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Old 06-15-2012, 08:48 PM #64
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edit: I really need to check my notes before discussing this further, its been years since I've studies any kind of hebrew. I'll change this post later.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:03 PM #65
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ALL sexual immorality. That's the catch all phrase used in the bible bro. Funny how you make God the bad guy When it is us that sinned in the first place not him.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:54 AM #66
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^Do the creators of the atomic bomb share any blame for the deaths Fat Man and Little Boy caused?
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Old 06-16-2012, 01:29 PM #67
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^^that doesn't deserve response, but I'll give you one anyways. Parents tell their kids not to do things all the time, expecting them to listen to their best ability, but eventually parents know that kids are going to disobey and step out of line at some point. No one is perfect, but God. If God gave you no choice of whether or not to love Him, that wouldn't be a loving God at all and you would be a walking robot. He CHOOSES US FIRST, and we choose him in the second place. It's a both/AND situation. Your human logic nor mine will ever be able to wrap our minds around it, but that's how the Bible puts it brothers.
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Old 06-16-2012, 02:31 PM #68
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^^that doesn't deserve response, but I'll give you one anyways. Parents tell their kids not to do things all the time, expecting them to listen to their best ability, but eventually parents know that kids are going to disobey and step out of line at some point. No one is perfect, but God. If God gave you no choice of whether or not to love Him, that wouldn't be a loving God at all and you would be a walking robot. He CHOOSES US FIRST, and we choose him in the second place. It's a both/AND situation. Your human logic nor mine will ever be able to wrap our minds around it, but that's how the Bible puts it brothers.
The things Christians can say without seeing their crazy...
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Old 06-16-2012, 03:19 PM #69
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but he made us. why can't our minds wrap around it?

God made us in his likeness, except when it comes to logic/reasoning, and sin?
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Old 06-16-2012, 03:25 PM #70
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Bible says made in the image of God, where does it say we are given all the knowledge and understanding God possesses? Nowhere.
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Old 06-16-2012, 03:44 PM #71
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kind of jank. pretty critical to forget to give your creations your knowledge and understanding, especially when they are damned to hell when they don't live the life you expect them to do.

hell, the first humans created sinned. right away they fell short of god's expectations (even though he's omnipotent, so he should have seen it coming, but that's neither here nor there).

when you build something do you get upset at it when it falls apart? or do you take the responsibility for it and fix it? it just seems so strange that god would build a flawed creation to begin with, and THEN allow our lives to continue and punish us if we do not live according to his plans. which, right away, we demonstrated we could not.
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Old 06-16-2012, 04:01 PM #72
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Have you forgotten about Jesus Christ? He fixes the sin problem bro. Jesus is/was God in the flesh. If God didn't give you the choice to love Him would that be love at all? Some will love him some won't those that love Him have been chosen by God. Those that aren't chosen will never find it in their hearts to love God back, therefore they are not chosen. Debate all you want til you turn blue in the face, but that's how it is. You want logic? Look at pascals wager perhaps and see who has more faith. The Christian or the atheist? The atheist.
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:27 PM #73
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Either I perish in the flames of hell or I continue to be bound to the endless cycle of samsara. **** decisions decisions. I could choose to believe in neither of those. But what if I am wrong. Oh boy. What happens if I choose to worship Jesus and I end up ****ing my karma? Man this is hard.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:55 PM #74
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Have you forgotten about Jesus Christ? He fixes the sin problem bro. Jesus is/was God in the flesh. If God didn't give you the choice to love Him would that be love at all?
Worship me or inescapably burn in Hell for eternity isn't really giving us a choice to love him or not. And personally, I'd be open to worshiping and loving a god if the existence of this god were supported by some shred of evidence outside of ancient/primitive human written texts, and vague prophecies. Show me your god is more than a concept/conjured idea created by man, and I will consider the whole worshiping and rule abiding thing.
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Some will love him some won't those that love Him have been chosen by God.
Lucky those people. It must be nice to have been chosen to be placed on the heaven track of fate. Sucks for everybody born in either the wrong region of the world, or wrong time period.
[quote]
Quote:
Those that aren't chosen will never find it in their hearts to love God back, therefore they are not chosen. Debate all you want til you turn blue in the face, but that's how it is. You want logic? Look at pascals wager perhaps and see who has more faith. The Christian or the atheist? The atheist.
You should reflect more on Pascal's wager. It has been debunked for ages. For starters, there have been over 10,000 cataloged gods/deities throughout recorded history. What are the odds that yours is the one true god?

