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Old 07-23-2012, 02:09 PM #64
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Originally Posted by licence_to_kill View Post
what does that have to do with anything? the heart of the euro crisis is a large productivity gap between the core countries and the periphery. thats why many of the northern countries are actually far more indebted than the southern europe but can still borrow at zero and negative real interest rates while the GIPSI countries are facing immense borrowing costs.

In the U.S. we don't have this problem because we have extremely high labor mobility and net fiscal transfers from high productivity states to low productivity states.

I think there is something wrong with your chart.
Maine had a $50 miilion dollar surplus, Wyoming had a a $billion dollar surplus, and North Dakota had a $billion dollars surplus last year as well and yet all three are listed as "deficit". California is listed a a surplus state?
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:18 PM #65
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this is over 20 years. it has nothing to do with state budgets, it's about federal taxes paid vs federal money received.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:42 PM #66
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:30 PM #67
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this is over 20 years. it has nothing to do with state budgets, it's about federal taxes paid vs federal money received.
Define "federal money received"... No offence but if your criteria is federal tax moneys collected VS federal dollar expenditures for this such as National Parks, Forest Services, Roads, Military bases, etc, than you would expect your graph to show high populations centers than have lower federal lands or small size would have a constant net surplus while low population centers or states would have a deficit. Which it does.

I guess I don't know what you graph is trying to tell us. North Dakota has a low population so it doesn't generate much income tax butf it recieves a lot of Governmnet money to maintain thousands of miles of roads. Of course if you defund N. Dakota so their government grants match what their population base creates their roads go to crap you knock out a major energy exporter to other states, which in turn has a drastic negative impact on the entire country. Not to mention you would have to close most of teh National parks and forests in the state. New Jersy with its high population, small size, and limitied federal lands would have streets made of gold but still have enitre townships declairing bankruptcy due to mismangament of cost incured VS taxes recieved.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:56 PM #68
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:55 PM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarusrat View Post
Define "federal money received"... No offence but if your criteria is federal tax moneys collected VS federal dollar expenditures for this such as National Parks, Forest Services, Roads, Military bases, etc, than you would expect your graph to show high populations centers than have lower federal lands or small size would have a constant net surplus while low population centers or states would have a deficit. Which it does.
Well there is Florida...

However of course you're going to see that trend. People flock to highly productive metropolis' where earnings are higher. That's why i pointed out that high labor mobility is one of the key attributes that makes the 'dollar zone' work as compared to the 'euro zone.'

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I guess I don't know what you graph is trying to tell us.
easy, money from rich states is redistributed to poorer states. thats how a currency union should work.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:59 AM #70
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Ok, so I said this.

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Ok, Unions killed detroit.

Get rid of unions and their ability to not work for massive amounts of money and you will be doing better...

which party is pushed, and pushes unions?

Which party is attacking the airline trying to build a NON union plant?

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/10/31/...-or-shut-down/

One guess...
Then Gonzo said this

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How about justifying this with facts rather than right-wing thinktank garbage? Be forewarned it will be difficult, as facts simply do not bear out your claim.

The reason the industry tanked was not unions in any way, shape, or form. Labor expenses add an insignificant amount of price to car -- it was poor management decisions that led to producing vehicles that people did not want or need. Corporate thinking is shortsighted and profit-centered, leading to a kind of societal blindness. It was a trivial task to justify or offset the slim labor cost differential.

Notice how all the foreign cars that outcompeted us during this time are from more socialized nations. That's not a coincidence.

Unions as of today are the only reason the US car industry still exists. What little political power workers have at least allowed it to be recognized what a devastating effect the conservative idea of letting the US auto industry die would have had, and provided a means by which to be involved in the rebuilding of the industry away from narrow corporate thinking. It has been a success.

Far more of a success than the prior corporate governance. Again this is not ancient history, just happened a few years ago. Quit trying to rewrite recent history.


I happen to be friends with guys who own companies that provide specialized engine parts to the auto industry, and we have talked at length about why American autos were destroyed in the 90's.

Fact is, UNIONS didn't want to go to higher tolerance manufacturing. Meaning, Honda and Toyota started producing cars with tolerances of .001, where the American counterpart was making cars with tolerances of .01.

Do you understand that the Japanese car would be better than the American car because .001 is a tighter tolerance than .01?

