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Old 06-14-2012, 11:53 PM #22
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Your choice. Good luck.
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:31 AM #23
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Good luck with what?

I CONCEDE NOTHING

If God and heaven exist and in fact made me in his image, then he understands that I cannot be a sheep in his flock. If he condemns me for not swallowing a dogma I cannot agree with because of the way he made me, he's an *** and I don't want in.

If God and heaven exist and I spend my life helping people, expanding human knowledge and overall making the world a better place for everyone, and he doesn't send me on up to heaven for not swallowing the savior bit or faith bait, I don't want to go. Everyone worth spending eternity with will be in Hell anyway.

Either way, you can take your proselytizing and shove it. I have no desire to join an autocracy headed by an imaginary being.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:33 AM #24
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I don't think it's too important to be a "sheep in the flock"...belief in God is ultimately 100% personal, and doesn't require you to join anything. If you don't believe in God, well then....you don't believe in God. There really isn't much anyone can do to change your mind about it, only God. And it's forbidden of me to tell you whether or not you're going to heaven or hell because of what you believe.

"Say to those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah: It is for him to repay each People according to what they have earned. Whosoever does a rightful deed, it works to help his own soul; Whosoever does evil, it works against (his own soul). In the end you will all be brought back to your Lord" (Qur'an 45:14-15)
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:41 AM #25
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I don't know what crap you've been listening to or hearing from people, but the point of Christianity is the GOSPEL. In a nut shell, God.Our.Sins.Paying.Everyone.Life. That man is total depraved, incapable of atoning or working off his sins on his own, but in need of a savior/sacrificial lamb/Jesus to pay the ransom that originated in the garden. The easy path would be to walk away from the gospel and live our own lives apart from Christ completely and just do as we please. People that don't walk in Christ's footsteps make it sound so easy when it really isn't.
I have reason to believe the messiahbot OP is actually messianic jew, in which case martianchurch's argument would have some merit.

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Anyone else find it a bit hilarious that god didn't want them to eat the fruit of knowledge? Stay ignorant and follow the writings of those who stood to benefit from your adherence.
no, I don't, because you've conveniently left half of the name of the tree out of your post. It's the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before the fall, man was innocent, could not comprehend the concept evil.
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:19 AM #26
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no, I don't, because you've conveniently left half of the name of the tree out of your post. It's the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before the fall, man was innocent, could not comprehend the concept evil.
Do you ever stop and think about what you're typing?
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:27 AM #27
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Such hostility Umami. Why so mad?
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:41 AM #28
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Do you ever stop and think about what you're typing?
yeah, do you? He was either ignorant of the full name of the tree or being disingenuous, either way I thought I'd clear things up. Dropping the "of good and evil" significantly alters the dynamics of the temptation and fall.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:06 AM #29
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Such hostility Umami. Why so mad?
Ran into a guy standing on a milk carton at the grocery store today telling people who would listen that they're going to hell. And people were listening. And it made me angry.

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yeah, do you? He was either ignorant of the full name of the tree or being disingenuous, either way I thought I'd clear things up. Dropping the "of good and evil" significantly alters the dynamics of the temptation and fall.
You completely missed my point. Or maybe you just made it.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:04 AM #30
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Good luck with what?

I CONCEDE NOTHING

If God and heaven exist and in fact made me in his image, then he understands that I cannot be a sheep in his flock. If he condemns me for not swallowing a dogma I cannot agree with because of the way he made me, he's an *** and I don't want in.

If God and heaven exist and I spend my life helping people, expanding human knowledge and overall making the world a better place for everyone, and he doesn't send me on up to heaven for not swallowing the savior bit or faith bait, I don't want to go. Everyone worth spending eternity with will be in Hell anyway.

