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Old 02-12-2012, 12:21 PM #505
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I think the problem is the rules are from a sport more like football and paintball is more like soccer and hockey. I am saying that during a game the fluidity of paintball is more like soccer. We need to have established local leagues and feeding systems into more competitive leagues.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:45 AM #506
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WOW!
As a field who is part of this new league I wanted to read all 25 pages and I'm not sure why I did. We have done demos of this game on our small indoor field because it's cold in Wisconsin. This game is awesome. I have a few players coming back after years of not playing paintball. One played for an hour and came in the shop to order $1500 worth of gear. But that's not what it's about. It is not for people who have committed to their team for other series and can not play this. They are not saying leave those leagues. People find the reading of the rules confusing. Have you ever read the PSP rules? I'm not bashing, just saying you have to play to understand better. This format conserves on paint. Again, play it, it will prove it. Understand some people will like the format and some will not, just like woodsball. Rules will change as problems occur. Every year the current national formats change rules. You can call me. I love talking about this league. My cellphone is the after hours number on our website. www.thesiegepaintball.com sorry for the ramble, but I needed to after reading all that. Chris, feel free to call me as well. Maybe some new answers could be thought of.

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Old 02-16-2012, 05:43 PM #507
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WOW!
As a field who is part of this new league I wanted to read all 25 pages and I'm not sure why I did. We have done demos of this game on our small indoor field because it's cold in Wisconsin. This game is awesome. I have a few players coming back after years of not playing paintball. One played for an hour and came in the shop to order $1500 worth of gear. But that's not what it's about. It is not for people who have committed to their team for other series and can not play this. They are not saying leave those leagues. People find the reading of the rules confusing. Have you ever read the PSP rules? I'm not bashing, just saying you have to play to understand better. This format conserves on paint. Again, play it, it will prove it. Understand some people will like the format and some will not, just like woodsball. Rules will change as problems occur. Every year the current national formats change rules. You can call me. I love talking about this league. My cellphone is the after hours number on our website. www.thesiegepaintball.com sorry for the ramble, but I needed to after reading all that. Chris, feel free to call me as well. Maybe some new answers could be thought of.

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been following some of this on facebook. good to hear your thoughts
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:11 PM #508
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:57 AM #509
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great input... very informative, thanks for adding to this intelligent discussion with your .02 cents... way to add to the sport bro
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:07 PM #510
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:25 AM #511
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this is like high school sports competing locally only hoping to play for the real thing
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Old 02-22-2012, 04:00 PM #512
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The format seems like fun, and the organization seems pretty ambitious. If they get this to work, I think it would be preferable to the other formats, and a shot in the arm for competitive paintball AND the industry. The problems I'm seeing are -

1. Paintball is a very preference-oriented game. Whenever anyone asks about which marker/mask/pack/etc., the answer is always pretty much the same - try it if you can, it will come down to what feels best to you. I understand the desire for uniformity, but some of the equipment they insist on matching seems a little excessive -

-I'm not sure why everyone is so QQ about matching headbands or cleats, but masks are a pretty big deal. As an example, i4s are my own personal hell, because they simply do not fit me right. So I just pray I don't end up on a team that uses them?

-If the team marker is a spoolie, and we're playing unlimited semi, I'd be pissed I couldn't have my poppet. I'm not gonna buy another $400 marker (at least) so that I can match a bunch of strangers' equipment.

-Packs, especially because they involve your lower back, are extremely individual. I require a certain amount of support and protection, the rest of my team may not.

2. The draft could be both fun and obnoxious. Fun, because individual players would potentially move up the ladder faster. Obnoxious, because regional teams would mean your players could live hours apart, and practices would be quite inconvenient for some players. The pro and semi-pro teams may be able to afford to relocate a player, but the lower divisions will see a lot of players SOL, especially with mandatory practices (which in itself, isn't unreasonable - you need teamwork). Practices may not be AS important for existing teams.

3. Since this is AIMED at making tournament 'ball more spectator-friendly, a scoreboard with a timer should be without question. And since we're clearly trying to imitate some of the bigger sports like football and basketball, they would need plenty of buzzers, none of this "the warning is a courtesy" bull stuff.

