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Old 07-19-2012, 12:48 PM #22
The Inflicted
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I think that after being thrown into mostly-outdoor Cuban prison camp for a good chunk of their lives, if these boys and men weren't willing to lay down their lives against the US then, they are now.

That doesn't mean that locking them up in the first place was just or a good idea in the first place.

Remember that enemy combatant and terrorist are supposed to be separate concepts.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:49 PM #23
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We aren't bringing these people into these prisons at random, you know. It's safe to assume that nearly all of them are indeed guilty. The innocent:guilty ratio is Guantanamo is probably way lower than most American prisons I'd be willing to bet....
If they're guilty, they should be tried and put in prison/executed. If there's no proof of their guilt, they should be let go. I don't want to live in a society where suspicion of guilt is enough to put somebody in prison for years on end. If you don't see a problem with what's going on, then you're an idiot.

Don't try playing the "they're not citizens, therefore they don't have rights" card either. They're doing it to US citizens too.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:08 PM #24
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Maybe it will close right after he repeals the Patriot Act.
You stole my line.

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:20 PM #25
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If they're guilty, they should be tried and put in prison/executed. If there's no proof of their guilt, they should be let go. I don't want to live in a society where suspicion of guilt is enough to put somebody in prison for years on end. If you don't see a problem with what's going on, then you're an idiot.

Don't try playing the "they're not citizens, therefore they don't have rights" card either. They're doing it to US citizens too.
That's different. They are American citizens, thus they deserve American rights.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:28 PM #26
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We aren't bringing these people into these prisons at random, you know. It's safe to assume that nearly all of them are indeed guilty. The innocent:guilty ratio is Guantanamo is probably way lower than most American prisons I'd be willing to bet.

Torture is clearly a good method of obtaining information because if it wasn't, I don't think it would still be going on. Eventually they would put a halt to it if it consistently revealed inaccurate intel.
There have been less than a dozen real assets to come out of Gitmo. Afghan tribes have notoriously falsely accused innocent people of being terrorists in order to get the financial rewards offered by our government. So we snatch them up, drag them half way across the world, shove them in a cell with no representation, and torture them because they aren't giving us good intelligence. The courts have already said that only a fraction of those we have imprisoned have a real chance of being charged with anything.

Torture is widely known to yield inaccurate results. Believe it or not people are willing to say about anything if they are in pain. If the person doesn't know anything in the first place, I bet their information given under torture is excellent.

Just a little tid-bit but the FBI has held the position that the usable intel gained from assets at Gitmo came during their proper treatment of those detained not from torture.


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That's different. They are American citizens, thus they deserve American rights.
Unless I am mistaken, innocent is innocent.

I guess if we are going to assume foreigners are guilty of crimes, don't deserve a fair trial, and should be tortured/executed then we shouldn't mind when they do the same to our troops and soldiers.

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:45 PM #27
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There have been less than a dozen real assets to come out of Gitmo. Afghan tribes have notoriously falsely accused innocent people of being terrorists in order to get the financial rewards offered by our government. So we snatch them up, drag them half way across the world, shove them in a cell with no representation, and torture them because they aren't giving us good intelligence. The courts have already said that only a fraction of those we have imprisoned have a real chance of being charged with anything.
Oh yeah? Wasn't that shown to be false?

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Just a little tid-bit but the FBI has held the position that the usable intel gained from assets at Gitmo came during their proper treatment of those detained not from torture.
I've heard both it works and does not. Depends if you know if you are torturing the right people or not honestly. I believe the FBI and CIA has polar opposite views on what intel was gained by torture/respectable treatment. Not advocating for torture in any way, it would have to be an extreme situation (like say, a known nuclear weapon in NYC, and said captured person was shown to have direct ties to the device).
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:51 PM #28
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Quote:
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That's different. They are American citizens, thus they deserve American rights.
LOL at "American rights." Do you seriously believe that some rights are reserved only for Americans? Or are saying that governments are only obligated to recognize the human rights of their own citizens?

Would you be OK with a foreign government taking US citizens captive, holding them indefinitely without trial, and offering no evidence of their guilt because "they're probably terrorists?"
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:39 PM #29
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In short, it's not closed because Republicans politicized the transfer of detainees out and into supermaxes. Had they not done that, Gitmo would be closed.

It is in their interest to keep Obama from closing Gitmo because as you have demonstrated, it is a useful political weapon to sway ignorant people.
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:54 PM #30
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In short, it's not closed because Republicans politicized the transfer of detainees out and into supermaxes. Had they not done that, Gitmo would be closed.

