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Old 06-15-2012, 03:45 PM #43
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Originally Posted by Silverghost View Post
Apart from a new heart, all that refuse to believe in the works of Jesus will not be saved. Stubborn like Pharaoh and becoming your own God or making something other than God your god and worshipping that instead. Don't make God out to be some violent abusive father while he carelessly sits in a lawn chair in the front yard while his child runs out into oncoming traffic. God gives you chances to come to Him in love and repentance and you refusing Him is your choice, which he foresees, but you ultimately made that decision. What melts the ice hardens the clay.
Yeah yeah yeah. How's that apple tasting bud?
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:47 PM #44
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Eternal life tastes great, you should try it out sometime. Love ya brotha.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:59 PM #45
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Like keeping household cleaners under the sink but making a point to remind your children not to play with them. They may not understand the danger involved but they should understand that their parents love them and dont want to see them harmed so if they tell you not to drink the drano, dont drink the drano.
So they're innocent to the pain and suffering but they should know what love is?

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Eternal life tastes great, you should try it out sometime. Love ya brotha.
Conservation of matter means we're living eternal life as we bicker. Pretty astounding, eh?
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:06 PM #46
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Eternal life tastes great, you should try it out sometime. Love ya brotha.
Bliss without pain is overrated. Enjoy numbness I'll choose death over that if the universe was really as simple as you've managed to **** it out to be.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:07 PM #47
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Treghc,

Free will vs. Pre-destination - It's possible for both to exist. God knows everything that will come. So he knew I was going to be responding to you in exactly the fashion that I am, wearing what I'm wearing right now, in the place I am right now, even right down to the very millisecond. However, I also decided/wanted to do so in this way at this time. Although God knew I was going to do it before I even did it, I still "chose" to do it. He didn't come down with a cosmic force and grab my fingers and "force" me to type this response to you and feel exactly how I feel. It's not even a dichotomy, but a complete overlapping of the other in harmony with one another. He knows the plot, we don't.
No. You can't have both. By God knowing the choices we will make, our lives are then determined; determinism. Whether we make the decisions or not does not matter. Our decision is already known, thus not making it a choice at all. Our fate is determined by an outside force before we are even born.

Also, you did not touch on the core of my argument; we have no control over our own thoughts. We have no explanation for what causes thoughts. This completely destroys any notion of free will. Why did I choose to respond to you? Why didn't I choose to think of what I'm going to get for lunch instead? Why didn't I think about what classes I'm going to take next quarter? There's no explanation.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:10 PM #48
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since work won't let me post this much text...

Quote:
I agree completely on the statement of we don't have choice to be born with or without sin, because we are all by definition sinners.
By YOUR definition. But hey, I find it cute that you believe all babies go to hell. Pure innocence tortured for eternity. What a loving God...

Quote:
The last part on morality depends on what you consider to be the meaning of life. If in fact you believe that there is no life after death and that we are simply nothing more than matter and meaningless specks on this revolving globe, what motives do you have for contributing anything to society? Shouldn't we just live selfishly and chase happiness? Where do you get a sense of what is right and wrong? How do you measure love? How do you measure passion? How do you explain why nothing in this world ever fulfills you and is fleeting? You can't, other than falling on the simply truth that everyone knows deep down there is something much more to this universe than simply what you can see, that part of you longs for something that this world will never satisfy.
You're trying to say that without religion, people have no morals? Without God's commandments or teachings, we would have no morals? What about the hundreds of thousands of years of our existence before God's writings? How did we survive then?

The answer is very simple: human solidarity. I know what it's like to be hurt, both emotionally and physically and my morals are based off what I can best perceive as appropriate actions as not to harm others, as well as myself.

I don't measure love. I don't measure passion. I know they are nothing but electric and chemical transactions occurring in our brain that can even be replicated through electric stimulation from outside sources. It's a drive that is absolutely necessary for the survival of our species, encouraging us (rather greatly) to procreate and continue the existence of our species. Without this urge and desire, we would end up where Pandas are heading right now for the very same reasons.

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Also regarding hell - Open a Bible and turn to revelations and read thru, talks plenty about end times and hell in there. If you are looking for a particular verse let me know.
Very little is explained about the details of Hell. I'm asking you to please tell me what happens in Hell and reference it via scripture because the picture you're painting seems to fall in line with common cultural trends rather than the Bible itself.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:16 PM #49
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He can't because his version of hell was created by Milton and Dante.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:32 PM #50
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
since work won't let me post this much text...