4. NPL-licensed paint means that the league itself would either need to have its own manufacturing facilities, or they would have to be in very good graces with the existing companies, which seems unlikely considering the push by many companies to back a single league. And, if we're trying to make the sport more affordable for the amateur, would make no sense unless the NPL paint is extremely inexpensive. People find their own paint hookups or sale paint all the time, and with the exception of Monster Ball, the quality of paint is usually only detrimental to the player shooting it. I see this being an opportunity to actually widen the market for paint itself, because you have to buy the paint either way.

5. Somewhat more arbitrary, and less important, is that a four-man team just FEELS kinda... off. Especially, again, if we're imitating the established sports. I'm not sure why, but paintball just seems like it should have odd-numbered teams. To me.

All this said, I'm actually hoping this goes off.

Last edited by murdercrow : 02-22-2012 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 02-22-2012, 04:52 PM #513
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^ Agreed. Pants and jerseys and maybe masks and guns should be matched (in higher divisions), but everything else is excessive. Especially when you're just starting out and have no rep to speak of.

Semi is a bad idea in general. Welcome to bounceland.

Other than that, as I've said before, I like the idea. It comes down to whether they can pull it off and whether they've made the barriers to entry too high. I suspect they have.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:05 PM #514
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Sme of the rules do say for higher divisions. Maybe mask should be uniform in color, but not type. Good feedback though.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:02 AM #515
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Originally Posted by vijil View Post
^ Agreed. Pants and jerseys and maybe masks and guns should be matched (in higher divisions), but everything else is excessive. Especially when you're just starting out and have no rep to speak of.

Semi is a bad idea in general. Welcome to bounceland.

Other than that, as I've said before, I like the idea. It comes down to whether they can pull it off and whether they've made the barriers to entry too high. I suspect they have.
If you read more closely, masks and markers are specificlly what I mentioned as BEING the excessive examples - besides those and the packs, I don't really get what the fuss is about. Of all things, the one item I saw keyed-in on the most was the HEADBANDS, which frankly baffles me. And NO ONE before me seems to have been concerned about the masks, which are widely considered to be the most important item in your gearbag. Which to me, means it is the most personal, in terms of comfort and performance. And since not all mask companies offer a wide range of color options, matching even that could prove quite difficult. They would either need yet another unlikely relationship with a wide variety of manufacturers, or short of that, the only sane alternative would be no other color for masks but black, or maybe white for the "visiting" team. Seems a little complicated though, to require purchase of yet another item in the name of uniformity.

At risk of re-igniting the debate that consumed far too many pages of this thread as it is, I would like to mention that I'm an advocate of uncapped semi. I'm not particularly familiar with all the subtler points of electronic paintball markers yet, but I understand that at least one person (Chris) believes true semi doesn't exist in them. I also understand that "bounce" is supposedly to blame for this, and that most, if not all, boards have adjustable DEBOUNCE settings. So I think I'm just missing where the conflict is - standardize debounce, the end. If we can test for BPS, why is it somehow impossible to test for true semi-auto? If it IS such a hassle to check for cheating in semi, but not ramp modes, harsher penalties would deter such practices - if a game has to be stopped to check a marker, and the player is found to be cheating, their participation at the event is immediately over. It would be less attractive even trying to push the boundaries with that at stake. A second offense includes multiple game suspensions, and a third ends the season. If it's at or near the end of the season, the penalty carries over into the next season. Without contracts, this would be especially damaging to amateur players, who it may end up being easier to replace than to "ride out" the consequences.

Last edited by murdercrow : 02-23-2012 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:30 AM #516
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At risk of re-igniting the debate that consumed far too many pages of this thread as it is, I would like to mention that I'm an advocate of uncapped semi. I'm not particularly familiar with all the subtler points of electronic paintball markers yet, but I understand that at least one person (Chris) believes true semi doesn't exist in them. I also understand that "bounce" is supposedly to blame for this, and that most, if not all, boards have adjustable DEBOUNCE settings. So I think I'm just missing where the conflict is - standardize debounce, the end. If we can test for BPS, why is it somehow impossible to test for true semi-auto? If it IS such a hassle to check for cheating in semi, but not ramp modes, harsher penalties would deter such practices - if a game has to be stopped to check a marker, and the player is found to be cheating, their participation at the event is immediately over. It would be less attractive even trying to push the boundaries with that at stake. A second offense includes multiple game suspensions, and a third ends the season. If it's at or near the end of the season, the penalty carries over into the next season. Without contracts, this would be especially damaging to amateur players, who it may end up being easier to replace than to "ride out" the consequences.
ROF can be reffed while the game is on, refs use ROF reading chronos while player is shooting and give penalties if needed. Very straightforward and practical, ref does not need to make arbitrary decisions, if the machine says ROF is over the limit, thats the end of it.