And in reference to atheists having more faith than Christians, this is a thoughtless and fallacious talking point. Theists are the named group, who suggest the idea of the existence of a god. An Atheist, is simply one who cannot be classified into that group, as they are not convinced in the validity of Theism.

Also, what definition of faith are you using, when you say Atheism requires more than Theism?

If you are going by the common "Belief/conviction without evidence," then I hope you can simply realize your willful ignorance without me shining a bright light on it.

If it is something along the lines of "Having hope while believing that your hope will be true/rewarded," then I must say that there really isn't anything that all Atheists typically have this kind of faith in. Most atheists are so labeled as such, because they require a higher degree of evidence than theists often do. Atheists observe the world/existence, strive to discover what is real/true, regardless of how they might feel about the said truth.

I don't lay awake at night hoping I don't go to Hell, as it is as fictional a place as Hogwarts to me. I certainly don't lay awake hoping I get sorted into
Gryffindor either. BUT, if there is an afterlife and a god, I feel like the below quote captures my sentiment fairly well.

Quote:
"If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul.

I would also want a God who would not allow a Hell. Infinite torture can only be a punishment for infinite evil, and I don't believe that infinite evil can be said to exist even in the case of Hitler. Besides, if most human governments are civilized enough to try to eliminate torture and outlaw cruel and unusual punishments, can we expect anything less of an all-merciful God?
I feel that if there were an afterlife, punishment for evil would be reasonable and of a fixed term. And I feel that the longest and worst punishment should be reserved for those who slandered God by inventing Hell."
- Isaac Asimov
And just for fun, here are two other good quotes, slightly related:
Quote:
"I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be."
- Isaac Asimov
Quote:
"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this Earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."
- Christopher Hitchens
Bottom line thought, I know I am a good person. My friends know I am a good person. My family knows I am a good person. My community sees me as a good person. That's enough for me. I don't need a list of rules to abide by that were drawn up thousands of years ago. I work to ease/eradicate suffering every day, and do my best to help others pursue meaningful and happy lives. If your god exists, and damns me and so many atheists like me, then He is not a god worthy of worship. Respect and fear, sure. But He can't make me feel love for him. I cannot help the way I think, the way I feel, and the way I see the world. I'm merely the victim of a series of coincidences, as are we all(KV). And I'm perfectly happy with the the man I am, and the way the world is. But there is always room for growth and betterment. I don't see this world as fallen, or man as naturally sinful.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:41 PM #75
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It's faith based. No sense in arguing since you refuse at this point in time to have the same faith as I. We can go in circles all day everyday. You can't prove God doesn't exist just as much as I can't prove He does exist. Can't put Him in a bottle for you to show and tell. There is so much more to this world that is here that you do not see with your eyes. "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:32 PM #76
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Debate all you want til you turn blue in the face, but that's how it is.
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"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
What makes you think unquestioning faith is a good thing? What makes those who believe sight unseen blessed?

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Old 06-16-2012, 11:42 PM #77
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I don't know what's worse, how angry some Christians got or how angry the atheists got?

"Hypothesis: Darwinism does not significantly alter the force of the design argument for God's existence. If it was weak before Darwin, it was weak after Darwin. If it was strong before Darwin, it was strong after Darwin."
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Old 06-17-2012, 03:40 AM #78
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What wild, imaginative bridge have you created that combines the interpretation of a Hebrew word and the research of the workings from a collective spiritual idea? I'm separating these two entities because they are not inclusive of each other. I want to know what the context for the translation of the word "rape" should be taken in back then. Either contribute, or don't bother.