By YOUR definition. But hey, I find it cute that you believe all babies go to hell. Pure innocence tortured for eternity. What a loving God... Deuteronomy 1:39 - age of innocence says otherwise

You're trying to say that without religion, people have no morals? Without God's commandments or teachings, we would have no morals? What about the hundreds of thousands of years of our existence before God's writings? How did we survive then? No, without religion you can still have morals, but I believe it to just be an echo of God's character.

The answer is very simple: human solidarity. I know what it's like to be hurt, both emotionally and physically and my morals are based off what I can best perceive as appropriate actions as not to harm others, as well as myself.

I don't measure love. I don't measure passion. I know they are nothing but electric and chemical transactions occurring in our brain that can even be replicated through electric stimulation from outside sources. It's a drive that is absolutely necessary for the survival of our species, encouraging us (rather greatly) to procreate and continue the existence of our species. Without this urge and desire, we would end up where Pandas are heading right now for the very same reasons. How do you know they are nothing more than electrical and chemical reactions? What science proves they are nothing more than that? Hook me up to a machine and replicate the love I have for my father and mother, or the desire I have to serve others before myself. Can you do that? Can you craft something to put those emotions inside of me that gives me the same feelings and desires? No. God does that. You have a soul inside of you, you're not just simple meaningless matter. You are here for a reason bro.

Very little is explained about the details of Hell. I'm asking you to please tell me what happens in Hell and reference it via scripture because the picture you're painting seems to fall in line with common cultural trends rather than the Bible itself.
Isaiah 33:14 - devouring fire and everlasting burning.
Matt 12:32 - No chance for repentance when you are there.
Matthew 25:46 - everlasting punishment
Luke 16:23 - eternal torment
Luke 16:28 - Would not want our loved ones to go
Revelation 20:1 - bottomless pit
Revelation 20:15 - lake of fire
Matthew 25:30 - outer darkness along with weeping and gnashing of teeth

Jesus talked way more about hell than he did heaven.

Sounds great doesn't it... I don't wish that on anyone, and in fact I despise the people that stand on corners shouting "You're gonna burn in hell" because that isn't the way the gospel of Jesus Christ is spread. God is the judge and it my duty and honor to inform the unbelievers of Christ's love and work on the cross.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:45 PM #51
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Context is a *****. Take Isaiah. Its about the destruction of Judah and the restoration of gods kingdom. Nothing about hell. Either you are dishonest or a complete fool.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:51 PM #52
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By YOUR definition. But hey, I find it cute that you believe all babies go to hell. Pure innocence tortured for eternity. What a loving God...
Once again just correcting the misinformed. There is no scriptire that deals directly with this issue, and what information we can gleen from tangentially related instances is still less than perfect.

Quote:
Very little is explained about the details of Hell. I'm asking you to please tell me what happens in Hell and reference it via scripture because the picture you're painting seems to fall in line with common cultural trends rather than the Bible itself.
Im not giving reference now because Im on my phone and its not worth the time but hell is a place of:
Weeping and gnashing of teeth
Sorrow
Hopelessness
Everlasting destruction
Outer darkness
Endless torment
Lake of fire
Where fire is never quenched
Where men are tortured with fire and brimstone
A bottomless pit
A place with no rest

And some more I cant remember off the top of my head.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:13 PM #53
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Context is a *****. Take Isaiah. Its about the destruction of Judah and the restoration of gods kingdom. Nothing about hell. Either you are dishonest or a complete fool.
Before you misinterpret you should look at the text and the Bible as a whole a little closer before laying out false accusations. You don't just look at the context when looking at the meaning of something in the Bible you have to look at what comes before and after the text as well as cross refrence it to the rest of the Bible and the Book itself.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:20 PM #54
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Before you misinterpret you should look at the text and the Bible as a whole a little closer before laying out false accusations. You don't just look at the context when looking at the meaning of something in the Bible you have to look at what comes before and after the text as well as cross refrence it to the rest of the Bible and the Book itself.
Oh so you are a fool. Thought so. I figured I would give you the benefit of the doubt in hopes that you were just a liar.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:27 PM #55
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This new bandwidth limit is exceedingly annoying... Sorry for the double posting.

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Deuteronomy 1:39 - age of innocence says otherwise
Ah. So Deuteronomy means something now... While we're in that book, let me post these in regards to your moral reference:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 17:12
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 22:20-21
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
So what are you going to do about those? Do these not apply?

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No, without religion you can still have morals, but I believe it to just be an echo of God's character.
Not in the slightest bit. My moral views include the wonderful world of anonymity and seclusion as a right that anyone should be able to obtain. God denies this to everyone, for he watches you 24/7, knows what you're saying and knows what you're thinking, all day, every day, before life, during life, and even after you're dead. That is a perversion of security and I am against it; I'm against God's character.

