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Old 01-20-2012, 06:20 PM #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
So, to make everything fair, we need to allow only 1 gun, 1 loader, 1 airsystem, etc. in a league..... God forbid someone is shooting a marker that has a higher quality, because they could afford to, or that 1 brand of paint is better that particular weekend - it's downright unfair

Let's stiffle what little diverse industry we have left, and leave just 1 manufacturer standing in each category - I am SURE they would like to pick up the tab and make it cheap and fair to everyone, once they dominate the market completely

Or.... alternatively - maybe people just shouldn't go to national events, until they can afford to?
No, but limiting the paint shot would help. Paintball becomes so boring when people sit there and hold down a lane, shoot, reload, shoot, reload. If people had a limited amount of paint it would make games quicker and promote movement.
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Old 01-20-2012, 06:30 PM #128
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Everything about this seemed pretty legit until I saw the video of them playing the actual format. I don't even know how to describe what I saw. Depending on the layout, most high division players (d2 and up) will just be sitting and shooting the entire time without points being scored or the flag carrier will get shot otb. Great in theory I think, but executed terribly.

Edit- Limiting the paint would be against what seems to be the point of the league, to buy tons of paint.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:14 PM #129
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Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
So, to make everything fair, we need to allow only 1 gun, 1 loader, 1 airsystem, etc. in a league..... God forbid someone is shooting a marker that has a higher quality, because they could afford to, or that 1 brand of paint is better that particular weekend - it's downright unfair

Let's stiffle what little diverse industry we have left, and leave just 1 manufacturer standing in each category - I am SURE they would like to pick up the tab and make it cheap and fair to everyone, once they dominate the market completely

Or.... alternatively - maybe people just shouldn't go to national events, until they can afford to?
... What are you talking about? You missed the point. The amount of paint shot in a game needs to have a set limit. That is it. Shoot what you want with what you want.

To add leauge's already do this. In the CXBL you can only shoot GI paint, you have to wear their supplied jerseys ,you have to pay money to represent your own sponsors and they are run by a paintball store. looks like the start of a monopoly to me.

alternatively would you rather have 100 teams with gear show up or 200 teams with gear show up. Whats better for the hobby/sport of paintball. What helps the stores? what helps the fields? selling to more people!

In all sports you enter the court/rink/pitch as equals. Skill decideds the game. paintball should be no diffrent.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:32 PM #130
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Limited paint will reduce the cost of paint. Even if the entire world were tournament paintball, and there was NO increase in the number of players if paint costs went down, cutting cunsumption by 75% would not increase per-paintball costs by 400%, because you're still using 75% less gelatin, 75% less shipping, 75% less storage, etc.

There's also two other major factors: Tournament paintball is a small portion of overall paint volume, so even a 75% reduction in tournament paint use would amount to maybe a 10% reduction in total paint use industry-wide, and if paint cost goes down, we would have more people participating, which would push volumes back up.

Also, with regards to paint sponsorships... hahahahaha.

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Old 01-20-2012, 09:49 PM #131
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The video before that said the field dimesions were to be 100ft by 180, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is current NPPL size. But that field also looked small to me, although we couldn't see much of the red zone.
Yea if it's 180x100 then the field from the instructional video is definitely not an official layout. There are less than 20 bunkers total on the entire field. There are what, 40+ bunkers on a typical 180x100 NPPL field?
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Old 01-20-2012, 11:43 PM #132
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Why do people do this wanna-be hk thing? I mean hk people dont even play paintball, they just whine and start drama while wearing the ugliest stuff. Seriously you find light blue and pink to be attractive colors for your parents 1500 dollar investment (your gun/marker)? If you want to whine keep it off the field and save it for the internet; O wait! THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO! Haha, if you don't play then don't whine.


I want your G6r parts and upgrades, sell them to me, because you wont get anything for them if you sell/trade them with the gun.
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:22 AM #133
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Over here found that limited paint (H+2) didn't decrease overall consumption much when averaged across games. Then again pros play another level of paintball.

It is true however that the biggest single flaw with the NPL system is the use of uncapped semi. That automatically puts the format into the joke category. 10bps full auto or ramp would make the most sense especially in a format that requires lots of movement to work. High ROFs slow the game down and make it less spectator friendly, not more.
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:39 AM #134
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That automatically puts the format into the joke category. 10bps full auto or ramp would make the most sense especially in a format that requires lots of movement to work. High ROFs slow the game down and make it less spectator friendly, not more.
When the only way to score points is to move, the last thing you want is 4 guys with a half case on each of their backs holding down lanes for 2 minutes solid. You would think they would have at least kept a reasonable cap...
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:41 AM #135
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Over here found that limited paint (H+2) didn't decrease overall consumption much when averaged across games. Then again pros play another level of paintball.
Hopperball plus 2 pods isn't enough of a limit. Take it down to hopperball or maybe hopperball plus 3 pods per team and you'll see paint consumption go down quite a bit.


Uncapped "semi-auto" is fine when you're playing hopperball. Cheaters are out of paint in 10 seconds!