Either way, you can take your proselytizing and shove it. I have no desire to join an autocracy headed by an imaginary being.
You're fully entitled to your opinion and free will as God has given you. You look at his value in people too low however. Yes, the Bible uses imagery of sheep in the flock, but the extent at which he cares and loves for each individual is described in such more detail and compassion, viewing it as "I'm a sheep" alone doesn't do it justice. Living for yourself and only finding peace in "your" contribution to the earth during the course of your life without ever loving the person who created you and gave you the ability to do those things is a pretty empty life. Doesn't take more than one read thru revelations to know fully that even if your favorite people were in hell, you would not enjoy it at all to say the least.
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:13 PM #31
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You're fully entitled to your opinion and free will as God has given you.
Except we really don't have free will, by current understandings. We have no explanation for the origin of our thoughts. If we can't control what causes our thoughts, we can;t control ourselves, thus negating the notion of free will.

This is without mentioning the hypocritical viewpoint that God knows all and knows every choice we will make and knew we would make those choices before he even made mankind. That is not free will. That is determinism.

And, of course, I could bring up the fact the if God is all knowing, he knowingly cast us in to living lives of sin and knowingly created sin and evil in the first place (being that he has been around before anything else ever existed).

We don't have a choice in the world we are born in to. We don't have a choice to be born with or without sin. We also don't have a choice to make the decisions we make, as thoughts seemingly originate out of thin air. Free will is a false notion.

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You look at his value in people too low however. Yes, the Bible uses imagery of sheep in the flock, but the extent at which he cares and loves for each individual is described in such more detail and compassion, viewing it as "I'm a sheep" alone doesn't do it justice. Living for yourself and only finding peace in "your" contribution to the earth during the course of your life without ever loving the person who created you and gave you the ability to do those things is a pretty empty life.
Funny that you would call an atheist who contributes much to society and those around him/her as a person who lives an empty life. You're going to tell me that a homeless man that feeds off the contributions of others, but believes in God has a more fulfilling life than someone like Bill Gates whom has contributed hundreds of millions of dollars in aid? What a twisted sense of morality.

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Doesn't take more than one read thru revelations to know fully that even if your favorite people were in hell, you would not enjoy it at all to say the least.
Please quote the scripture which says this.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:04 PM #32
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Except we really don't have free will, by current understandings. We have no explanation for the origin of our thoughts. If we can't control what causes our thoughts, we can;t control ourselves, thus negating the notion of free will.

This is without mentioning the hypocritical viewpoint that God knows all and knows every choice we will make and knew we would make those choices before he even made mankind. That is not free will. That is determinism.

And, of course, I could bring up the fact the if God is all knowing, he knowingly cast us in to living lives of sin and knowingly created sin and evil in the first place (being that he has been around before anything else ever existed).

We don't have a choice in the world we are born in to. We don't have a choice to be born with or without sin. We also don't have a choice to make the decisions we make, as thoughts seemingly originate out of thin air. Free will is a false notion.

Funny that you would call an atheist who contributes much to society and those around him/her as a person who lives an empty life. You're going to tell me that a homeless man that feeds off the contributions of others, but believes in God has a more fulfilling life than someone like Bill Gates whom has contributed hundreds of millions of dollars in aid? What a twisted sense of morality.

Please quote the scripture which says this.
Treghc,

Free will vs. Pre-destination - It's possible for both to exist. God knows everything that will come. So he knew I was going to be responding to you in exactly the fashion that I am, wearing what I'm wearing right now, in the place I am right now, even right down to the very millisecond. However, I also decided/wanted to do so in this way at this time. Although God knew I was going to do it before I even did it, I still "chose" to do it. He didn't come down with a cosmic force and grab my fingers and "force" me to type this response to you and feel exactly how I feel. It's not even a dichotomy, but a complete overlapping of the other in harmony with one another. He knows the plot, we don't.

I agree completely on the statement of we don't have choice to be born with or without sin, because we are all by definition sinners.

