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Old 01-24-2012, 01:08 PM #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
The biggest one is a paint limit leads to greater cost savings and more predictable costs. Even at 5 BPS, you can still dump a lot more paint per game than at hopperball or even hopper+1 pod.

Another is mechanics. I know Nick is all worried about losing "laning" from the game, but I don't see a whole lot of value in players being able to just pick a direction and keep shooting in that direction to either deny movemetn or hoping a player will run through it. With limited paint, you move the bunkers further apart, and instead of having to keep a stream of paint going through a small gap on the field to keep a player from advancing, you can just keep an eye on a larger gap and if a player goes to make the move, shoot them on the way into their bunker. Same effect, a lot less paint used.

Another problem with 5 or 6 bps is snap shooting - you can't snap shoot more than one ball. With limited paint, you can snap shoot at 5 bps, but get your bps into snaps of 3 balls that take far less than 6/10ths of a second.

Limited paint also allows for new strategy elements. If I say your team gets their hoppers plus 5 pods, you can decide how to allocate those pods amongst your players, and effectively give one player more "shooting power" than another. That's not an option with 6 bps across the board.

A low bps cap also requires electronic markers. When it's up at 12.5 or 15 bps, no one cares if i play with my mag. If it's down at 6 or 5, my mag becomes illegal or I can outshoot the ROF cap.

A bps cap also requires equipment to enforce - you need a device that can measure ROF, ideally in in-game circumstances. Anyone can count how many pods a team brings on the field with their eyes and, if the ref is especially dense, fingers.

I really don't see any advantages to low ROF cap over a straight paint limit. Limited paint is simple and effective, ROF cap not so much.


- Chris
Have you successfully implemented your "Tactical" format yet, even outside of the PSP? I would LOVE to see a demo of this in person. I feel like people need to give it a chance. It adds another layer of strategy just by distributing the paint.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:28 PM #296
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Originally Posted by shock2k3 View Post
stop trying to be right and just take what I am telling you as insight to why %100 of people dont want ramping.
100% of people don't want ramping? I would have thought that every team playing PSP instead of NPPL or regional semi-auto leagues is a testament to how they feel about ramping vs semi.
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Originally Posted by shock2k3 View Post
all I am trying to do is explain how I/we feel. take it in and try and listen good, any customer is a good one
Are you sure about the we part?

Semi is simply not practical to enforce. Its usefulness ends with recball and rookie 3-man events.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:32 PM #297
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Even if TRUE semi can't be enforced, that's what the NPL will be using for the 2012 season. Perhaps in future seasons we will see it change to ramping.

Please, enough OT in here. It's just clutter.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:54 PM #298
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Would such a limit on paint not slow down the game dramatically? Sure at first you may think it speeds up the game as people will be forced to be more aggressive as they run out of paint. But, what happens if one team just sits and waits for the only team to advance into a an angle with a clear shot?

I also feel as if this would eliminate snapshooting. It's already easy enough to see a paintball coming and move. People typically get hit when they are leaning as a paintball is about to hit, not giving them time. With such a limit on paint, you can't afford to do this.

Though, even if I am correct about this, new strategies would appear, of course.
No less paint in the air equals more movement. Teams already just sit back and wait for teams to advance. Snapshooting becomes more important when you have less paint because you can't come out and shoot streams of paint all day.

The most exciting part of paintball for spectators is watching someone make a move and shoot someone out. Watching two people sit back and shoot 6-7 pods at each other from bunkers across the field until one finally stands up and walks out is boring. You can't tell when they got hit, and it makes it harder for anyone to see skill.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:07 PM #299
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Even if TRUE semi can't be enforced, that's what the NPL will be using for the 2012 season. Perhaps in future seasons we will see it change to ramping.
Why was a rule that can't be enforced selected? Does the league plan on using any other rules that won't be enforced?

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Old 01-24-2012, 02:13 PM #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl

Why was a rule that can't be enforced selected? Does the league plan on using any other rules that won't be enforced?

- Chris
I'm not involved in any of that, I just play.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:28 PM #301
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Why was a rule that can't be enforced selected? Does the league plan on using any other rules that won't be enforced?

