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Old 01-18-2012, 06:46 PM #85
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You guys are all missing the point

The format is totally irrelevant.

Paintball is still about shooting the other team, and whatever other rules some egg head tries to impose on the game, are fun to talk about, but for all practical purposes inconsequential.

Same with the PSP vs NPPL vs MS debate - it's all irrelevant once the game is going and you are on the field playing.... the game boils down to it's core then.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:53 PM #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
You guys are all missing the point

The format is totally irrelevant.

Paintball is still about shooting the other team, and whatever other rules some egg head tries to impose on the game, are fun to talk about, but for all practical purposes inconsequential.

Same with the PSP vs NPPL vs MS debate - it's all irrelevant once the game is going and you are on the field playing.... the game boils down to it's core then.
That's not entirely true.

Any format that involves an unlimited number of points in a set amount of time will lead to more aggressive play (most versions of XBall) than a format that has a fixed number of points available (8 prelim games or best 2-of-3).

There is a big difference between the two.

You are right, however, that the difference is definitely not the flag mattering. As long as we're playing a game where you eliminate people on the field by shooting them, and everyone on the field is within range of everyone else on the field, it's going to be a game of elimination 99% of the time.


You could change that up with something like 20 people on a 10-acre field with different objective points, but good luck reffing that.


- Chris
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:58 PM #87
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Exactly my point (the second part)

Paintball, in its nature, cannot have a "focal point", unless we enlarge the fields to the size they had back in the good old 15 mand woodland days..... which is not going to happen.

So all these efforts to come up with a new format, are really a waste of time

As for the first part, if you look closely enough, there is a "big difference" in everything.... but to me, as a player, the differences are miniscule.
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Old 01-18-2012, 07:00 PM #88
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I dunno, there might be something to a format where dead players can "tag in" a live player to replace them, so you're pretty much always playing with a full team.

Don't think anyone could afford to shoot the paint you'd need to play it though, unless you coupled it with something like billy ball.

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Old 01-18-2012, 07:14 PM #89
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I don't think the 99% shoot em all thing is entirely true raehl. I think you're thinking too much inside the box. At the moment it holds because it's always easier to win by elimination than by flag capture, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Make a flag capture or some other goal an equally or more viable way to score during a game and it could change. See my sig link for one example. Paintball can have a focal point, it just needs the right format.
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Old 01-18-2012, 07:53 PM #90
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Originally Posted by vijil View Post
I don't think the 99% shoot em all thing is entirely true raehl. I think you're thinking too much inside the box. At the moment it holds because it's always easier to win by elimination than by flag capture, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Make a flag capture or some other goal an equally or more viable way to score during a game and it could change. See my sig link for one example. Paintball can have a focal point, it just needs the right format.
But, why would we want that?

We play paintball because it's fun to shoot people - the rest is artificial stuff imposed onto the sports core nature.

If anything, we should be purifying the sport, and making it MORE about shooting people, not trying to change it away from what we all enjoy the most.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:25 AM #91
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sounds like it might be fun
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:40 AM #92
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Nick I play paintball because I enjoy strategy and teamwork. I enjoy cool scenarios and I enjoy depth of gameplay. Shooting people is fun, but not enough to keep me interested by itself. You don't speak for everyone when you say it's just about shooting people. Running in the flag while under fire (ie. in woodsball) without shooting anyone can be just as much fun. JRab running in the flag in the last few seconds at Chicago was awesome precisely *because* he did it without eliminating the whole other team first.

Despite that I almost agree with the idea of making standard formats more about shooting people - the flag in both major leagues is a complete waste of time 99% of the time and should be done away with in favour of pure elimination rather than kidding themselves that it's actually part of the game. I don't agree that that's necessarily best for the future of the sport however. The future of the sport (in terms of watchability and fun to play) needs more JRab moments, more focal point and less stalemates and repetitious points. You don't get that with pure elimination, or any current format. NPL is a step in the right direction even if I still think my idea is better.

Last edited by vijil : 01-19-2012 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:58 AM #93
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
That's not entirely true.

Any format that involves an unlimited number of points in a set amount of time will lead to more aggressive play (most versions of XBall) than a format that has a fixed number of points available (8 prelim games or best 2-of-3).

There is a big difference between the two.

