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Old 01-23-2012, 06:43 PM #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
At first no, any change in paintball always meets a lot of resistance, we are a conservative bunch, for supposedly being a fringe sport

However, once people realise it does not change the game play significantly, only the expenditure, and that it puts more emphasis on skills than what we have currently, I believe it will be welcomed.

When we went from 15 to 10 BPS in Europe, there was outrage and doomsday prophecies about killing the sport as we knew it..... and in reality, nothing much happened, except for paint usage dropping per game.

My biggest concern about Chris' proposal, is that it will change the nature of the game significantly, and I personally do not believe it is flawed, apart from the ROF.
6 bps is too low and will never be accepted here in the U.S. We couldn't even convince the lowest division to try 8bps. Not to mention a lot of guns don't even go that low. I had a shocker once that wouldn't do under 13.3 and had to buy a new board for it We Americans like shooting paint. If you could convince people to shoot 11.5, consider it a win.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:54 PM #296
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Originally Posted by WillyW0nka View Post
6 bps is too low and will never be accepted here in the U.S. We couldn't even convince the lowest division to try 8bps. Not to mention a lot of guns don't even go that low. I had a shocker once that wouldn't do under 13.3 and had to buy a new board for it We Americans like shooting paint. If you could convince people to shoot 11.5, consider it a win.
Everyone likes shooting paint (me included... I personally miss 15 BPS... but that is not the issue in this debate ) that's what I have been saying all along

However, if they have no other option, if the ROF cap is the same across the board, all divisions, they have no choice.

I'm old enough to have played arena style ball with mechanical markers, and those rarely got above 6 BPS.... and I do not think people had less fun then or - for that matter - took the game less seriously, at high level.

The only way to create a unified format, that will also allow entry level players to purchase gear at an affordable price, and still compete, and not struggle for money for paint, is a severely limited ROF..... at least that is my oppinion
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:01 PM #297
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Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
- by your definition of semi auto that is

If I was to say that ANY movement of the gun and or trigger, relative to the trigger finger, constitutes a trigger pull, that would be different

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding your point about semi not really being semi, because you are being a little obtuse about it

So, in fairness, most people in the NPPL ARE shooting semi auto, just not the way you choose to define it
You can't have it both ways - if it's a skill, then the paintballs must leave the gun as a result of some action/talent on the part of the player, and "any movement of the gun or trigger" isn't semi-auto.

If semi-auto includes any movement of the gun or trigger, then it's not a skill.

No matter how you slice it, there is absolutely no skill involved in shooting paintballs on a tournament field where electronic guns are permitted. (Well, you can certainly set up your gun to demand skill to shoot fast, but no one else will.)


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Old 01-23-2012, 07:03 PM #298
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I agree with Nick that there should be a unified format. I don't think there's any reason to raise the paint cap as you go up divisions - the paint doesn't get more affordable just because you're D3.

Under my system, the paint limit is the limit, and I don't really care about firing mode. If the limit is low enough, people won't want to ramp to any significant degree anyway because it'll waste precious paint.

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Old 01-23-2012, 07:06 PM #299
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Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
However, if they have no other option, if the ROF cap is the same across the board, all divisions, they have no choice.
That my fancy European friend is an incredibly dangerous assumption. I've never known tournament paintball players to be "loyal" by nature, so if one league takes something away they want and a rival league offers it...abandon ship!
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:15 PM #300
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You can't have it both ways - if it's a skill, then the paintballs must leave the gun as a result of some action/talent on the part of the player, and "any movement of the gun or trigger" isn't semi-auto.

If semi-auto includes any movement of the gun or trigger, then it's not a skill.

No matter how you slice it, there is absolutely no skill involved in shooting paintballs on a tournament field where electronic guns are permitted. (Well, you can certainly set up your gun to demand skill to shoot fast, but no one else will.)


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I never said it was a skill, but that is probably because I was always a slow trigger personally
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:16 PM #301
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Originally Posted by WillyW0nka View Post
That my fancy European friend is an incredibly dangerous assumption. I've never known tournament paintball players to be "loyal" by nature, so if one league takes something away they want and a rival league offers it...abandon ship!
I totally agree, which is why a unified format would need the support of all the major leagues, and all the manufacturers

Btw, what makes me "fancy"?
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:17 PM #302
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Please don't put an extreme limit on the NCPA. As hard as it is to afford traveling and playing while in college, changing the game this quickly is not the way.
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:23 PM #303
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Please don't put an extreme limit on the NCPA. As hard as it is to afford traveling and playing while in college, changing the game this quickly is not the way.
Nothing is going to change quickly dude..... and definitely not until the NPPL and PSP merge, which is at least 10 months off.