You can't referee debounce this way, there is no machine that can detect that the trigger pulls are the same amount as the balls going out of barrel while game is ongoing. To detect debounce, ref needs to see the gun shooting and think "that one seems to shoot awfully fast compared to players fingers" and the take it away and then test it.

Handtesting is not very practical, some people have way faster fingers than others, so the same gun could be tested by two refs, one saying its illegal and one saying its legal. The NPPL had/has the robot, but you need to take gun to it and spend time to test it. Then the question is, is the gun still in same mode when this sort of testing starts as it was during the game?

If there is a way, some people will try to gain advantage with debounce or shooting modes if semi-auto is used. Controlling ROF and using ramping takes away the incentive to cheat, about everyone can reach the threshold for ramping to start, so you can't gain anything by fiddling with the shooting modes.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:56 AM #517
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great input... very informative, thanks for adding to this intelligent discussion with your .02 cents... way to add to the sport bro
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:40 AM #518
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1. Paintball is a very preference-oriented game.... but some of the equipment they insist on matching seems a little excessive -
-I'm not sure why everyone is so QQ about matching headbands or cleats, but masks are a pretty big deal.
-If the team marker is a spoolie, and we're playing unlimited semi, I'd be pissed I couldn't have my poppet. I'm not gonna buy another $400 marker (at least) so that I can match a bunch of strangers' equipment.
I think if you revisit your read through of the rules you will notice that the uniformity rules are not so specific as to dictate brand/model uniformity. My read of the rules was simply color uniformity. Obvious exceptions being jersey, where those by default will be brand uniform within a team in order to be matching. This is already common place.

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2. The draft could be both fun and obnoxious. Fun, because individual players would potentially move up the ladder faster. Obnoxious, because regional teams would mean your players could live hours apart, and practices would be quite inconvenient for some players.
While I think you are correct in the assumption that the players may end up more geographically spread out, where does this become a problem? At the amateur level, the majority of players would most likely be regular players at that regional venue. They have already been making the trip. Beyond that, I see it as a coach's responsibility to establish a workout and practice schedule that works with all players. Maybe they can make a list of workouts and drills that can be completed on one's own to reduce travel requirements. There is also the option of trading players who are simply incapable of making one team's specific practices.

It seems to me that there are opportunities in place that allow for plenty of creative and low cost solutions to the decentralization of rosters.


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3. Since this is AIMED at making tournament 'ball more spectator-friendly, a scoreboard with a timer should be without question. And since we're clearly trying to imitate some of the bigger sports like football and basketball, they would need plenty of buzzers, none of this "the warning is a courtesy" bull stuff.
I agree that some way to display, to the teams and spectators, the score and time is a necessity. I am withholding judgment until I know more though because I remember the original release of xball included the need for scoreboards and timers. Most fields were faced with buying both a new bunker set AND a high dollar scoreboard. If I was a field owner, I wouldn't make that purchase then, and now I really wouldn't considering the lack of profit to field owners in the tournament aspect. If NPL can come up with a cost effective solution to this issue, then I am all for it. As a side note, I noticed when I played the demo that the official had a laptop based scoreboard program with proper horns. I wonder if they are working on mobilizing that program.