You are right, however, that the difference is definitely not the flag mattering. As long as we're playing a game where you eliminate people on the field by shooting them, and everyone on the field is within range of everyone else on the field, it's going to be a game of elimination 99% of the time.


You could change that up with something like 20 people on a 10-acre field with different objective points, but good luck reffing that.


- Chris
Do you support this format Raehl? The NCPA switching over might just be the boost the NPL needs to go big time.

Personally, im still on the fence. I think there are a lot of good ideas but some big changes need to be made also. Mainly in the way the league is setup not the gameplay itself.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:35 AM #94
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Nick I play paintball because I enjoy strategy and teamwork. I enjoy cool scenarios and I enjoy depth of gameplay. Shooting people is fun, but not enough to keep me interested by itself. You don't speak for everyone when you say it's just about shooting people. Running in the flag while under fire (ie. in woodsball) without shooting anyone can be just as much fun. JRab running in the flag in the last few seconds at Chicago was awesome precisely *because* he did it without eliminating the whole other team first.

Despite that I almost agree with the idea of making standard formats more about shooting people - the flag in both major leagues is a complete waste of time 99% of the time and should be done away with in favour of pure elimination rather than kidding themselves that it's actually part of the game. I don't agree that that's necessarily best for the future of the sport however. The future of the sport (in terms of watchability and fun to play) needs more JRab moments, more focal point and less stalemates and repetitious points. You don't get that with pure elimination, or any current format. NPL is a step in the right direction even if I still think my idea is better.
Guess I have to stop putting things so bluntly, if I don't want to get misunderstood

OFCOURSE paintball is not just about shooting people..... that would be insanely boring - it's also about field awareness, thinking tactically, reacting fast, speed, intelligence, technique, accuracy, etc.

My point is - it is mostly never about the format - it may seem so superficially, but in reality, when playing the game, you are only concerned about the other players, and how to get them killed... and how to avoid them killing you.

Paintball has never been fun to me because of the format - it's fun in it's essence, and the rest is inconsequential.

You may think I don't speak for everyone, or even for you, and probably a lot of people will disagree with what I am saying.... but I cannot believe someone would ever think the format was the essential part of the game, and the actual battling another player, gun in hand, secondary.... because then I think they have chosen the wrong sport.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:19 AM #95
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Do you support this format Raehl? The NCPA switching over might just be the boost the NPL needs to go big time.
Apparently you caught on that I was sidestepping comment.

The regional/national setup is a good concept. The NCPA has been using it successfully for a decade.

Most everything else is not well-developed.

The game format appears to add a whole bunch of complexity for no additional benefit over the format we're playing now. That makes it more expensive to run, harder to televise (and I'm one of the few people who actually has to care about ability to televise) and not (in my opinion) any more fun. But, what you consider fun varies from person to person, and I certainly don't like telling other people how they have to play their paintball.

There are a whole bunch of rules that take off of established sports (drafting players, etc) that, for a league that doesn't exist yet, are just creating obstacles to participation. Yes, I get it, people get a warm fuzzy when you tell them they get to be team owners and there's a tryout and draft for players, and it would be great if paintball were in a place where that made sense, but it isn't. At the end of the day people who are PAYING to participate in tournaments (and that's what 99.99% of tournament players are doing) want to pick their teammates, pay their entry fee, show up and play.

An "uncapped semi-auto rule" is not a rule at all.

Given that the rules specify both that you MUST shoot league-branded paint AND you must buy a minimum amount of it per tournament, coupled with the format and the uncapped semi-auto rule, the whole thing appears to be set up to sell the players as much paint as possible.

Which is a certain path to failure for a paintball league. Paint consumption is bad.

Clearly there's someone(s) with a lot of enthusiasm behind this. You can tell that a lot of work has been done. But they have gotten a bit carried away and are trying to do way too much without a handle on the practical details of how it all will work. You can see it in things like this:

Quote:
d. (NPL Expansion) In order for the NPL to expand, agreement is required by all affected Regional venues after a completed application has been accepted. No vote to expand may be presented for any application which has not had diligence performed.
e. The make-up of the official NPL paintball will be decided at the annual NPL Owners meeting with respect and input from the Regional Directors, Players association, and manufactures.
What does "had diligence performed" and "with respect and input" mean?

If I were doing this, I'd start with just running the format at some fields around the country, put the results together, and if that does well, THEN worry about all the other stuff.