- Chris
because ramping is stupied and has hurt the sport.
you dont tell the "public" as in people who have no clue about paintball, about ramping. It confuses and scares them away from playing.

#1 - I play paintball, wanna play? buy a gun!

Your way - I play paintball, the guns shoot 13 bps and everybody can do it, its easy. buy a gun!

what is more simple.
simplicity = perfection.

as iv said before if ramping started up around 10bps and had a cap it would make more sense. yet the way it is set up is a SCAM! as you already said you dont even play in ramping you just cheat using semi. because it saves paint.

people dont you see.
.and these are the people pushing the sport..
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:37 PM #302
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Originally Posted by Kaolinite View Post
because ramping is stupied and has hurt the sport.
you dont tell the "public" as in people who have no clue about paintball, about ramping. It confuses and scares them away from playing.

#1 - I play paintball, wanna play? buy a gun!

Your way - I play paintball, the guns shoot 13 bps and everybody can do it, its easy. buy a gun!

what is more simple.
simplicity = perfection.

as iv said before if ramping started up around 10bps and had a cap it would make more sense. yet the way it is set up is a SCAM! as you already said you dont even play in ramping you just cheat using semi. because it saves paint.

people dont you see.
.and these are the people pushing the sport..
Be careful, Chris is gonna pull his, I been doing this a long time and your ignorant speach
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:42 PM #303
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Originally Posted by Kaolinite View Post
simplicity = perfection.
I'm guessing you would be all for abandoning electronic markers altogether than, correct? Simplicity.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:45 PM #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMoK View Post

I also feel as if this would eliminate snapshooting. It's already easy enough to see a paintball coming and move. People typically get hit when they are leaning as a paintball is about to hit, not giving them time. With such a limit on paint, you can't afford to do this.
ask one of us pumpers if it would eliminate snap shooting. that is our game regardless of who or what we are up against. if anything, it would make snap shooting MORE important.
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:05 PM #305
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I'm guessing you would be all for abandoning electronic markers altogether than, correct? Simplicity.
honestly, Yes. We all know that wont happen. So we set rules and limits to control the technology like we see today. What point are your trying to make?
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:15 PM #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaolinite View Post
because ramping is stupied and has hurt the sport.
you dont tell the "public" as in people who have no clue about paintball, about ramping. It confuses and scares them away from playing.

#1 - I play paintball, wanna play? buy a gun!

Your way - I play paintball, the guns shoot 13 bps and everybody can do it, its easy. buy a gun!

what is more simple.
simplicity = perfection.

as iv said before if ramping started up around 10bps and had a cap it would make more sense. yet the way it is set up is a SCAM! as you already said you dont even play in ramping you just cheat using semi. because it saves paint.

people dont you see.
.and these are the people pushing the sport..

Uh, ok, but if we accept that all that's true...

...what does that have to do with a semi-auto rule?

Guns at tournaments with "semi-auto" rules shoot FASTER than guns at tournaments with ramping rules. So if the problem is too much paint being shot, the worst rule possible is unlimited paint uncapped semi-auto.


Besides, you can't get rid of ramping with tournament rules, because all electronic guns ramp. The only way to get rid of ramping is get rid of electronic guns.


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Old 01-24-2012, 04:35 PM #307
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post

Guns at tournaments with "semi-auto" rules shoot FASTER than guns at tournaments with ramping rules.
- Chris
They shoot faster in spurts.. not consistently....


Since you can run and gun left handed shooting 15bps in true semi auto lets do some quick math...

12.5 bps for 10 seconds = 125 balls shot
15 bps for 4 seconds + 5 bps for 3 seconds + 7 bps for 3 seconds =
60 + 15 + 21 = 96 balls shot...
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:36 PM #308
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Uh, ok, but if we accept that all that's true...

...what does that have to do with a semi-auto rule?

Guns at tournaments with "semi-auto" rules shoot FASTER than guns at tournaments with ramping rules. So if the problem is too much paint being shot, the worst rule possible is unlimited paint uncapped semi-auto.


Besides, you can't get rid of ramping with tournament rules, because all electronic guns ramp. The only way to get rid of ramping is get rid of electronic guns.


