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Old 06-26-2012, 07:48 PM #64
Vit Beeyer (Banned)
 
 
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http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/pos...ticulturalism/

Let's not discuss this Umami. It's much more productive ignoring friendly debate.

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/pos...n-and-culture/

Also worth reading.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:14 PM #65
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That, of course, is way too much work for most Americans today. So what we get instead is multiculturalism that means, "Hey, I listen to Fela, know how to eat with chopsticks, and took three years of high-school Spanish!" Then this little cultural pu pu platter is used as a weapon to avoid having to behave properly even in one's own culture. "I belched loudly at the end of dinner? So what? The X of the Y rain forest do that all the time!" Avoiding the fact that the X do this because in their culture, that is the right way to end dinner, and not to belch is considered disgusting.

Once you see the truth of the above, you realize another funny thing: American education in the 19th-century was far, far more multicultural, in the sense of actually learning another culture, than is today's education. Yes, it may have been only the Greeks and Romans who were considered worthy of our study, but at least students then actually studied them to the point that they could read a serious book in Latin or Greek, and compose in the languages. Sure, it would have been great if a few more cultures were permitted on the curriculum, but at least most students had to seriously grapple with at least one other culture.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:17 PM #66
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Holy hell Umami, I didn't realize you were this stupid.

Just because I BELIEVE that wearing the hijab obligatory doesn't mean I need to force someone WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE IT IS OBLIGATORY to wear it.
obligatory/əˈbligəˌtrē/
Adjective:
Required by a legal, moral, or other rule; compulsory.

If you believe it should be obligatory for someone to wear it, it means you believe it is compulsory; required. I have little doubt that was the OP's intent as well.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:19 PM #67
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Rate of rape in Muslim countries, very few
That's because your backwards cult shames women who were raped and labels them as adulterous whores. They are afraid to come forward when it happens because they risk persecution/murder if they do.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:26 PM #68
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Originally Posted by Umami View Post
obligatory/əˈbligəˌtrē/
Adjective:
Required by a legal, moral, or other rule; compulsory.

If you believe it should be obligatory for someone to wear it, it means you believe it is compulsory; required. I have little doubt that was the OP's intent as well.
Lol, yes I understand. I believe it is a requirement of a Muslim to wear hijab. My mom doesn't. If you don't think so, I'll just think you're not fulfilling your religious duty....and that's about it. I'm not going to put a gun to your head until you put one on. Voluntary acts of faith are THE ONLY acts of faith. And I can only worry about others to a point, because I'm busy worrying about myself.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:27 PM #69
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Originally Posted by Umami View Post
obligatory/əˈbligəˌtrē/
Adjective:
Required by a legal, moral, or other rule; compulsory.

If you believe it should be obligatory for someone to wear it, it means you believe it is compulsory; required. I have little doubt that was the OP's intent as well.
What if he believes in shades of gray and that the obligation is cultural? You're speaking of the practice as if it were a prerequisite for interacting in the social realm of society. Maybe it is more specific.

Not related:

http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2012...-of-the-world/

Again, if anyone wants to seriously discuss multiculturalism, I'd love to see an example of an actively multicultural society that isn't filled with violence and crime or diluted the underlying cultures to create some new ethos.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:36 PM #70
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Lol, yes I understand. I believe it is a requirement of a Muslim to wear hijab. My mom doesn't. If you don't think so, I'll just think you're not fulfilling your religious duty....and that's about it. I'm not going to put a gun to your head until you put one on. Voluntary acts of faith are THE ONLY acts of faith. And I can only worry about others to a point, because I'm busy worrying about myself.
Fair enough, just wanted to make sure we were clear on that point.

Why do you think a woman has to wear a Hijab to be a true Muslim, and why do you think your mother disagrees?
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Again, if anyone wants to seriously discuss multiculturalism, I'd love to see an example of an actively multicultural society that isn't filled with violence and crime or diluted the underlying cultures to create some new ethos.
There's nothing wrong with creating a new ethos from previous cultures - that's how cultures evolve.

