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Old 07-20-2012, 05:25 PM #43
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An easier analogy for the analysis of objective quality vs subjective value towards a political party is probably the car. If you take a vehicle which has a great fast and fuel efficient engine, good blowing AC and appealing body design (aesthetics) but the car suffers from poor design and thus has a faulty radiator and transmission while the throttle tends to lock up, you have a poor Quality car. No matter how much value you assigned to the components, as a whole it is of poor Quality.

The pragmatic in us will say we can swap out the derelict and disfunctional parts of the vehicle yet, as any musician can tell you, if you change enough parts of the song it ceases to be what it was and became a different song entirely.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:02 PM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negligence DawnBeak View Post
An easier analogy for the analysis of objective quality vs subjective value towards a political party is probably the car. If you take a vehicle which has a great fast and fuel efficient engine, good blowing AC and appealing body design (aesthetics) but the car suffers from poor design and thus has a faulty radiator and transmission while the throttle tends to lock up, you have a poor Quality car. No matter how much value you assigned to the components, as a whole it is of poor Quality.

The pragmatic in us will say we can swap out the derelict and disfunctional parts of the vehicle yet, as any musician can tell you, if you change enough parts of the song it ceases to be what it was and became a different song entirely.
And I'd rather focus on the multiple designs for every part from every car and pick and choose which ones work best. If we did that, rather than worrying about what's already given to us as a package, we can create a new package that is the best option for the most people.

"Ford made the GT40, so they are always great. Dodge made the Neon, so they will always suck" is not a proper way to analyze. Instead, we should analyze what aspects work and which ones don't to determine the best possible solution. The make or model need not matter; the overall performance from the culmination of adapting the best possible solutions is what matters.

There's nothing wrong with creating a different song entirely.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:04 PM #45
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Wait... So how do we know these people are interested in advancing their agenda? Perhaps by... looking at the policies they support? Maybe we should focus on which policies work and which don't, seeing as that's the very foundation of what makes people wrong or right in your eyes.

Remember, no two people are the same. Believe it or not, two liberals can have vastly different views. Placing blanket statements over a generalization for political affiliation is childish.
you act as though policies are independent of the people/groups who make them. They aren't. They are a direct result of the ideology of their makers. If a policy is bad that is an indictment of the person/group who instituted it.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:04 PM #46
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This 2nd video is shorter, but the part where the guy mentions he is in city center and those skyscrapers are all abandon - damn.
looks worse than Chernobyl, kinda sad
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:11 PM #47
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you act as though policies are independent of the people/groups who make them. They aren't. They are a direct result of the ideology of their makers. If a policy is bad that is an indictment of the person/group who instituted it.
Thus we should approach the policy itself and correct it. The person behind it matters not. The policy is what holds the effect.

I'll ask again, what does blaming someone do? What does it do that changing the policy can't? I shouldn't have to explain how changing a policy has a broader effect over pointing fingers...
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:16 PM #48
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Thus we should approach the policy itself and correct it. The person behind it matters not. The policy is what holds the effect.

I'll ask again, what does blaming someone do? What does it do that changing the policy can't? I shouldn't have to explain how changing a policy has a broader effect over pointing fingers...
The thing is, we can't change policies without electing people to do that for us. Every situation is different, but the majority of the time you can tell which kind of policies will be favored based on what party and what ideas the individual asking for your vote is supporting or part of.

I would never say to only look at party when making a voting decision, but when I say something like "liberals" I'm referring to those that adopt and support liberal policies - many of them could even be republicans.

In effect, the party represents the policies. It's broad, but there are many other threads where things are talked about in a more acute sense.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:52 PM #49
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Baltimore isn't a wonderful place, but it's not even a fraction as bad as most make it out to be. I live in rural MD and my friends are literally terrified go there for absolutely no reason other than the media hype.
Bull ****. I've been in third world countries that were nicer than Baltimore.

BTW, Inner Harbor isn't nice. Inner Harbor is what a major city is SUPPOSED to look at. Please stop pointing to as proof that Baltimore isn't the most horrid place in the US. There's no reason for the entire city not to be that nice.
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:23 PM #50
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Bull ****. I've been in third world countries that were nicer than Baltimore.

BTW, Inner Harbor isn't nice. Inner Harbor is what a major city is SUPPOSED to look at. Please stop pointing to as proof that Baltimore isn't the most horrid place in the US. There's no reason for the entire city not to be that nice.
Dude, I literally never said anything about the inner harbor. I have no idea what the **** you're on about.