I'm also for freedom of choice, including the ability to choose abortion and the ability to research embryonic stem cells. I'm for equal marriage rights. The list goes on. These are all seen as being wrong by God's "character."

Morals are grown through a cultural understanding, significant study in philosophy, and through neurological evolution which hard wires us to care for other human beings (thus psychopathy being a trait in the minority of individuals, labeling it as an abnormality).
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:27 PM #56
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Originally Posted by Silverghost View Post
How do you know they are nothing more than electrical and chemical reactions? What science proves they are nothing more than that? Hook me up to a machine and replicate the love I have for my father and mother, or the desire I have to serve others before myself. Can you do that? Can you craft something to put those emotions inside of me that gives me the same feelings and desires? No. God does that. You have a soul inside of you, you're not just simple meaningless matter. You are here for a reason bro.
I'm not going to pretend to know this answer. This separates me from you. I'm not going to make an assumption and tell others to follow this assumption. I'd much rather use our best known method of practice for understanding the universe we live in. Human consciousness has been my "spiritual realm" of mystification that I would love to know as much as possible about as I believe it will unlock a vast majority of philosophical questions that still arise today.

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Isaiah 33:14 - devouring fire and everlasting burning.
Matt 12:32 - No chance for repentance when you are there.
Matthew 25:46 - everlasting punishment
Luke 16:23 - eternal torment
Luke 16:28 - Would not want our loved ones to go
Revelation 20:1 - bottomless pit
Revelation 20:15 - lake of fire
Matthew 25:30 - outer darkness along with weeping and gnashing of teeth

Jesus talked way more about hell than he did heaven.

Sounds great doesn't it... I don't wish that on anyone, and in fact I despise the people that stand on corners shouting "You're gonna burn in hell" because that isn't the way the gospel of Jesus Christ is spread. God is the judge and it my duty and honor to inform the unbelievers of Christ's love and work on the cross.
Actually, it does sound kind of cool.

So, is all of hell like this? Only certain areas? Does the devil truly torment the ones that do his deeds? Can I help the devil to do more evil deeds? Is there a spa somewhere? Will they serve fresh mango slices if they're in season?

The trouble is, Jesus doesn't run this place. He's never even been there. Satan does run it though. Where are the words from Satan? I find it incredibly foolish to believe in something from a single source of which has not even been to the very place he/she is trying to describe.

What if Satan denies me too? Then where do I go? Is it for eternity as well?

The all-encompassing trouble is, since God is all knowing and all powerful and has existed before anything else has ever existed, we have to reach the conclusion that God made Lucifer, knowing he would betray God and fall from the heavens to create Hell. God knew that he would be introducing sin in to the world. God KNEW all of this and did it. You have every bit of evil to blame on God just as much as good is placed on God. ALL of this is God's plan and you still find this being worthy of your oath and prayer?
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:31 PM #57
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Once again just correcting the misinformed. There is no scriptire that deals directly with this issue, and what information we can gleen from tangentially related instances is still less than perfect.
1 - All are born with sin, no? Sinners that don't accept Christ as their savior go to hell, no? Babies are therefore born in sin, no? Babies are not able to comprehend the concept of God and the story of Jesus until a few years after birth, or are you arguing otherwise? Therefore, babies go to hell. Simple, plain, basic logic.

2 - There is no scripture that says rape is wrong. So, guess I'm free to rape all I want. Hell, I think I'm going to go out after work and rather than work out, I'll just rape girls at the gym and claim religious reasons. It'll be rapefest from here on out; just sheer raping for the great fun that rape is because God never commanded me it was morally wrong (rather, he told men that rape women have to marry them to be forgiven, thus giving me an infinite amount of time to continue to rape them after we're already married)!
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:52 PM #58
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Treghc,

In reference to the stoning of the unclean woman, this law was put into effect to stress the severity of how much God hated sin. However, when Jesus walked the earth you should know that he spared the adulterous woman while the people wanted to stone her for her sins.

Also, I never said that your morals completely reflect God's morals, just a mere echo "OF" his character in regards to some aspects. There are plenty of things that nowadays we would see as complete abnormalities that seemed fine back in biblical times and vice versa.

You should know that the devil does not rule hell, but God will reign over both heaven and hell. Satan doesn't get to have his pitch fork and sit on the throne of hell. He will burn with the other fallen angels along with those that choose hell for eternity.

God didn't directly make/cause sin. Use the analogy of a parent telling their child not to do something. The child goes off and does it anyway. Would you not agree that the parent is innocent of the child disobeying them from touching the stove when they warned them of the danger of touching the stove? Isn't it the child's fault? And just so we are clear the original sin doesn't lie in the garden it lies in the heart of Lucifer who was the first to sin before the fall of man.