If you want to talk about multiculturalism, make a thread that isn't about Hijabs.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:14 PM #71
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Fair enough, just wanted to make sure we were clear on that point.

Why do you think a woman has to wear a Hijab to be a true Muslim, and why do you think your mother disagrees?


There's nothing wrong with creating a new ethos from previous cultures - that's how cultures evolve.

If you want to talk about multiculturalism, make a thread that isn't about Hijabs.
A woman does not have to wear a hijab to be considered a "true Muslim". An old, tiny minority of Muslims who were Kharijites (type of Shia branch, only surviving population is the "Ibadis") believe the act of sinning is analogous to disbelief and non-faith. The rest of the Sunni and Shia branches hold that all it takes to be a true Muslim is belief in God and not associating others with him, and any act of sinning just makes you a "worse" Muslim while acts of faith make you a "better" Muslim.

My mom doesn't wear it because she feels modern times does not put Muslim women in danger of being harassed, and the only Qur'anic verse that commands women to dress modestly without giving an apparent reason is the one that says cover your bosoms (chest) and not to display "their beauty and ornaments except which ordinarily appear thereof". She also says that when she was growing up in Egypt, not many people wore it (which is true, the United Press in 1958 said "the veil is unknown here".)

I think the main big thing that people don't understand about Islam is that it's almost entirely based around forgiveness. God forgives absolutely every single sin.

"Say: O my slaves who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not for the mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. truly he is oft forgiving, most merciful." Az-Zumar (39:53)

The best thing about Islam is that it's understood we all sin. God did not give us religion to make our lives difficult. We do our best to stay on the right path, and seek God's forgiveness, through prayer, for when we can't.

Ab Hurayrah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said “This religion is easy. No one becomes harsh and strict in the religion without it overwhelming him. So fulfill your duties as best you can and rejoice. Rely upon the efforts of the morning and the evening and a little at night and you will reach your goal.” [Sahh al-Bukhar]
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:13 AM #72
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My mom doesn't wear it because she feels modern times does not put Muslim women in danger of being harassed, and the only Qur'anic verse that commands women to dress modestly without giving an apparent reason is the one that says cover your bosoms (chest) and not to display "their beauty and ornaments except which ordinarily appear thereof". She also says that when she was growing up in Egypt, not many people wore it (which is true, the United Press in 1958 said "the veil is unknown here".)
Alright, then why do you think it is "required by a legal, moral, or other rule; compulsory" for her to wear one?
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Last edited by Umami : 06-27-2012 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:19 PM #73
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Terms Islamic hijab?! :
A: The Islamic hijab must meet the 8 conditions as the scholars said, are:
1 - Not to be a garment of fame.
2 - and that is not brazen thin (ie, should not be transparent).
3 - and that covers her all the body except his face palms.
4 - and that is not in itself a decoration.
5 - and not to be embodied for the body (ie, should not be tight).
6 - and should not be perfumed with bakhoor.
7 - and that does not resemble the clothing of the man.
8 - Finally, that does not resemble the dress of kaafir women.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:45 PM #74
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:43 PM #75
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Upper class women of Muhammad's society had been wearing veils for hundreds of years before he imposed it. It was a sign of class and respect, as opposed to the heathen commoners who wore open robes or went topless (much easier to nurse in). As much as I hate and debate against Islam, I WILL give him credit that originally (in cultural context), the wearing of the veil truly was liberating for women, because it protected their identity and made men doubt their lower class status in public, which protected them from harassment
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:28 PM #76
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:29 PM #77
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Alright, then why do you think it is "required by a legal, moral, or other rule; compulsory" for her to wear one?
Because my interpretation of this verse

Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran 33:58–59)