Baltimore is a pretty ****ty place, but people make seem like you can't walk down the street without getting shot 9 times. That's simply not true. Baltimore ****ing blows, but there are much worse places to be.

What third world countries have you been to?(honest, completely unrelated question if you actually have)

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Old 07-20-2012, 08:26 PM #51
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Thus we should approach the policy itself and correct it. The person behind it matters not. The policy is what holds the effect.

I'll ask again, what does blaming someone do? What does it do that changing the policy can't? I shouldn't have to explain how changing a policy has a broader effect over pointing fingers...
non sequitur to the max. We have to hold the people who institute ****ty policy accountable or they just get the opportunity to make more ****ty policy.
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Old 07-20-2012, 09:36 PM #52
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The thing is, we can't change policies without electing people to do that for us. Every situation is different, but the majority of the time you can tell which kind of policies will be favored based on what party and what ideas the individual asking for your vote is supporting or part of.

I would never say to only look at party when making a voting decision, but when I say something like "liberals" I'm referring to those that adopt and support liberal policies - many of them could even be republicans.

In effect, the party represents the policies. It's broad, but there are many other threads where things are talked about in a more acute sense.
This is why we hold those individuals accountable, not the entire party. We can change who we put in office. Hold that person accountable for what goes on.

I'm sorry, but there are liberal policies that work. There are also conservative policies that work. It's one a one-size-fits-all scenario.

I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country and we're not doing too shabby...

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non sequitur to the max. We have to hold the people who institute ****ty policy accountable or they just get the opportunity to make more ****ty policy.
Well, that makes some sense. But making blanket statements at who is responsible for ****ty policy doesn't. Also, the best way to counter their ability to make more ****ty policy is to implement or change policy to make it more effective. Again, the attention is on the policy itself, not blaming a general group who put it in.

I'm not going to blame Muslims for 9/11. I'm not going to say all priests rape little boys. I'm not going to say that blacks are unintelligent. I'm not going to say that Part A is at fault for a failing policy. It would do you much better to hold the individuals accountable. We need people with different points of view to challenge each other and come up with the best solution. Unfortunately, the focus is on the party affiliation rather than the policy itself. If we simply stuck to the policy, we can both work at implementing fixes to better the policy, rather than worrying about bickering over which party is better or which party is at fault.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:10 PM #53
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This is why we hold those individuals accountable, not the entire party. We can change who we put in office. Hold that person accountable for what goes on.

I'm sorry, but there are liberal policies that work. There are also conservative policies that work. It's one a one-size-fits-all scenario.

I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country and we're not doing too shabby...
If you go state by state, I believe a few people here have posted how liberal run states on the whole are doing much worse financially. But you're right, we can hold the said people accountable and not mention that every mayor of Detroit was a democrat, but we would have to look at their policies. Now, if those identify with typically left policies, then it would blame the democrats. However, as I linked, there are some that blame race more than policies, and there is even a book written about the subject that seems to have facts and positive feedback. So perhaps this argument is moot as far as Detroit goes.


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I'm not going to blame Muslims for 9/11. I'm not going to say all priests rape little boys. I'm not going to say that blacks are unintelligent.
That's completely fine. But the fact that some people do - it tells me, that it wasn't done at random. There must be at least some evidence to imply that those claims may indeed be true. Otherwise they really shouldn't gain much traction and continue to build credibility.
It's fine and dandy to blame individuals, but if those individuals continue to do harm and have a common bond, attacking the bond is thought to be quicker. It's like blaming the guy pushing drugs to people on the street - much more efficient to nail the guy supplying him with the drugs. Which is what the cops actually attempt to do.

Let's take labels aside for now - any thoughts on Detroit's current (ongoing) problems, and how to solve them? I can't think of a single city in worse shape than Detroit. Not even close.
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:01 PM #54
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If you go state by state, I believe a few people here have posted how liberal run states on the whole are doing much worse financially. But you're right, we can hold the said people accountable and not mention that every mayor of Detroit was a democrat, but we would have to look at their policies. Now, if those identify with typically left policies, then it would blame the democrats. However, as I linked, there are some that blame race more than policies, and there is even a book written about the subject that seems to have facts and positive feedback. So perhaps this argument is moot as far as Detroit goes.
many of the poorest states in the country are ran by conservatives...
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:33 PM #55
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many of the poorest states in the country are ran by conservatives...
poorest doesn't equal doing worse financially

Many of the southern states main industries are farming, which is a needed but doesn't bring in alot of money. So states like Mississippi will always be one of the poorest, which is okay, because they are an agricultural state. My state, Arkansas, is not as poor as Mississippi but not rich either. But we have a balanced budget and our unemployment is lower than the national average.