The last part on morality depends on what you consider to be the meaning of life. If in fact you believe that there is no life after death and that we are simply nothing more than matter and meaningless specks on this revolving globe, what motives do you have for contributing anything to society? Shouldn't we just live selfishly and chase happiness? Where do you get a sense of what is right and wrong? How do you measure love? How do you measure passion? How do you explain why nothing in this world ever fulfills you and is fleeting? You can't, other than falling on the simply truth that everyone knows deep down there is something much more to this universe than simply what you can see, that part of you longs for something that this world will never satisfy.

Also regarding hell - Open a Bible and turn to revelations and read thru, talks plenty about end times and hell in there. If you are looking for a particular verse let me know.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:17 PM #33
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no, I don't, because you've conveniently left half of the name of the tree out of your post. It's the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before the fall, man was innocent, could not comprehend the concept evil.
They were incapable of understanding the ramifications of their actions but were expected to obey? Sounds like telling a 5 year old not to eat poison but leaving it on the floor and then blaming them if they die. This god fellow doesn't sound very smart.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:33 PM #34
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Poison on the floor isn't exactly the best analogy. Seeing how he didn't strike them down the very second they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's more like hey don't jump on the bed cause I told you not to and the kids going why not it's fun dad. All comes back to free will and God giving man the power to choose. God even killed an animal for them to clothe themselves and said a savior would be coming to mend the origin of sin.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:39 PM #35
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Poison on the floor isn't exactly the best analogy. Seeing how he didn't strike them down the very second they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's more like hey don't jump on the bed cause I told you not to and the kids going why not it's fun dad. All comes back to free will and God giving man the power to choose. God even killed an animal for them to clothe themselves and said a savior would be coming to mend the origin of sin.
If the kid knew it was fun he was able to comprehend the consequences of his actions.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:41 PM #36
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Treghc,

Free will vs. Pre-destination - It's possible for both to exist. God knows everything that will come. So he knew I was going to be responding to you in exactly the fashion that I am, wearing what I'm wearing right now, in the place I am right now, even right down to the very millisecond. However, I also decided/wanted to do so in this way at this time. Although God knew I was going to do it before I even did it, I still "chose" to do it. He didn't come down with a cosmic force and grab my fingers and "force" me to type this response to you and feel exactly how I feel. It's not even a dichotomy, but a complete overlapping of the other in harmony with one another. He knows the plot, we don't.

I agree completely on the statement of we don't have choice to be born with or without sin, because we are all by definition sinners.

The last part on morality depends on what you consider to be the meaning of life. If in fact you believe that there is no life after death and that we are simply nothing more than matter and meaningless specks on this revolving globe, what motives do you have for contributing anything to society? Shouldn't we just live selfishly and chase happiness? Where do you get a sense of what is right and wrong? How do you measure love? How do you measure passion? How do you explain why nothing in this world ever fulfills you and is fleeting? You can't, other than falling on the simply truth that everyone knows deep down there is something much more to this universe than simply what you can see, that part of you longs for something that this world will never satisfy.
Without multiple (by multiple I mean endless) realities someone can't know what you're going to do with certainty all the time. If they do know ahead of time (all the time) then you do not have free will. You only think you do. The reason for this is that no matter what happens or what you think you're deciding it's already set in motion and you didn't truly choose anything. You're stuck on a rail with the belief that you're steering the boat.

What motivates anyone to contribute to society and not live selfishly is the fact that if we all lived only for ourselves we'd be dead. If mankind didn't work together we'd have been eaten by predators, starved or succumb to the elements before we ever got the whole civilization thing down. If we all lived for just ourselves now, society would break down and chaos would ensue. Being a rational person who thinks for himself I know this and thus have decided to contribute. Empathy it seems was a useful trait for animals such as ourselves (pack animals) so it was passed on through generations. Long before any religious text were written we knew to work together in order to survive.