I believe this verse, accompanied by supporting hadith, tells a woman she should cover up so that "they may be distinguished, and not be harassed", which I believe can be interpreted without the need for historical context of the revealed verse. I think the verse was revealed because in any context, women are judged immediately by their looks. In any context, and especially in some parts of America, girls grow up being taught and convinced that their worth is in their looks. It's so bad that as a society, we have to reassure and convince girls with counseling programs, Oprah specials, sad news reports, etc etc that their looks aren't the most important thing about them, but "what's inside is". These are the same things Islam teaches us, no different. These attempts are also highly ineffective because while we recognize the problem, little is done in the way of popular media/etc to combat it; instead, we see a constant and ever-worsening propagation of it. I believe Islam has the best solution. Nothing you ever do can change the nature of man (you can't control the uncontrollable), so a girl should recognize and desire to tell men "no, you can't see my hair, look at my *** or check out my tits, you need to judge me by the other thousand million qualities that define me" (take control of what she can control). This mindset makes most Middle-Eastern women very hard nosed, outspoken, assertive, sharp, and with proper education, intelligent. My own independent observations about life have showed me that women will ALWAYS BE subject of degradation by the more powerful men. Islam also recognizes the problem and provides a solution for it. I independently recognized the problem, and interpreted Islam's solution in the way I believe is intended, because that solution I believe provides the best impact on the problem.

Here's my opinion in short vs my mothers

Mother: Women were being harassed --> Wear hijab if you need to for protection --> Women don't need the protection in modern times because of no harassment --> No need to wear it

Me: Women were being harassed --> Wear hijab to help distinguish and protect you --> Women are still being harassed and degraded and will always be --> Wear it because you shouldn't want to be degraded
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:31 PM #78
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Women being harassed--> cut the balls off the animals doing the harassment. Short cut! It also shows where the real problem lies. In any culture that tolerates men being rutting dogs with little concequence for their actions.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:11 PM #79
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What culture tolerates men being rutting dogs? Many Muslim countries have capital punishment for rape. Cutting balls off = constantly cutting balls off forever. It's impossible to change what a small percentage of men will do. It's a futile task, plain and simple. Can't be done, so good luck trying. Even checking a girl out in itself is degrading, especially how bad it's gotten. Every man is guilty of it, and if you say you're not you're lying. That's why a woman should take the matters into her own hands.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:37 PM #80
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What culture tolerates men being rutting dogs? Many Muslim countries have capital punishment for rape. Cutting balls off = constantly cutting balls off forever. It's impossible to change what a small percentage of men will do. It's a futile task, plain and simple. Can't be done, so good luck trying. Even checking a girl out in itself is degrading, especially how bad it's gotten. Every man is guilty of it, and if you say you're not you're lying. That's why a woman should take the matters into her own hands.
It's almost as if you think that sexual desires are something to be ashamed of.

Oh wait, that is what you think. How are you enjoying your creation of serial killers and mental instability?
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:46 PM #81
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So which countries have the highest occurrence of serial killers and mental problems? Are you sure it's a Muslim majority country?

(Hint: Muslim/Middle eastern/North African countries have the lowest murder rates in the world)
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:46 PM #82
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So which countries have the highest occurrence of serial killers and mental problems? Are you sure it's a Muslim majority country?

(Hint: Muslim/Middle eastern/North African countries have the lowest murder rates in the world)
Lowest reported rates and Sudan is pretty far north and definitely not a low murder rate.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:07 PM #83
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Oh yea, I forgot. Muslims and Arabs don't care enough to report if their family member has been murdered

From now on I'm only going to respond to posters who have anything of substance to say.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:24 AM #84
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Oh yea, I forgot. Muslims and Arabs don't care enough to report if their family member has been murdered
You totally missed the point of what he was saying.

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So which countries have the highest occurrence of serial killers and mental problems? Are you sure it's a Muslim majority country?

(Hint: Muslim/Middle eastern/North African countries have the lowest murder rates in the world)
They also have vastly lower populations, lack of documentation on deaths, poor living conditions, aids, wars, genocide, etc.

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