- Chris
THIS IS WHY A CAP HAS BEEN PUT IN PLACE! 15bps ..... WOW! ( I also support limited paint/paint cap if you took any consideration to what iv said in this thread you would knbow that, but you dont give any credit to anyone elses opinion but your own)

you also choose not to answer my question about why ramping starts up so early?....im putting you on the spot ..... tick tock everybody wants to know.

edit: we cant go back in time. everything has electronics in it now. If it was a realistic idea it would have been done, but we all know it is not. It is stupied and unrealist just asking the question. You know this.....

and as iv said before these are the people pushing the sport ..... THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT MONEY! makes me sick no prizes in the NCPA wonder why?
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:42 PM #309
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Originally Posted by Kaolinite View Post
THIS IS WHY A CAP HAS BEEN PUT IN PLACE! 15bps ..... WOW! ( I also support limited paint if you took any consideration to what iv said in this thread but you dont give any credit to anyone elses opinion but your own)

you also choose not to answer my question about why ramping stars up so early?....im putting you on the spot ..... tick tock everybody wants to know.
I would be ok with ramping after you reach 10 bps after 8 consecutive shots since last reset.. right now its either 1bps or 12.5.. This would be a start, you can still keep ramping for now..

A big problem with ramping for me right now is i pull 9 bps i get 12.5 when i slow to 4.5 bps, i still get 12.5, why?

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Old 01-24-2012, 04:51 PM #310
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Originally Posted by pbdude911 View Post
They shoot faster in spurts.. not consistently....


Since you can run and gun left handed shooting 15bps in true semi auto lets do some quick math...
I never said I could do it in true semi-auto. I said I could do it in any semi-auto tournament.

Quote:
12.5 bps for 10 seconds = 125 balls shot
15 bps for 4 seconds + 5 bps for 3 seconds + 7 bps for 3 seconds =
60 + 15 + 21 = 96 balls shot...
That's a fantasy. I'll be shooting 15 bps the whole time. If it's uncapped semi-auto I'll be shooting even faster.

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Originally Posted by Kaolinite View Post
THIS IS WHY A CAP HAS BEEN PUT IN PLACE! 15bps ..... WOW!
Right, so you have guns in ramping mode ramping up to 12.5 bps vs. guns in "semi-auto" mode ramping up to 15 bps.

What, other than 2.5 bps, is the difference?

Are you seriously trying to say that new players are affected by whether the paintballs coming at them at 12.5-15 bps are from a gun set to semi-auto mode or ramping mode?

"Goddamnit, that's too much paint getting shot at me, I quit!"

"But I was shooting that much paint at you with a SEMI-AUTO gun!"

"Oh, ok then, I'll stay!"

I mean, really?

Quote:
you also choose not to answer my question about why ramping stars up so early?....im putting you on the spot ..... tick tock everybody wants to know.
What do you mean by early? Do you mean why is ramping allowed after 3 shots? For the same reason the rules are ramping to begin with: The only thing you can enforce is the rate of fire. Enforcing one-shot-per-pull is impossible.


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Old 01-24-2012, 05:20 PM #311
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What, other than 2.5 bps, is the difference?
the diffrence is anybody with mittens on can shoot that much paint. why?

Are you seriously trying to say that new players are affected by whether the paintballs coming at them at 12.5-15 bps are from a gun set to semi-auto mode or ramping mode?

yes. semi auto = they can shoot that fast. Ramping = everybody shoots that fast, bad hand or good hand @ 12.5 bps.... why? why take away from a skill from the game because it cant be policed? so we set a cap to help control it... as a player you risk this if you choose to cheat.you risk it to your team same thing if a player risks cheating in ramping....

so once again I ask what benifit does ramping bring to the sport?


What do you mean by early? Do you mean why is ramping allowed after 3 shots? For the same reason the rules are ramping to begin with: The only thing you can enforce is the rate of fire. Enforcing one-shot-per-pull is impossible.
WHY IS IT SO LOW? cant we raise this? WHY CANT WE RAISE THIS? why have you not sugested this if its in the best intrest of the players?????

you have been hearing it for years. You have also run paintball into the ground during those years.

