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Old 01-24-2012, 01:05 AM #274
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the difference is that there is a focal point for the fans to watch. in standard format a "5 min game" fans get to see one breakout and the match can last ~12 min if the refs dont call it and then the fans are just watching two or three guys sit in the same bunkers hoping that one of the 3000 paintballs they shoot at the same spot will hit its mark. NPL format each possession starts with a breakout and each possession can only last 2min 15sec. so the action never dies down it starts over and over again. No lag, no waiting, no downtime.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:05 AM #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
I never said it was a skill, but that is probably because I was always a slow trigger personally
Right, and you also never said semi-auto was a reasonable rule for competitive play.

I was using the definition of semi-auto that fits with that argument - that "semi-auto is better because it adds skill", which is a pile of crap if you allow electronic guns.

If we're just talking settings on the gun you're playing with, I'm perfectly content to say "semi-auto" even if there are some shots being added; I don't even set my gun to PSP ramp anymore, I set it to bouncy semi-auto with a ROF cap. Still gets me up to 12.5 when needed and I get a lot more control on paint going out.

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Old 01-24-2012, 01:08 AM #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shock2k3 View Post
and chris, I know you will never agree, you know it is a skill and harder to shoot 15 while doing atheletic things or off handed. you know you cant shoot 15 lefty running and gunning while loading. you cant. ever.
Sure I can.

Can't do it with my mag or my autococker, and certainly not my splatmasters (although I can shoot over 200 bps with them if I use both at the same time for 2 balls), but I can do it with virtually any electronic paintball gun available.


Again, I ask, if "semi-auto" is a skill, and it can be enforced, why is there a 15 bps cap?


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Last edited by raehl : 01-24-2012 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:55 AM #277
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Definitely getting back into paintball for this! I can't wait. I've been waiting for regional/conference play for a long time.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:50 AM #278
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those videos make this look SO dumb ahahahhahaha
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:23 AM #279
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:33 AM #280
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
Sure I can.

Can't do it with my mag or my autococker, and certainly not my splatmasters (although I can shoot over 200 bps with them if I use both at the same time for 2 balls), but I can do it with virtually any electronic paintball gun available.


Again, I ask, if "semi-auto" is a skill, and it can be enforced, why is there a 15 bps cap?


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Lol this guy... Call me ignorant and them claims he can shoot 15 bps left handed while running...
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:49 AM #281
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The same 12 bps a that is bouncing up to 15 consistant would translate to a lot more bps with no cap. Over 15 the people who are cheating get a 8 + bps increase, sure, they get caught but no one should ever be shooting almost double. At 15 I never see a problem. I play 10 7 man events a year and it just isn't a problem. Some get caught for going to crazy but I guess our definition of 'semi' won't ever be the same

And I was saying with a semi gun you can't just be ripping 15 and sliding into a corner, or other impossible feats that ramping allows. If you add enough bounce it won't get you through a day of play in nppl

How did shecki say it? He likes ramping but people shouldn't be able to pull 12.5 with mittens on.

However maybe offhanded sliding running whatever,maybe you can roll a gun 15 all day. It would be impressive and a skill to do this with a legal amount of bounce

What about an 8 bps kick in for ramp start settings? It's a minor change that would attract semi players. Honestly 12.5 cap seems so low it would be easy to enforce a semi rule. Who even cares if they are bouncing 3 bps, its better than ramping from like 3 bps
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:17 AM #282
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Who cares? EVERYONE CARES. 3bps is an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it. Someone will have the edge. How can you not see this? Ramping puts everyone on the same page.

Unfortunately, policing semi at this point in time is not feasible. It requires additional resources and it does not effectively put everyone on the same page. Ramping probably isn't ideal, but it's more of a "Can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude. It's the best way to accomplish what it is that we need in tournament paintball.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:54 AM #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbdude911 View Post
Lol this guy... Call me ignorant and them claims he can shoot 15 bps left handed while running...
It's not a claim, it's the truth. I can absolutely shoot 15 bps left-handed while running and not get penalized for it, as can anyone else using an electronic marker. Of course, so can virtually anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shock2k3 View Post
The same 12 bps a that is bouncing up to 15 consistant would translate to a lot more bps with no cap.
Thank you for finally agreeing that semi-auto is not enforceable.

If it were, 12 bps would be 12 bps, not 18, or, with a cap, 15.

The rate of fire of an electronic gun on a tournament paintball field is not determined by the skills or talents of the player. It is determined by the settings in the gun's board. That is not a "skill".