I'm asking for an explanation of a word that, right now, is being used as an argument without a base; a cop-out if you will.
You're assuming a lot of knowledge on his part. I'm more intrigued than anything by your seemingly implicit claim that you can study ancient hebrew without also studying the religion and the writings.
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Old 06-17-2012, 04:40 AM #79
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okay, I had planned to actually speak to a rabbi today and so I was going to bring some of this up with him, but things got moved around. Anyways I'm awake at 2 in the morning with nothing better to do, so I consulted my notes.EDIT: Word of warning, this was typed up on the fly between 2 and 3 AM, using some notes I took in college over 3 years ago for a class I barely passed, so this will likely not flow in the least. Deal with it. Looking primarily at Deuteronomy 22 as an example, so here is 22:23-24 (NIV)

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

and 22:25-27 (NIV)

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

Okay so here's a situation people like to bring up in 23-24 that the victim is put to death Judaism condones rape blah blah. However there are some problems with this. 1. this is a case of clunky translation, as there isn't actually a Hebrew word for rape and 2. the hebrew language is incredibly dependent on context clues, which many people seem to ignore. So in both cases the original Hebrew that is being translated here is two words. Taphas, which means to take or be taken, to sieze or be siezed, etc. and shakab to lie with, in this case its safe to assume they are speaking of intercourse.

So there is an implication that the sex acts were forced, but as I said we really need to look to the verses around them to get a clearer picture of the scenario. This is why the second part of 24 and verse 27 are important. In verse 27, the victim was screaming for help, which lets us know this was pretty black and white sexual assault rape as we know it in the modern context. Also, while it does not show in this translation (NIV is not an incredibly faithful translation) but in 25 we see the word chazaq, which means to force, which further strengthens the idea that this is rape as you or I would define it. This word chazaq is absent in verse 23, further leading scholars to believe that the first scenario is not describing rape.

in the second part of 24, most biblical scholars believe its pointed out that the female did not call for help because while the man did impose himself on her and take advantage of her, it was not necessarily sexual assault.

As you mentioned before Deuteronomy 22:13-30 is mostly dealing with marriage violations and adultery but it does give us an idea of how rape was treated in ancient Jewish culture.

Thats really all I have to contribute for this thread, I'd rather not get wrapped up in this Silverghost vs. the world part. Good on him for attempting to defend his faith, unfortunately I feel he is ill-equipped and under prepared.

edit: if one is catholic this becomes a much simpler question as I believe rape is explicitly discussed and condemned in the catechism.
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:39 PM #80
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I don't know what's worse, how angry some Christians got or how angry the atheists got?

"Hypothesis: Darwinism does not significantly alter the force of the design argument for God's existence. If it was weak before Darwin, it was weak after Darwin. If it was strong before Darwin, it was strong after Darwin."
It goes without saying that Darwinism is a part of the design. If there is a designer. People seem to have a hang up on that one. Both sides. I honestly don't know how.
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:59 PM #81
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It goes without saying that Darwinism is a part of the design. If there is a designer. People seem to have a hang up on that one. Both sides. I honestly don't know how.
It's giving an unsupported answer to a question we simply can't answer right now.

"I don't know" isn't something theists seem to be comfortable saying, it usually gets twisted into "God did it".
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Old 06-17-2012, 05:38 PM #82
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It's giving an unsupported answer to a question we simply can't answer right now.

"I don't know" isn't something theists seem to be comfortable saying, it usually gets twisted into "God did it".
If they are correct, Darwinism is a mechanism.

If you are correct, Darwinism is a mechanism.

Trying to disprove it at this stage of the game is asinine. True creationists should recognize all dicoveries as creations. The accuracy of them notwithstanding.
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:06 PM #83
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If they are correct, Darwinism is a mechanism.

If you are correct, Darwinism is a mechanism.
I'm not talking about Darwinism. I'm talking about the part before darwinism, that we know relatively little about.

Admitting "we just don't know" doesn't seem to be an option for theists, it inevitably gets some story about how God did it (for the time being, anyway).
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:09 PM #84
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I'm not talking about Darwinism. I'm talking about the part before darwinism, that we know relatively little about.

Admitting "we just don't know" doesn't seem to be an option for theists, it inevitably gets attributed to God (for the time being, anyway).
Well yes it makes sense why they say god did it because god is the word we use to describe the cause.
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