You say now, you promote limited paint, why did you not promote this before?
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:26 PM #312
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the point of view from a beginner is completely different than a point of view of a tourny player

the beginner sees a constant, unstoppable, unbeatable stream of paint rocking their bunker, they are affraid to fight back

with ramping, its easier to pin your opponent
with a semi, your stream is going to be inconsistent, its going to spurt, you are going to have to try to keep it fast

should semi have a cap... no, if you work on your bps and accuracy, and can hold it, sweet, congrats, you EARNED IT

should ramping be in the sport? i dont believe so, it only intimdates new players, if they come back after they get introduced to the sport, it makes some kid drop $500 on a etek so he can ramp too, he never learns how to shoot a lane with semi this kid will end up putting a lane in the back of a guys head because he couldnt control it. the kid wanted to be competitive, now he looks like a dick, now the other guy is pissed, and there in lies the problem (this happened locally last month)

i would love to see this league survive
i would love to see paintball grow
i would love to see TRUE semi back in the game, no ramping, no cheater mode, just 1 shot per pull end of story.

check it with a radar gun
check it by checking a players marker after the round
check it by using TOURNY LOCKS again (remember the old spyder that had the jumper on it to lock it?! brilliant!)

penalize heavily for it, it will be discouraged and with manufacturers help, it could be eliminated
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:30 PM #313
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A big problem with ramping for me right now is i pull 9 bps i get 12.5 when i slow to 4.5 bps, i still get 12.5, why?
exactly! why?? everyone knows this is not needed. Its a waste of paint. He said himself he doesnt use ramping to control paint use. Yet still promotes ramping? well his version at 3 pulls = 12.5bps is killing paintball.

He knows it, he see's it and now promotes limited paint.... after 5 years why? why change? why not change sooner?
.....like I keep saying.... think hard about this these are the people running the sport
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:38 PM #314
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Originally Posted by super_stanchy View Post
the point of view from a beginner is completely different than a point of view of a tourny player

the beginner sees a constant, unstoppable, unbeatable stream of paint rocking their bunker, they are affraid to fight back

with ramping, its easier to pin your opponent
with a semi, your stream is going to be inconsistent, its going to spurt, you are going to have to try to keep it fast

should semi have a cap... no, if you work on your bps and accuracy, and can hold it, sweet, congrats, you EARNED IT

should ramping be in the sport? i dont believe so, it only intimdates new players, if they come back after they get introduced to the sport, it makes some kid drop $500 on a etek so he can ramp too, he never learns how to shoot a lane with semi this kid will end up putting a lane in the back of a guys head because he couldnt control it. the kid wanted to be competitive, now he looks like a dick, now the other guy is pissed, and there in lies the problem (this happened locally last month)

i would love to see this league survive
i would love to see paintball grow
i would love to see TRUE semi back in the game, no ramping, no cheater mode, just 1 shot per pull end of story.

check it with a radar gun
check it by checking a players marker after the round
check it by using TOURNY LOCKS again (remember the old spyder that had the jumper on it to lock it?! brilliant!)

penalize heavily for it, it will be discouraged and with manufacturers help, it could be eliminated
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:47 PM #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super_stanchy View Post
the point of view from a beginner is completely different than a point of view of a tourny player

the beginner sees a constant, unstoppable, unbeatable stream of paint rocking their bunker, they are affraid to fight back

with ramping, its easier to pin your opponent
with a semi, your stream is going to be inconsistent, its going to spurt, you are going to have to try to keep it fast

should semi have a cap... no, if you work on your bps and accuracy, and can hold it, sweet, congrats, you EARNED IT

should ramping be in the sport? i dont believe so, it only intimdates new players, if they come back after they get introduced to the sport, it makes some kid drop $500 on a etek so he can ramp too, he never learns how to shoot a lane with semi this kid will end up putting a lane in the back of a guys head because he couldnt control it. the kid wanted to be competitive, now he looks like a dick, now the other guy is pissed, and there in lies the problem (this happened locally last month)

i would love to see this league survive
i would love to see paintball grow
i would love to see TRUE semi back in the game, no ramping, no cheater mode, just 1 shot per pull end of story.

check it with a radar gun
check it by checking a players marker after the round
check it by using TOURNY LOCKS again (remember the old spyder that had the jumper on it to lock it?! brilliant!)

penalize heavily for it, it will be discouraged and with manufacturers help, it could be eliminated
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