Sexual immorality is constantly preached against in the Bible and rape would fall into that category making your last post mute and unbiblical.
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:19 PM #59
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Treghc,

In reference to the stoning of the unclean woman, this law was put into effect to stress the severity of how much God hated sin. However, when Jesus walked the earth you should know that he spared the adulterous woman while the people wanted to stone her for her sins.
He also stated that the Law shall remain the Law and not a single word shall be wrong until heaven and earth disappear. So... yeah... I guess pick and choose, right?

Quote:
Also, I never said that your morals completely reflect God's morals, just a mere echo "OF" his character in regards to some aspects. There are plenty of things that nowadays we would see as complete abnormalities that seemed fine back in biblical times and vice versa.
So God's morals change? Good to know...

So, what is his character? Mind explaining that to me in your own words, through your own understanding?

Quote:
You should know that the devil does not rule hell, but God will reign over both heaven and hell. Satan doesn't get to have his pitch fork and sit on the throne of hell. He will burn with the other fallen angels along with those that choose hell for eternity.
Ah. So we have God to blame for eternal torture. What a loving fellow. The one being that has the power to make all men good or, at the very least, change the only things that made them bad, decides to torture his own predetermined creations for all eternity. What a ****stick. What a maniacal, heathenistic dictator or a being. We have to follow his commands or else we face eternal damnation and punishment. Hello, celestial North Korea!

Quote:
God didn't directly make/cause sin. Use the analogy of a parent telling their child not to do something. The child goes off and does it anyway. Would you not agree that the parent is innocent of the child disobeying them from touching the stove when they warned them of the danger of touching the stove? Isn't it the child's fault? And just so we are clear the original sin doesn't lie in the garden it lies in the heart of Lucifer who was the first to sin before the fall of man.
Let's go with this analogy. If I didn't place gasoline around the house, there wouldn't be a problem, would there? If I didn't place matches in the house, there wouldn't be a problem, would there? But I placed both items there and made the being that is curious enough to warrant a warning issued to that being about what I put there. How am I not responsible for the actions of a being that didn't know any better?

Quote:
Sexual immorality is constantly preached against in the Bible and rape would fall into that category making your last post mute and unbiblical.
Rape is also preached as being perfectly acceptable...
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:22 PM #60
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1 - All are born with sin, no? Sinners that don't accept Christ as their savior go to hell, no? Babies are therefore born in sin, no? Babies are not able to comprehend the concept of God and the story of Jesus until a few years after birth, or are you arguing otherwise? Therefore, babies go to hell. Simple, plain, basic logic.
That is one side of the argument, yes.

Quote:
- There is no scripture that says rape is wrong. So, guess I'm free to rape all I want. Hell, I think I'm going to go out after work and rather than work out, I'll just rape girls at the gym and claim religious reasons. It'll be rapefest from here on out; just sheer raping for the great fun that rape is because God never commanded me it was morally wrong (rather, he told men that rape women have to marry them to be forgiven, thus giving me an infinite amount of time to continue to rape them after we're already married)!
Dueteronomy 22:25, off the top of my head. Rape is tough to discuss without understanding the original hebrew and the cultural context, which would require me to go to my notes. I do know there is a difference in hebrew law between like a brutal physical sexual assault, which is punishable by death and something more akin to date-rape which has some less severe but more complicated repercussions.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:02 PM #61
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Dueteronomy 22:25, off the top of my head. Rape is tough to discuss without understanding the original hebrew and the cultural context, which would require me to go to my notes. I do know there is a difference in hebrew law between like a brutal physical sexual assault, which is punishable by death and something more akin to date-rape which has some less severe but more complicated repercussions.
That passage is for forced adultery. Not rape. It's raping an already married woman. Any woman not claimed is free game to **** at your dispense?

I will admit that I am not one well versed in the interpretation of ancient Hebrew language and law, but I am very interested to see how "rape" can translate to anything else.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:58 PM #62
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If you're actually interested in that you'll need to start studying religion and theology rather than bashing it, yano.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:20 PM #63
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If you're actually interested in that you'll need to start studying religion and theology rather than bashing it, yano.
What wild, imaginative bridge have you created that combines the interpretation of a Hebrew word and the research of the workings from a collective spiritual idea? I'm separating these two entities because they are not inclusive of each other. I want to know what the context for the translation of the word "rape" should be taken in back then. Either contribute, or don't bother.

I'm asking for an explanation of a word that, right now, is being used as an argument without a base; a cop-out if you will.
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