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4. NPL-licensed paint means that the league itself would either need to have its own manufacturing facilities, or they would have to be in very good graces with the existing companies, which seems unlikely considering the push by many companies to back a single league. And, if we're trying to make the sport more affordable for the amateur, would make no sense unless the NPL paint is extremely inexpensive. People find their own paint hookups or sale paint all the time, and with the exception of Monster Ball, the quality of paint is usually only detrimental to the player shooting it. I see this being an opportunity to actually widen the market for paint itself, because you have to buy the paint either way.
I think the paint thing is a great idea. Smart for competition. Smart for the field owners. Smart for the league. Smart for the Industry. Within each level of play in any other sport, do you see a standardized ball? Soccer? Yes. Football? Yes. Baseball? Yes. Basketball? Yes. Hockey? Standardized Puck. Auto and motorcycle racing? Standardized tires.

I see the standardized league licensed paint as a wonderful leveler for competition. If you are only using one ball, any issue with the paintball in regards to durability becomes an issue for all teams and therefore is a non issue. Your team has just as good odds of getting a bounce as the other guy. The corollary being, when playing with the same ball, you can't blame the paint if you suck. The other team gets all the same paint issues and benefits.

For the field owners this is a no brainer. Most small field owners move less then a skid of paint a week. Their individual buying power within the industry is insignificant and as such they become "price takers." Much like the issue in regards to certain league's new bunkers, individual field owners are forced to accept whatever price manufacturers want them to pay for paint(and many times a ball count requirement per tier) and they can either take the price or attempt to find a different manufacturer. Being part of a league of field owners magnifies each owner's buying power and brings the manufacturers to the table to actually negotiate a proper ball quality and price. For the players, this means the field can offer a reasonably priced ball of good quality and still make enough money on the paint sales to keep the lights on and the door open.

And that last portion is most critical. For paintball to survive as a competitive sport, the bottom level of the commercial chain must be able to make money. If a field can't make money off competitive paintball, Why would they spend significant amounts of time and money on it? Right now all that competition money is going to the select few who have stakes in the big circus acts. What incentive do field owners have to support that sort of cash flow when they are not making a reasonable share? I think NPL hit the nail on the head by providing a way for local level venues to recoup more of the competitive cash flow this way and actually find a method of making money on the competition side.

League wise, this is a massive branding opportunity and one of the best ways to keep on the pulse of the league. Paint sales are an excellent indicator of health of a specific market and if the league knows that number, it can better utilize it's limited resources to be responsive to changes in market conditions. Plus if they make something like a dollar or five dollars a box, it is an excellent revenue stream that does not impose a significant up front barrier to entry and regular competition.

Industry wise, it is about assurances. If you knew that you were going to go to one point of contact and could lock in a contract to supply paint for more then a dozen venues for a year or two, would you? Why wouldn't you? Beyond that, why wouldn't you, as an industry member, want to reduce your refrigerated truck miles by utilizing the distribution system you already have in place to supply the plethora of teams with their competition paint? One of the biggest complaints I heard in the whole merger debate was that industry was tired of the expensive travel to the circuses. Would you negotiate to make your ball the only ball used in competition AND reduce your travel expenditures? This makes dollars and sense to me.

As it is, it seems that current league and industry are realizing this with exclusive vendor contracts. This is simply the next progression that allows manufacturers the opportunity to eliminate the event truck expenses and better utilize their current distribution tools.

I see the paint as a win win situation. Players get a leveling effect and fields that can stay open. Fields see an immediate return in magnified buying power and margins. League generates a branding opportunity and small but perpetual revenue stream. Industry gets to consolidate expenditures and improve local market presence.

I would like to touch on the discussion in regards to inexpensive paint.
There will always be an inexpensive paint supply somewhere in most markets.
Retail price competition has not significantly changed actual spending patterns of paintball consumers in the past twenty years.(industry average between $40 and $60 dollars per player per day expenditure)
Undercutting local venue's paint sales by sourcing from the cheap price alternative only makes your local venue less capable of staying in business.
Especially in small markets, this kind of fracturing of the buying power makes it so legitimate venues are less able to negotiate with manufactures for better pricing and ball count contracts.
Without that income from competition players, what incentive does a field owner have to buy bunkers, invest in field improvements, buy scoreboards, buy turf... expend money they aren't making on competition specific equipment and improvements ...??????

I won't go so far as to naively suggest all non venue paint sales should stop. They won't. They are a factor of economics. I simply want all you who cry out for the mythical "cheap ball" to consider the actualities of what a cheap ball has been doing for competitive paintball.