How does anyone measure emotions? They're completely subjective. Plenty of things in this world fulfill me. If nothing did I'd kill myself. Yes there is more to the universe than we know or can see. But instead of claiming to know it's this fairytale or that one I choose look to science in order to try and understand as much as possible. Beyond that the only reasonable thing to do is say I don't know but maybe future generations will based off of the work of the previous ones. If someone showed me how gravity actually works and what really goes on in the quantum world I could die happy and completely content right now. But if I never find out (I probably won't in my lifetime) it's enough for me to live, love and inquire. So don't presume that everyone is unsatisfied just because you are. I do not have a God shaped hole in my heart.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:49 PM #37
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If the kid knew it was fun he was able to comprehend the consequences of his actions.
They knew it would be disobeying God and that death would be put on them if they touched it though. God told them that, therefore they knew the consequence.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:53 PM #38
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They knew it would be disobeying God and that death would be put on them if they touched it though. God told them that, therefore they knew the consequence.
If you have no concept of death, you can't comprehend it.
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:08 PM #39
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The problem is we dont know **** about what Adam and eve knew or what their character was. We have a short tale of their down fall and a ****load of speculation.

For all we know Adam and eve didn't see a dualistic world. They merely acted in pure causality. By eating this apple they introduced suffering pain agony and death because a shift in perspective allowed them to see them as bad.

There is some speculation based on the name of the tree.
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:17 PM #40
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Treghc,

Free will vs. Pre-destination - It's possible for both to exist. God knows everything that will come. So he knew I was going to be responding to you in exactly the fashion that I am, wearing what I'm wearing right now, in the place I am right now, even right down to the very millisecond. However, I also decided/wanted to do so in this way at this time. Although God knew I was going to do it before I even did it, I still "chose" to do it. He didn't come down with a cosmic force and grab my fingers and "force" me to type this response to you and feel exactly how I feel. It's not even a dichotomy, but a complete overlapping of the other in harmony with one another. He knows the plot, we don't.

I agree completely on the statement of we don't have choice to be born with or without sin, because we are all by definition sinners.

The last part on morality depends on what you consider to be the meaning of life. If in fact you believe that there is no life after death and that we are simply nothing more than matter and meaningless specks on this revolving globe, what motives do you have for contributing anything to society? Shouldn't we just live selfishly and chase happiness? Where do you get a sense of what is right and wrong? How do you measure love? How do you measure passion? How do you explain why nothing in this world ever fulfills you and is fleeting? You can't, other than falling on the simply truth that everyone knows deep down there is something much more to this universe than simply what you can see, that part of you longs for something that this world will never satisfy.

Also regarding hell - Open a Bible and turn to revelations and read thru, talks plenty about end times and hell in there. If you are looking for a particular verse let me know.
What the **** is all this? Dude proving god is easy. Sun goes up the the sun goes back down. Never a miscommunication. Can't explain that.
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:38 PM #41
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Apart from a new heart, all that refuse to believe in the works of Jesus will not be saved. Stubborn like Pharaoh and becoming your own God or making something other than God your god and worshipping that instead. Don't make God out to be some violent abusive father while he carelessly sits in a lawn chair in the front yard while his child runs out into oncoming traffic. God gives you chances to come to Him in love and repentance and you refusing Him is your choice, which he foresees, What melts the ice hardens the clay. We don't save ourselves he save us.
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:39 PM #42
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Ran into a guy standing on a milk carton at the grocery store today telling people who would listen that they're going to hell. And people were listening. And it made me angry.



You completely missed my point. Or maybe you just made it.
Your point was I shouldnt correct someone when they spread misinformation?

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They were incapable of understanding the ramifications of their actions but were expected to obey? Sounds like telling a 5 year old not to eat poison but leaving it on the floor and then blaming them if they die. This god fellow doesn't sound very smart.
Like keeping household cleaners under the sink but making a point to remind your children not to play with them. They may not understand the danger involved but they should understand that their parents love them and dont want to see them harmed so if they tell you not to drink the drano, dont drink the drano.
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