So when building an engine, having that much tighter tolerances means the car is much better built, you find problems and fix them as the tighter tolerances meant that you had to build a much better product. They were able to use higher end materials which also lasted longer, but it took an investment in better equipment to produce those parts. And the union members didn't want to learn new equipment so they pushed back, and since they have such power, they actually stopped the progress, and the Japanese auto makers picked up market share.

I purchased a 99 Acura TL brand new, and personally drove it 300,000 miles, without changing any major part on it. (only oil changes, and belts). I got 100,000 miles out of each set of tires, and 90,000 miles out of each set of brakes.

Because it was so well made. The American car companies realized they had to go to the .001 standard, so they too tried, but every time the union shut them down... Today they use that same standard, and their quality has gone way up, but the damage was done, as the public sees them as "lower quality".

That is a direct example of the unions hurting the companies they work for, because for them it was an EASIER job to do things to .01 tolerances with the old machines they had, if they had to work harder, and learn new equipment to go down to .001 they would a more difficult job... and unions don't like that. No matter what it means to their long term employment.

That is a REAL WORLD example of unions hurting Detroit...

If you would like to read another example, look at Boeing and their plant they built in SC... And watch how the unions/Obama tried to block that plant, as it wasn't union.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...outh-carolina/
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:02 PM #71
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Originally Posted by licence_to_kill View Post
Well there is Florida...

However of course you're going to see that trend. People flock to highly productive metropolis' where earnings are higher. That's why i pointed out that high labor mobility is one of the key attributes that makes the 'dollar zone' work as compared to the 'euro zone.'
Yet they left Detroit. Arguably for bigger reasons than jobs - car thefts, murder, crime in general was rampant years ago in Detroit.

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easy, money from rich states is redistributed to poorer states. thats how a currency union should work.
If California is so flush with cash, how are they in a financial situation from hell with cities filing for bankruptcy? Shouldn't they be helping themselves out before a ****hole like Mississippi? And how exactly is that wealth "redistributed" to said states?

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Visit Sao Paulo's favelas then talk to me... detroit still has some semblance of a government, when I went to Brazil they hadn't invaded (yes, invaded with their military) the favelas so the gangs ran everything. They are trying to get things cleaned up for the olympics and world cup, but before that started it was like being on a different planet.
No, and I thought it was a stretch to say Detroit was the single worst place in the world (as far as structures and lack of guaranteed safety), but certainly not the country. What were you in Brazil for - fun or work related? Is it fair to say that Sao Paulo resembles Mexico City, or is it much worse?
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:52 PM #72
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Having spent some time there, I can say that Detroit is a mostly harmless place. Don't go walking around looking like some vulnerable suburban white boy at 3AM and you will have no problems. Its almost like the wild west in a way, its a ****hole but the emptiness is so exploitable.
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:50 AM #73
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Sadly in the US we have many cities that have been run into the ground, are more or less bankrupt, and as a result will not be able to pay off their debts - is my guess.

As for Detroit's condition, recall this article on what went wrong with the city's government.

"Rogue Democrats Loot Detroit As Nation Sleeps"

http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...nation-sleeps/

snippet from the article:

Quote:
Few readers will be surprised to learn that decades of incompetence and entrenched corruption in Detroitís government have not only helped wreck the city; firms linked to former Democratic mayor Kwame Kilpatrick also looted the pension fund.
The latest scandal, which leaves even hardened observers of the abysmal Democratic machine that has run the city into the ground bemused, involves a real estate firm which gave the felonious mayor massages, golf outings, trips in chartered jets and other perks as this enemy of the people went about his hypocritical business of pretending to care about the poor while robbing them blind. The firm, apparently run by a sleazy low class crook named by the reprehensible Kilpatrick to be the Treasurer of what was left of Detroitís finances, used Detroit pension funds to buy a couple of California strip malls. Title to the properties was never transferred to the pension funds, and they seem to be out $3.1 million.
Kilpatrickís partner in slime is his ex-college frat brother Jeffrey Beasley, who is accused of taking bribes and kickbacks as he made bad investments that cost pension funds $84 million. Overall, a Detroit Free Press investigation estimates that corrupt and incompetent trustees appointed by Democratic officials over many years in Detroit are responsible for almost half a billion dollars in investments gone wrong.
I honestly donít know why there is so little national outrage about this despicable crew and the terrible damage they have done. The ultimate victims of the crime are Detroitís poor and the middle class and lower middle class, mostly African-American municipal workers who may face serious financial losses in old age....
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