PS if a venue has a larger volume of paint sales, they don't have to charge as much per case to cover their expenses AND if they charge the right amount, can actually afford to invest in the sport we love. This is the whole "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" concept.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:01 AM #519
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Well said. Thanks for good input. Our field is very excited about running this. I plan on cheap tvs in the pits from the laptop software. Unfortunately score boards are ridiculous price. The only reason this would not succeed is if the existing players is not willing to try the format. There are many players not playing other leagues because they don't have time or money for them. This is a good choice for those.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:42 PM #520
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...If there is a way, some people will try to gain advantage with debounce or shooting modes if semi-auto is used. Controlling ROF and using ramping takes away the incentive to cheat, about everyone can reach the threshold for ramping to start, so you can't gain anything by fiddling with the shooting modes.
Okay, again, because I'm not super savvy with the tech, logistics aside, IF we could, in an ideal world, implement and enforce the harsher penalties for TRUE semi, would that not be preferable to the current approach of "Well, it's not cheating if we legalize it?" Because that to me, is what ramping is - a form of cheating that, because of the difficulty in eliminating it, has instead been adopted as the standard.

I suppose one way to combat this would be to standardize the marker - everyone uses the same marker, with the same settings. You buy the marker from the NPL (with financing assistance in the form of payments or loans or something?), the boards can only be replaced with proprietary NPL products, everyone uses the same barrel (kit?), etc... this actually seems closer to a level playing field than anything else. Or, the team owns the markers, the player pays nominal "leasing" fees yearly, and then lease a marker from the next team they're on if traded. Get a marker company on board with this, they'd probably be delighted to have a fixed market share. "The Official Marker of the National Paintball League." They're all black, or teams can order them in team colors.

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I think if you revisit your read through of the rules you will notice that the uniformity rules are not so specific as to dictate brand/model uniformity.
"Mask Uniform in Color and Design" I read as such. But again, as I pointed out in my subsequent post, even color-matching may not be feasible. As for the rest, you're right though - the amateur level doesn't even require matching colors for markers. Guess I got a little excited. Also, see my above idea about markers.



Quote:
While I think you are correct in the assumption that the players may end up more geographically spread out, where does this become a problem? At the amateur level, the majority of players would most likely be regular players at that regional venue. They have already been making the trip. Beyond that, I see it as a coach's responsibility to establish a workout and practice schedule that works with all players. Maybe they can make a list of workouts and drills that can be completed on one's own to reduce travel requirements. There is also the option of trading players who are simply incapable of making one team's specific practices.

It seems to me that there are opportunities in place that allow for plenty of creative and low cost solutions to the decentralization of rosters.

The "region" may include a multiple-state area. Just because I can afford a trip to Salt Lake for a single combine or the occasional walk-on, doesn't mean I can do that on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. I agree that a little creativity may solve the issue though - I wasn't totally opposed to the idea, I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.

Quote:
I agree that some way to display, to the teams and spectators, the score and time is a necessity. I am withholding judgment until I know more though because I remember the original release of xball included the need for scoreboards and timers. Most fields were faced with buying both a new bunker set AND a high dollar scoreboard. If I was a field owner, I wouldn't make that purchase then, and now I really wouldn't considering the lack of profit to field owners in the tournament aspect. If NPL can come up with a cost effective solution to this issue, then I am all for it. As a side note, I noticed when I played the demo that the official had a laptop based scoreboard program with proper horns. I wonder if they are working on mobilizing that program.
Simplest solution I can think of is, because the NPL requires them, they supply them to the venue. Laptop based programs, with projectors and speakers, etc, seems another viable option.