But states like CA, who have still alot of industry, even in the recession, and considered one of the "richer" states, are doing horrible financially.
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:42 PM #56
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many of the poorest states in the country are ran by conservatives...
http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/11/news...mies/index.htm

Which of those states is conservative?
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Old 07-22-2012, 03:43 AM #57
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poorest doesn't equal doing worse financially

Many of the southern states main industries are farming, which is a needed but doesn't bring in alot of money. So states like Mississippi will always be one of the poorest, which is okay, because they are an agricultural state. My state, Arkansas, is not as poor as Mississippi but not rich either. But we have a balanced budget and our unemployment is lower than the national average.
California crushes every state in the south (and the whole union) when it comes to agricultural output. We have higher wages because we have much higher productivity levels.

If this were the Eurozone we'd be Germany and you'd be Greece. Luckily we're not the eurozone so low productivity states like Mississippi get subsidized by high productivity states like California and New York.
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:27 AM #58
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California crushes every state in the south (and the whole union) when it comes to agricultural output. We have higher wages because we have much higher productivity levels.

If this were the Eurozone we'd be Germany and you'd be Greece. Luckily we're not the eurozone so low productivity states like Mississippi get subsidized by high productivity states like California and New York.
We'd be greece? How many southern cities have filed for bankrupcy?
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:28 AM #59
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Detroit is a perfect example of where liberalism gets a city. No law abiding citizens have guns, only criminals and cops don't care about the drugs so they practically rot the inner cities like a virus.

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California crushes every state in the south (and the whole union) when it comes to agricultural output. We have higher wages because we have much higher productivity levels.
What's your deficit again? Like 20 billion? Great call.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:59 AM #60
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California crushes every state in the south (and the whole union) when it comes to agricultural output. We have higher wages because we have much higher productivity levels.

If this were the Eurozone we'd be Germany and you'd be Greece. Luckily we're not the eurozone so low productivity states like Mississippi get subsidized by high productivity states like California and New York.


California may be the top state in agricultural output, not disputing that. The "We'd be Germany and you'd be Greece" comment is kinda lol though. Remind me of how many cities in California have filed for bankruptcy and of your state's debt?

As far as agricultural accomplishments go, It is also the 2nd biggest of the lower 48 states. If we drew a ring around the Midwest states from southern Minnesota down to Arkansas, the same size as California - then you'd see areas with higher productivity. My point is that California's ideal land location and length going downward, no mountains, allows them that luxury, not necessarily that they are more productive with what they have. (I understand "but that's multiple states you used") California being high agricultural hasn't helped them balance their debt worth **** apparently either.

Do you think a "Detroit" is in danger of happening to any of the cities in California? It's a fair question. Do you think all the illegal aliens would up and leave a city, go back to Mexico, and see massive abandonment to a place with roughly over a million people currently? Do you think Detroit was ruined due to Auto industry leaving, blacks and gangs, liberal leadership, or something else?
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:49 AM #61
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Visit Sao Paulo's favelas then talk to me... detroit still has some semblance of a government, when I went to Brazil they hadn't invaded (yes, invaded with their military) the favelas so the gangs ran everything. They are trying to get things cleaned up for the olympics and world cup, but before that started it was like being on a different planet.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:40 PM #62
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We'd be greece? How many southern cities have filed for bankrupcy?
what does that have to do with anything? the heart of the euro crisis is a large productivity gap between the core countries and the periphery. thats why many of the northern countries are actually far more indebted than the southern europe but can still borrow at zero and negative real interest rates while the GIPSI countries are facing immense borrowing costs.

In the U.S. we don't have this problem because we have extremely high labor mobility and net fiscal transfers from high productivity states to low productivity states.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:43 PM #63
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Do you think a "Detroit" is in danger of happening to any of the cities in California?
No. All of our major cities are located near the coast in places people want to live in. Thats why property is so expensive.
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