Quote:
Personally, im still on the fence. I think there are a lot of good ideas but some big changes need to be made also. Mainly in the way the league is setup not the gameplay itself.
That's a pretty good summary.

So, if you think the format will be fun, give it a whirl, just don't get caught up in all the owner/expansion/meeting/draft stuff. Paintball isn't anywhere close to any of that mattering.


- Chris

Last edited by raehl : 01-19-2012 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:43 AM #96
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could be cool if they do it right. sounds like the MLS of paintball
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:09 AM #97
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Wonder if there are any fields near Ga I don't think they should be doing this whole draft thing. Just set up the tournaments and let the teams form themselves.
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:56 AM #98
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Didnt want to necropost this but I think Kazzy had an interesting idea on here a while back. http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...ighlight=kazzy is the thread. His idea was similar to this in making the flag a focal point but this "flagger" format allowed full use of the field and perhaps a better alternative to the offense/defense dichotomy that paintball seems to desire. Maybe a high-bred of these 2 formats, I dont know just putting ideas out there
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:34 AM #99
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Seems like a good idea, in that they are trying to add a 'focal point' to the game. Similar to moving the football or basketball, it would be easy for non-players to follow, without actually understanding the sport.

Unfortunately the concept seems WAY over analyzed, And the rules too complex to truly encompass all paintball players.

Hopefully they work stuff out
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:27 PM #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post

As for paintball not being on ESPN, you're right, paintball won't be on ESPN again for some time - but that's not because paintball can't be as interesting to watch as other sports, it's because we have never put paintball on TV the "right" way, which is developing the audience for it first.

They televise Golf not because it's a particularly exciting sport to watch, but because there are a lot of people who play golf who will watch it. We need to get back to having more people who casually play paintball, and that audience will support paintball on television.


- Chris
I didn't say paintball wasn't interesting to watch, I said that I don't think this
to be the right format either. I also meant that we should stop trying to get
the format "just right" for tv broadcast, when that ship seemed to have been
sailing for a while now. Can't we just be ok with the sport never turning into
a money-making mainstream machine? Personally I like the - what do we call
it? - "underground" aspects of our little sport\hobby here.

Conversely, if the idea has got to be getting paintball on tv on a much more
widespread manner, not sure if your rec balling crowd will go out of their merry
little ways to find tournament paintball in a "stashed away" cable channel that
might or not be in your line up depending on the cable package you have. Yes,
in a sense the format does not matter. what we need is much more of a sort
an "attitude adjustment", I think.

I'm gonna say it and I can already hear people having a fit before I even do it.
Olympic sport. That's what we need to strive for. Noticed I said - "strive".
Even if it never becomes one, probably never will. Players, industry, media -
all of us - it's the only way of having a small chance to make it "mainstream".
Worldwide governing bodies, unified rules, regional leagues, dopping regulations.
Does not sound like real fun now, does it? But if the idea is to make it on tv,
in my humble opinion, this has to be our best bet. not that I particularly would
want any of that, if I didn't make it clear, I'm just saying.
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:16 PM #101
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^^^^um, what does this have to with the NPPL
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:29 PM #102
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Heh, this thread has nothing to do with the NPPL though.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:17 PM #103
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reading the rules it reads that if one wears a red bandanna, then the rest of the team will wear the same color. same color loader, same color stuff. cleats will be the same color, not the same brand but the same color. uniform means the same color as I read it. am I wrong?
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:33 PM #104
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with as many leagues as there are now, i doubt that it will take off.. i like the idea of the regions though, instead of someone having to travel across the country to compete in one psp event.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:34 PM #105
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People in paintball baffle me sometimes-

For years now people have *****ed about "player recognition" being one of the things holding paintball back. That is to say that because of all the gear covering players up it is difficult for consumers to recognize players on the field and connect with them. Then this league comes around and wants to "uniform" every aspect of the team, so no one can tell who the **** is who.

Furthermore, style and individuality have driven not only this sport, but other sports (snowboarding, skateboarding, basketball, etc) towards having real markets. These guys, again, want to take that away.

I just don't understand the "intellectuals" in our sports. It's like rarely anything truly progressive occurs simply because (often times) the people making decisions don't really have a grasp on what drives and makes tournament ball attractive.


Regardless, the league should be interesting and I like the promotion of local fields.
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