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Old 01-24-2012, 10:37 AM #284
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Can't you make your own thread? Or maybe take this to PMs?
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:41 AM #285
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where are these videos? Whoever posted this NEWS failed miserably at actually providing any info
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:45 AM #286
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:05 AM #287
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it is a skill to tune the gun, and not get caught, and how un-level do you really think the playing field is? its just harder to keep a consistant stream, you can't shoot 15 in nppl sliding into a corner one handed.. running and loading ect. not as easily or consistant as with a ramp mode.

more skill to use semi, more skill to tune the guns

it has nothing to do with you feeling cheated by a guy gettin 4 bps ramp and you can opnly achieve 2 bps ramp without getting caught. its about the people who see that semi takes more skill. everyone playing that is suppoprting semi will prefer a little ramp to blatant ramp.

I know you will point out 10 things in my statement to prove me wrong out of context, or maybe you wont just to prove me wrong. stop trying to be right and just take what I am telling you as insight to why %100 of people dont want ramping. I am not forcing my opinion on you ar anyone, just telling you that you are not right, niether am I, we are both representing different views of players. all I am trying to do is explain how I/we feel. take it in and try and listen good, any customer is a good one

all that said, I wont be in this thread anymore, we really do need to talk about this else where (or just drop it since obv there is just two sides to the story)

besides I am more interested in a low paint discussion
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:25 AM #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shock2k3 View Post
it is a skill to tune the gun, and not get caught
So semi-auto is better because it shows who the better cheater is.

That's a winning argument if I ever saw one.

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Old 01-24-2012, 11:34 AM #289
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So semi-auto is better because it shows who the better cheater is.

That's a winning argument if I ever saw one.

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That is what paintball is now a days.. Which is team the best cheater
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:41 AM #290
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Allow people to go out to games with 3 pods of paint total before filling their hopper and shoot at whatever rate of fire they like. Problem solved.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:49 AM #291
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Allow people to go out to games with 3 pods of paint total before filling their hopper and shoot at whatever rate of fire they like. Problem solved.
I might go a little bit lower on the limit (maybe hopper + pod, partially because it's a lot easier for refs if they don't have to verify that hoppers are empty), and I would let players give their paint to each other (so one player could start with 2 pods if another player started with none)...

but yes, exactly. If you limit paint, you don't have to care about firing mode at all.

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Old 01-24-2012, 11:53 AM #292
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
I might go a little bit lower on the limit (maybe hopper + pod, partially because it's a lot easier for refs if they don't have to verify that hoppers are empty), and I would let players give their paint to each other (so one player could start with 2 pods if another player started with none)...

but yes, exactly. If you limit paint, you don't have to care about firing mode at all.

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What would be your arguments against dropping the rof to (lets just say) 5bps ramping instead of limiting paint?

Just curious. Feel free to pm if you don't want to clutter the thread more.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:16 PM #293
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The biggest one is a paint limit leads to greater cost savings and more predictable costs. Even at 5 BPS, you can still dump a lot more paint per game than at hopperball or even hopper+1 pod.

Another is mechanics. I know Nick is all worried about losing "laning" from the game, but I don't see a whole lot of value in players being able to just pick a direction and keep shooting in that direction to either deny movemetn or hoping a player will run through it. With limited paint, you move the bunkers further apart, and instead of having to keep a stream of paint going through a small gap on the field to keep a player from advancing, you can just keep an eye on a larger gap and if a player goes to make the move, shoot them on the way into their bunker. Same effect, a lot less paint used.

Another problem with 5 or 6 bps is snap shooting - you can't snap shoot more than one ball. With limited paint, you can snap shoot at 5 bps, but get your bps into snaps of 3 balls that take far less than 6/10ths of a second.

Limited paint also allows for new strategy elements. If I say your team gets their hoppers plus 5 pods, you can decide how to allocate those pods amongst your players, and effectively give one player more "shooting power" than another. That's not an option with 6 bps across the board.

A low bps cap also requires electronic markers. When it's up at 12.5 or 15 bps, no one cares if i play with my mag. If it's down at 6 or 5, my mag becomes illegal or I can outshoot the ROF cap.

A bps cap also requires equipment to enforce - you need a device that can measure ROF, ideally in in-game circumstances. Anyone can count how many pods a team brings on the field with their eyes and, if the ref is especially dense, fingers.

I really don't see any advantages to low ROF cap over a straight paint limit. Limited paint is simple and effective, ROF cap not so much.


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Last edited by raehl : 01-24-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:44 PM #294
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Would such a limit on paint not slow down the game dramatically? Sure at first you may think it speeds up the game as people will be forced to be more aggressive as they run out of paint. But, what happens if one team just sits and waits for the only team to advance into a an angle with a clear shot?

I also feel as if this would eliminate snapshooting. It's already easy enough to see a paintball coming and move. People typically get hit when they are leaning as a paintball is about to hit, not giving them time. With such a limit on paint, you can't afford to do this.

Though, even if I am correct about this, new strategies would appear, of course.
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