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Old 01-21-2012, 07:31 AM #136
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reading the rule book, some of this is ridiculous.


Reading the Player Guide it sounds like Football + Paintball. Which is what Moneyball was back in 2005...
This league seems REALLY full of itself, and it's rules are more complicated than necessary....

you are completely right, all this is is a ****ty half assed attempt at moneyball revival uinder a new name hoping it will make people play. The website is ****, which means there is no professionalism involved. I mean look at the pre game interviews about the format. they look like they were recorded 10 years ago with that quality.

the format is ****ing stupid and the entire concept is just ****ed. Huge fail.
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:47 AM #137
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Hey now, just because a website looks crappy....


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Old 01-21-2012, 09:32 AM #138
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you are completely right, all this is is a ****ty half assed attempt at moneyball revival uinder a new name hoping it will make people play. The website is ****, which means there is no professionalism involved. I mean look at the pre game interviews about the format. they look like they were recorded 10 years ago with that quality.

the format is ****ing stupid and the entire concept is just ****ed. Huge fail for these ******s
Woah, what's with all of the rage? No reason to get angry about it and start insulting them.

I can agree on the website though (and the videos). It really lacks professionalism, which contributes to my skepticism.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:05 AM #139
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:50 PM #140
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A new game in a new league that only promises to help local amateur players become national champions on a local budget - LOVE IT!

The rules were an interesting read until you watch the video and then its simple as pie - total 3rd grade reading level which is perfect for paintballers - especially me. I am sure that is why they put the basic videos up because some of us need pictures to understand - thank you.

I am going to attend one of the demonstration games and see first hand what the hype is all about. But if its anything like the guys in Oregon, Washington, and Hawaii are saying online - then commence o' festival!

Oh BTW: a uniform is a uniform and for those of you who want to wear pink beanies, everything a different color, and hello kitty stuff - YOU LOOK LIKE CLOWNS and CLOWNS belong in the CIRCUS. I just checked and the traveling CIRCUS schedule can be found at the PSP and NPPL websites. I will not buy a ticket but will laugh at you.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:47 PM #141
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Ah, THERE is the good old Raehl arrogance

However, it's misplaced in this instance, as you clearly misunderstood the point.... unless that was just a random insane, evil laugh?

I am talking about paint manufacturers sponsoring the leagues, and when their sales drop significantly, they obviously will pay the league less..... that deficit in the league budget, has to be covered somehow.
As the operator of the 2nd largest league in the US, I am not at all concerned in the loss of paint sponsorship due to lower consumption per player. The amount of sponsor dollars compared to the amount of money players spend buying paint is tiny. I could replace it by raising entry fees $50 and players would still see a huge decrease in their costs to compete, and that's what matters.

In the long term, a significant reduction in the cost to compete would more than make up for any immediate loss in paint sponsor dollars.


Remember, sponsorships are really rebates, and rebates require buying stuff, and buying stuff costs money.


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Old 01-22-2012, 03:06 PM #142
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
As the operator of the 2nd largest league in the US, I am not at all concerned in the loss of paint sponsorship due to lower consumption per player. The amount of sponsor dollars compared to the amount of money players spend buying paint is tiny. I could replace it by raising entry fees $50 and players would still see a huge decrease in their costs to compete, and that's what matters.

In the long term, a significant reduction in the cost to compete would more than make up for any immediate loss in paint sponsor dollars.


Remember, sponsorships are really rebates, and rebates require buying stuff, and buying stuff costs money.


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I'm curious. Doesn't one of your divisions use a format with timed halves instead of race2? I would assume paint consumption is much higher in this type of format. If this is the case, I find it interesting the timed halves format is being used with your well known stance on limiting paint consumption.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:07 PM #143
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Limited paint while still shooting 10 or 12 BPS, just creates a situation where everyone plays "normal" for the first 2 minutes of a game, and then the game changes, as people start running out.... much like you see in the odd PSP game, when points drag on.... it's interesting when it happens, because its unusual... but it would not be interesting as a standard. People get even more defensive when it happens, because they never know how much paint the opponent has left, they only know they are low themselves.
That's what happens CURRENTLY, but I don't think that's what would happen under limited paint rules.

Way back when XBall first started, people played it wrong. It took a bit for players to get the experience to know how to play under the new rules.

Same with limited paint. Yes, right now, on the occasional point that goes long, you don't know how much paint your opponent has left - partially because you don't know how much they started with. And, the players are not practiced at playing when they themselves don't have much paint. But that's an entirely different situation than when every player starts every point with 1 to 1.5 hoppers of paint. Players will learn how to play aggressively in that format.


I am amused at your assertion about players wanting to shoot people. I agree - people play paintball because they want to shoot people.

That does not, however, in any way support high paint volumes, because high paint volumes do not result in any more shooting of other people. It just results in a whole lot more missing.


The less paint there is, the more movement there can be, and the more shooting of people will result. It'll just take 100 balls per kill instead of 500.


Now, I do agree that at present, the tournament players we have prefer a high-volume format - but that's not because more people prefer a high-volume format, that's just because anybody who DOESN'T prefer a high-volume format has quit already. So, yes, a change to a lower-volume format might result in some of today's current players quitting, however...


