. The stiction of the bolt system increases as the gun ages after being lubed. As the stictions increases on the first shot, the longer it takes for the bolt to get forward on the first shot (subsequent shots are always faster than the very first shot after a lay-up). If you have a critcal dwell that you set when the lube was fresh and new, then after the gun has been used a bit and stiction and friction have increased, then the dwell + FSDO comp no longer add up to enough time for the bolt to fully cycle on the first shot.

This makes perfect sense, tx for the more in depth explanation

Edit:
I experienced this today, after 10 points, my velo decreased, I think I'll add few MS to avoid this

Every gun is different, but here is my testing today
I am at 12K shots with the full metal bolt

Dwell at:
20 ms - shooting consitant with sfr fully open (290), but problem with velo sfr fully closed (shooting 230)
22.5 ms - shooting good (consitant velo) sfr open and close, but experience velo drop and fsdo in the middle of my practice.
will up my dwell to 24ms next practice hoping for no FSDO/drop

The sound signature is much nicer with lower dwell compared to stock on my gun with sfr close.
Can't wait for my gun to fully broken.

Last edited by edless : 07-29-2012 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 07-30-2012, 02:11 PM #20
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what is the best setting for smoother shooting?
higher dwell and sfr in a more horizontal setting or sfr more vertical and lower dwell setting?
i have mine sfr in the middle and the dwell 20! and it shoots ok! i tried to put the sfr horizontal with the dwell 20 and it dose not work at all
also wich bolt works better for a smooth shooting?
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Old 07-30-2012, 02:28 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorusso View Post
what is the best setting for smoother shooting?
higher dwell and sfr in a more horizontal setting or sfr more vertical and lower dwell setting?
i have mine sfr in the middle and the dwell 20! and it shoots ok! i tried to put the sfr horizontal with the dwell 20 and it dose not work at all
also wich bolt works better for a smooth shooting?

SFR close (horizontal) should be the smootest due to the bolt moving slower

You are getting the same results as mine, 20ms of dwell is too low for sfr horizontal
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