It is in their interest to keep Obama from closing Gitmo because as you have demonstrated, it is a useful political weapon to sway ignorant people.
So you blame it all on Republicans letting people know the inmates would go to supermax prisons?


So where's the substantiation to the claim that Republicans themselves let out that information? No further discussion of this should be allowed until you substantiate your claim.
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:54 PM #31
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Maybe if the democrats had control of the house, and senate, AND the white house, THEN they would have closed it like they promised.






Oh wait...
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:56 PM #32
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inb4 gonzo claims republicans are blocking it
You beat him to the punch by over 4 hours. Nice work!
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:19 PM #33
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You beat him to the punch by over 4 hours. Nice work!
no, stupid work. that's like posting in a "2+2=3" thread saying "in before gonzo says 2+2=4!"

I say it's 4 because it's 4. Republicans played the political card bigtime with the closure of Gitmo and the transfer of prisoners to the prisons we have all our actual convicted terrorists in, and to this day perpetuate the literal legislative block on funding to close Gitmo.

Obama did pretty much everything he could responsibly do to close Gitmo. He signed the orders to close it his second day in office. You may remember there even was a closing date. Then politics took over. Notice I started documenting Republicans doing it in the very thread we had right here about the signing of the order. Sorry but Obama is the last person anyone should blame about Gitmo still being open.

This is not ancient history or anything, this just happened a few years ago. How could you all forget?
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Last edited by drgonzo : 07-19-2012 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:32 PM #34
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You're making excuses for the supreme commander of the US armed forces.
There were a dozen of other options he could have pursued besides housing the inmates on US soil, none of which he chose to explore.
The reality is that Obama abandons his promises the instant they are no longer politically expedient.

http://www.aclu.org/national-securit...nite-detention
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:47 PM #35
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You're making excuses for the supreme commander of the US armed forces.
There were a dozen of other options he could have pursued besides housing the inmates on US soil, none of which he chose to explore.
The reality is that Obama abandons his promises the instant they are no longer politically expedient.

http://www.aclu.org/national-securit...nite-detention
"The instant"? Horse****. Read a real story on the detention rules. They are a ****ty alternative to Obama's original plans, but they amounted to an INCREASE in the ability to process people out of Gitmo. These new detention rules came about TWO YEARS after he signed the order to close, proposed putting the detainees in the American court system and took a huge amount of political heat for it, including a disastrous midterm election. There is NOTHING politically expedient about the detention rules. They were put into place because *Congress* has not only done nothing to close Gitmo, it has actually made it harder to get people out of there. That is where all blame lies.

As for options outside the US, exactly what options were those? The point of closing Gitmo is to end a situation of questionable legality, morality and efficacy. Transferring detainees to other foreign detention centers solves none of those problems.

Sorry, but you can't lie about this stuff. We have been discussing this here since literally day 1.
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Last edited by drgonzo : 07-19-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:59 PM #36
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****ing troll...
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So you blame it all on Republicans letting people know the inmates would go to supermax prisons?


So where's the substantiation to the claim that Republicans themselves let out that information? No further discussion of this should be allowed until you substantiate your claim.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:02 PM #37
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Straw man.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:16 PM #38
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so how is gonzo actually wrong? just wondering since i don't know anything about this
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:36 PM #39
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so how is gonzo actually wrong? just wondering since i don't know anything about this
He's not
Basically the idea was to close Gitmo and move the detainees to a US supermax facility. As you can imagine Republicans went nuts over this and the hurr durr impressionable people of the nation fell in line.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:44 PM #40
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So you blame it all on Republicans letting people know the inmates would go to supermax prisons?

So where's the substantiation to the claim that Republicans themselves let out that information? No further discussion of this should be allowed until you substantiate your claim.
I don't know that it was any one party that released it, however it was the GOP who through a stink about it.

Though I do agree that he had two years and plenty of cries from voters that should have led him to take action.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:48 PM #41
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You beat him to the punch by over 4 hours. Nice work!
lol!
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:11 PM #42
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He's not
Basically the idea was to close Gitmo and move the detainees to a US supermax facility. As you can imagine Republicans went nuts over this and the hurr durr impressionable people of the nation fell in line.
You said it was because of Republicans only. It's not a straw man to have you substantiate that claim. If you say that the only reason Guantanamo bay is open is because Republicans only, INFORMED the public of where the prisoners would go, then you need to provide at the least a citation from a reputable source. You're saying that democrats had no part in this which is usual for the partisan hack you are.
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