...today's current players are going to quit playing paintball soon anyway
...there are a lot more people out there who have the ability to play a low-volume game compared to a high-volume game, since no matter how you slice it, the lower the cost of an activity, the more people can participate in it.


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Old 01-22-2012, 04:34 PM #144
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I don't see any reason to reinvent the wheel. Take a race to format, limit each player to a hopper and 4 pods (regulation size of course no lock lids and pinocchios) and give points a time limit of say 4-5 min for 5-man (more/less for larger and smaller formats).

If the paint is spread evenly is thrusts all player into a forward/mid sort of roll so they have to make moves. The time limit prevents those dull drawn own points. If no flag hang occurs before the time expires, no point for either team.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:40 PM #145
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So, please explain why lowering ROF is a worse option than limiting the paint amount you can start a game with?

Mathematically, the two should achieve the same - albeit your solution being a way more radical one that what I envision being the perfect balance.
First, mathematically, they're not the same.

If you limit someone to X paintballs, the most paint they can shoot is X. Even if X is 500 paintballs, that takes only 100 seconds to shoot at 5 bps.

Second, by limiting total paint instead of ROF, you create additional strategy elements.

One is selecting when to shoot and how fast to shoot when you're shooting. If you simply limit ROF, you're still at the point where players will always be shooting whenever they feel like they can't be shot out themselves.

Another is that all players are not necessarily equal (assuming you make your limit a per-team limit instead of a per-player limit). A team can give more paint to certain players. With an across-the-board ROF limit, all players are equal all of the time. Of course, you could give different players different ROF limits, and I think UWL does some variation of that, but I don't think that's practical to play/enforce in a tournament environment where points are short.


As far as a paint "limit" of a hopper plus 4 pods.... why bother? Most people don't shoot that much in a game anyway. If a paint limit is going to be a limit and it's going to have a significant effect on the game, then it needs to be a LIMIT. Hopper plus 4 pods is just an adjustment.


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Old 01-22-2012, 05:05 PM #146
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limiting paint wont work.. its the fact that teams are shotting 12.5 bps off break laning whats causing the problems. semi auto will fix that... u can shoot 12-13 bps in semi but only if your standing still, you cant do that running and gunning or when your down in the snake...

in every other equipment intensive sports there is limitations. NASCAR has restricter plates to slow down the cars, gold has maximum cc size of drivers to limit how far golfers can drive the ball.

But lets not be dumb and think about this for a second. im 02' 03' there was no ramping allowed in tourneys. The sport was more exciting, there were more run through, teams actually hit snake and the corners off break often.

The point is in 03' 04' 05', The game was exciting to watch and worked. it cost less to play and there was more skill to the game, shooting fast was a skill... when you take away SKLLL aspects of a sport to make it even, then its not a sport... Its not suppose to be even, some people are suppose to be better.. thats like if a 7' basketball player had to play on his knees because playing against a 5'4 player wasnt fair.. WTF?

A lot of people here give a lot credit/respect to the people who are running these events... Why the hell would you take anything these people say for a grain of salt? Thats like taking economic advice from george w bush.. He was a president and ran a country so me must be right? dont listen to the people who made the changes that have hurt the sport for the worst.. they should be run out of their positions...

But back to my point. If I ran the NFL for example, and i changed the way the sport was played. And this change has caused a decline in interest and removed the exciting aspects of the game.. I would GO BACK to how it use to be.. not with these idiots..
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:07 PM #147
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limiting paint wont work.. its the fact that teams are shotting 12.5 bps off break laning whats causing the problems. semi auto will fix that... u can shoot 12-13 bps in semi but only if your standing still, you cant do that running and gunning or when your down in the snake...

in every other equipment intensive sports there is limitations. NASCAR has restricter plates to slow down the cars, gold has maximum cc size of drivers to limit how far golfers can drive the ball.

But lets not be dumb and think about this for a second. im 02' 03' there was no ramping allowed in tourneys. The sport was more exciting, there were more run through, teams actually hit snake and the corners off break often.

The point is in 03' 04' 05', The game was exciting to watch and worked. it cost less to play and there was more skill to the game, shooting fast was a skill... when you take away SKLLL aspects of a sport to make it even, then its not a sport... Its not suppose to be even, some people are suppose to be better.. thats like if a 7' basketball player had to play on his knees because playing against a 5'4 player wasnt fair.. WTF?

A lot of people here give a lot credit/respect to the people who are running these events... Why the hell would you take anything these people say for a grain of salt? Thats like taking economic advice from george w bush.. He was a president and ran a country so me must be right? dont listen to the people who made the changes that have hurt the sport for the worst.. they should be run out of their positions...

But back to my point. If I ran the NFL for example, and i changed the way the sport was played. And this change has caused a decline in interest and removed the exciting aspects of the game.. I would GO BACK to how it use to be.. not with these idiots..
Semi opens up the door for cheating and reffing issues.

keeping ramping but lowering the rof is the best option IMO.
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