Raehl would be crazy to change NCPA, unless he had the (then) only major league onboard with the format.

Right now, we are just debating it conceptually.

Correct me if I am wrong here Chris?
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:46 PM #304
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Once we get to that point, we can start to compare ourselves to other sports.... meanwhile, what we really are, is a little corner of war enacters, that have evolved into a sport, while leaving the rest of the enacters behind.... still playing war or star trek, or whatever, at their local scenario based field.
No body is being left behind. It's a choice. People tend to choose what they feel has more value for them (value in this case being defined as cost versus fun or entertainment). If you are suggesting that recreational fields change over and offer competitive type play to everyone, with no option for recreational scenario play, then yes, tournament play would increase greatly. Paintball participation overall would probably not increase though and would most likely decrease immensely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
The only way to create a unified format, that will also allow entry level players to purchase gear at an affordable price, and still compete, and not struggle for money for paint, is a severely limited ROF..... at least that is my oppinion
Your opinion is noted, but I think limited paint also meets your criteria.
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:08 PM #305
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So....


3 pods?
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:14 PM #306
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Btw, what makes me "fancy"?
Your high average number of smiley faces used in each of your posts
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:29 PM #307
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
No body is being left behind. It's a choice. People tend to choose what they feel has more value for them (value in this case being defined as cost versus fun or entertainment). If you are suggesting that recreational fields change over and offer competitive type play to everyone, with no option for recreational scenario play, then yes, tournament play would increase greatly. Paintball participation overall would probably not increase though and would most likely decrease immensely.
.
People are left behind, because they are not exposed to the tournament style game, and in many areas, have no access to it.

So, we a missing a lot of potential converts, who have no idea paintball can be a real sport... or even if they do, have no access to playing it.

I am not advocating choosing one over the other, that choice is personal, and I have the greatest respect for those that prefer scenario style game.

However, the sport of paintball, is missing new recruits daily, because our current style of game, is not viable for most field owners, in most markets.
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:30 PM #308
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Originally Posted by WillyW0nka View Post
Your high average number of smiley faces used in each of your posts
Didn't know that was "fancy" - I rather thought it helped convey the tone of a written message, that might otherwise be construed as confrontational.
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:34 PM #309
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Didn't know that was "fancy" - I rather thought it helped convey the tone of a written message, that might otherwise be construed as confrontational.
I think we have a different definition of fancy haha.
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:50 PM #310
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People are left behind, because they are not exposed to the tournament style game, and in many areas, have no access to it.

So, we a missing a lot of potential converts, who have no idea paintball can be a real sport... or even if they do, have no access to playing it.

I am not advocating choosing one over the other, that choice is personal, and I have the greatest respect for those that prefer scenario style game.

However, the sport of paintball, is missing new recruits daily, because our current style of game, is not viable for most field owners, in most markets.
OK, I'll agree with that. And honestly, being a field owner who has chosen to concentrate solely on recreational wood/scenario type play, I would most likely have continued offering competitive type play (was starting to get into it our first year in business) if competitive play, at least at the lower levels, was a little more mellow and more affordable for players. But I could see that competitive paintball was a poor business model as its customer base were people who were being required to spend all their income on paintball, making them impoverished. Poor customers are rarely great customers, from a business perspective. That and the combination of having a bunch of barnyard cocks strutting around, thinking they were going to be the next pro, was not what I envisioned a going concern paintball business to be.
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:02 PM #311
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OK, I'll agree with that. And honestly, being a field owner who has chosen to concentrate solely on recreational wood/scenario type play, I would most likely have continued offering competitive type play (was starting to get into it our first year in business) if competitive play, at least at the lower levels, was a little more mellow and more affordable for players. But I could see that competitive paintball was a poor business model as its customer base were people who were being required to spend all their income on paintball, making them impoverished. Poor customers are rarely great customers, from a business perspective. That and the combination of having a bunch of barnyard cocks strutting around, thinking they were going to be the next pro, was not what I envisioned a going concern paintball business to be.
And that my friend, is exactly why I want a format which is the same top to bottom, and affordable at all levels.