Quote:
...I see the standardized league licensed paint as a wonderful leveler for competition. If you are only using one ball, any issue with the paintball in regards to durability becomes an issue for all teams and therefore is a non issue...
I'm not disagreeing, I'm just trying to think it through. IF the NPL COULD make their own paint, and then sell it to the venue, who in turn sells it to the players, it would be GREAT, and to me at least, preferable to any other paint avenue. I'm just not sure the capital would be available to do so - I can't imagine outright building a facility (hopefully on American soil?) is cheap, but if it could be done, to me, it would be a goddamned divine intervention. Beyond owning their own facility, as I said, I see them having a hard time sub-contracting to an existing company. As we've seen in the Valken/PSP debacle, leagues AND companies are moving AWAY from widening their supply, at least in competitive 'ball. If they COULD get, say Nelson, to be the exclusive manufacturer of their standard paint, it would be almost as good as making their own. Short of that, the only viable option *I* can imagine would be to let the venue continue selling their own paint, as I find it unlikely many current manufacturers would be willing to adjust to meet yet another set of standards. I'd go so far as to say that most players are willing to concede that "you get what you pay for." If a player/team opts for cheap paint, they're aware of the risks, and as such cannot blame anyone but themselves if they start having issues.

Quote:
I won't go so far as to naively suggest all non venue paint sales should stop. They won't. They are a factor of economics. I simply want all you who cry out for the mythical "cheap ball" to consider the actualities of what a cheap ball has been doing for competitive paintball.

PS if a venue has a larger volume of paint sales, they don't have to charge as much per case to cover their expenses AND if they charge the right amount, can actually afford to invest in the sport we love. This is the whole "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" concept.
I may be one of the few people who is, if not content with paint prices, certainly comfortable with them. I played my first tournaments in 2011, and was pleasantly surprised to buy my paint at the prices I did. Even the WCPS, an organized league, had paint at $55, $65, and $75 a case, when the last I'd heard from competitive paintball was at least $110 a case at events. Granted, at that particular event I bought two cases of the low-grade which seemed to be very problematic that day, but that may be as much my fault, or the weather's fault, as the supplier's, and as such I don't hold a grudge.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:37 PM #521
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The only reason this would not succeed is if the existing players is not willing to try the format.
Bingo!

I think that the biggest resistance will be those people who don't want to test their skills outside their own comfort zone of the teammates they came up around.

While understandable, this is entirely counter intuitive to every concept of sport if you base sport on the idea of challenges and success. If people only want to play on their team because they are afraid they will get beat playing for another team, or, dare I say, BE JUDGED , lol then I doubt those are the people that competitive paintball should be betting on to carry us to greater heights.

Murdercrow- I see what you mean about the multi-state region paradox. Not knowing the inner workings of the league, I can only venture to guess that the structure they advertise seems welcoming to the inclusion of new field owners when there is a market demand for the league in that area. In other words, get enough players asking for it and you may get a new region that is more convenient. Beyond that, I totally know your pain. Living in Reno has left me with some tough choices about what leagues/formats I have played due to proximity. I hope this league can secure enough regions to give a good representation and opportunity to all players that want to play.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:22 AM #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murdercrow View Post
Okay, again, because I'm not super savvy with the tech, logistics aside, IF we could, in an ideal world, implement and enforce the harsher penalties for TRUE semi, would that not be preferable to the current approach of "Well, it's not cheating if we legalize it?" Because that to me, is what ramping is - a form of cheating that, because of the difficulty in eliminating it, has instead been adopted as the standard.
In this ideal world, why would you need penalties? Players would eliminate themselves when hit .
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Old 02-24-2012, 02:40 AM #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atshii View Post
In this ideal world, why would you need penalties? Players would eliminate themselves when hit .
And snide posts that don't contribute to the discussion would delete themselves.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:33 AM #524
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In this ideal world, why would you need penalties? Players would eliminate themselves when hit .
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpanther View Post
And snide posts that don't contribute to the discussion would delete themselves.
I think he was just extending the logic to show that is might be flawed...? Would your response be considered snide?

Not to take sides here... haven't tried the format... but some of the longer posts in this thread seem to be from players that did not go through the last 10 years or so of tournament paintball progression, and may not understand some the decisions and reasoning behind why we ended up with the current formats and rules. Not saying what is done today is "right", or there isn't a better way... just that is seems like the arguments used indicate a lack of historical insight and experience.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:17 PM #525
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I've blatantly admitted I haven't seen all that. But, as this new league seems geared at attracting NEW players, I think that's kind of the point - to appeal to the perspective of the prospective new tournament player. Catering to you old guns would just create another PSP/NPPL. These guys have a chance to start fresh.

An ideal world still includes free will - so no, there would still be the choice to cheat. =P
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