If you can offer "the offical" format to your field customers, and that format even allows them to take up paintball as a sport, relatively cheap, when you have a business model that works, at local level too.

Yes, per customer, there is no doubt you will earn less, up front, because they will be shooting more in a tournament setting, which means you have to drop the price of paint there (if your average customer shoots 500 balls in a scenario setting, they will shoot 1.000 in a tournament setting... and they still only have the same money to spend).

But, getting them to come back more often, and selling them their first set of gear, more than makes up for that price drop IMHO.

Also, in a tournament setting, you turn over groups much faster on your busy days, because it is smaller, faster and people wear out much sooner, because is is more physically demanding.

Not to mention that you will be marketing what is essentially a brand new product, in your local market, so for the first years, you will get a lot of old customers giving your field another go, to try "this new thing".

- oh, and doubling your paint volume doesn't exactly increase your prices with your supplier
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:37 PM #312
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if you want to talk low paint consumption business... ask horizon how he modeled his place. more family fun and at the lower level, guess what..? keeps them coming back at a suprising cost per bag. they pay roughly the same to shoot 500 paintballs and have more fun in a .. forgive me.. A-hole free atmosphere.

if we had limited paint people that can shoot fast or use ramping would be seen as 'un-cool' for using 5+pods a game. the pros only play hopper ball, why do you need 5 pods to win? its like when ramping first came out, you were a cheater. Or when they started using semi guns? not needed, everyone *****ed.

actually any change in anything? everyone *****ed.. true story

this was the ONE point that pbdude or whatever had. its a 'top down' sorta thing. whatever the pros do is what the d3 to d1 teams are practicing. these are the home town hero's, the rec players and local teams follow them and want to be like them (and the pro's). then every one at the field is shooting 12.5 because its the 'new' thing.. not only does it turn away new customers it creates a gap into tourney paintball. why have a gap? why make it difficult?

and chris, I know you will never agree, you know it is a skill and harder to shoot 15 while doing atheletic things or off handed. you know you cant shoot 15 lefty running and gunning while loading. you cant. ever. in psp you can, not in my league.

I atleast can see the down fall in semi, I understand your side, you however cannot understand that other peoples opinion is where the money is at.

one thing we agree on is that 'semi' or ramping, it wont matter with only a hopper full of paint.
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:47 PM #313
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I would prefer semi since it is much more difficult to do. It is more difficult chris. it is. more difficult. semi. harder than ramping. not as easy. it is easier to pull the trigger 1x a second than at least over 10 to get to our cap. its more difficult while loading, running, diving, sliding... when is the last time you saw a pro serve tea? go to nppl, you will see it because not everyone can shoot semi. it is a skill. call it capped semi ramping, I dont care what you call it, it's more difficult all day every day.
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first get rid of the draft unless you can afford it for the whole year to travel second if you do a combine do it regional and break it down to where you have midwest, south , southeast, south west , rockies etc then make two cofnerences
The draft is within your region only. Trades can go down between regions, as long as there is reasonable incentive for the player. As for the regions, they are kind of split up like that already. Remember, this is the inaugural season, things will change in the coming years.
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:54 PM #314
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if you want to talk low paint consumption business... ask horizon how he modeled his place. more family fun and at the lower level, guess what..? keeps them coming back at a suprising cost per bag. they pay roughly the same to shoot 500 paintballs and have more fun in a .. forgive me.. A-hole free atmosphere.
From what I understand, they usually don't even shoot a full 500 paintballs. Definitely a good business plan he has going, but it's only at the recreational level.
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:54 PM #315
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you know it is a skill and harder to shoot 15 while doing atheletic things or off handed. you know you cant shoot 15 lefty running and gunning while loading. you cant. ever.
Yet, somehow, people are still doing it - I think that's the point

If you can come up with a way to effectively enforce true semi, I'll be the first to stand behind it, because I agree there is an added skill there, that we might as well include in the game, even if it IS a very small part of the game as a whole.

However, irrespective of "your league" or "Chris' league", we need to arrive at a solution that works for all the sport, even a small local event with 8 attending teams and noob refs.... at least if you subscribe to the principle that it would be beneficial to the sport, if everyone played the same game, under the same rules.
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