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Old 06-07-2012, 02:46 PM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by van457 View Post
Woops, my bad. I was thinkin about the furious barrel back.
May want to actually edit your other post so no misinformation is unintentionally passed on.
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:51 PM #86
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Hey everybody,

Check my original post in this thread. I modded my spare G4 bolt today and have results and pictures posted there. This is a legit mod!!! I wasn't worried about efficiency testing so I just used the stock barrel for everything. For efficiency testing I will bore match to the paint to get the best results possible. The tests I did were "proof of concept" that shortening the bolt tail really worked. There is no doubt that this is legit. Considering that my G4 used to need 180psi at 280fps and now needs 160psi at 280fps there is no doubt an improvement in efficiency as well.

If anyone has an extra G4 bolt, I want it! I think I will leave the currently modded one where it is and test for a while, but then I want to mod another bolt even further/shorter.

Has anyone ever x-ringed their DP/Techt? I think that the o-ring right behind the breach and the bolt o-ring can be x-rings since they stay in constant contact.
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Last edited by rkenders : 06-07-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:07 PM #87
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Ok so this mod seems to have been ligitimized right... Has anyone contacted techt about this? If so they would have to "upgrade" the bolts and stops to a V2 right? They should offer that as an exchange for customers having previously perchased the engine...
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:07 PM #88
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Paintball QD and air tool QD sizes are usually different - at least the kind of air tool QD that is common around here. But you can also get 1/8" NPT air tool QDs to replace the paintball one on the adapter, or use a 1/4" to 1/8" NPT adapter.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:14 PM #89
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Good info rkenders,Thanks.My g3's already run at 145 psi. but I need to mod stem on g4 bolthead.

Last edited by van457 : 06-07-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:47 PM #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y0da900 View Post
Paintball QD and air tool QD sizes are usually different - at least the kind of air tool QD that is common around here. But you can also get 1/8" NPT air tool QDs to replace the paintball one on the adapter, or use a 1/4" to 1/8" NPT adapter.

Quick disconnects (QD's) for air tools are a lot larger and intended to be more rugged since they will actually be attached to something doing work while being used. The paintball QD's have 1/8" NPT threads so all you need is a very common adapter fitting to go from 1/8" NPT to 1/4" NPT and your compressor can run your gun directly into the reg fitting. I suggest that you use some kind of inline filter at the gun as shop compressors tend to spit water, oil and junk. The oil in compressors can be petroleum based so not so good for your gun!


Quote:
Originally Posted by van457 View Post
Good info rkenders,Thanks.My g3's already run at 145 psi. but I need to mod stem on g4 bolthead.
Thanks! This is your idea as far as I know. I just documented it better and gave credibility to your work so kudo's back at ya!!!! Your G3's are getting 145psi with the bolt tail mod only or with the added dump chamber as well?

An added dump chamber that's adjustable out the back of the back cap is "in the works" too.
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Last edited by rkenders : 06-07-2012 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:07 PM #91
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Thanks rkenders, but must give credit to shru and others for this mostly,I shortened stem to compensate for moving bolt stop forward.But, external air lines did drop pressure. Keep us posted on air can mod,but don't blow yourself up! Let's keep the brain stormin flowin'. Thanks.

Last edited by van457 : 06-09-2012 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:09 PM #92
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First post looks good rkenders!

It's hard for me to see, from what point you are measuring the total length of the tail... where are you resting it? Against the back of the bolt head itself?

Or did you simply measure back from the edge of the tail the .026?

Thanks buddy! I'm going to attempt it too this weekend.


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Old 06-07-2012, 05:54 PM #93
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good job rken!
But careful in shaving off more from the bolt tail coz my modded bolt tail is around 0.850. When i did the mod and came across justicexd post below, i immediately checked how far forward would the bolt tip be to start venting down the barrel.
To check this, I tried with the modded bolt in the gun, without the back cap and without airing up the gun.
I started by pushing the modded bolt through the breech in small increments and then blowing air thru the dump chamber and noting where the air vents. My reasoning is when the bolt stem is still "riding" the bolt stop o-ring, then the air vents out thru the inline reg area, but if the bolt stem is not sealed by the bolt stop o-ring, then the air vents down the barrel.
And i found out that at a bolt stop modded length of .850, air vents down the barrel when the bolt tip is around 1-2mm from the forward edge of the breech looking down the feedneck.
But i rechecked it with the gun aired up, dry fired a couple of shots with a piece of tissue on top of the feedneck and didnt notice any blowback.


Quote:
Originally Posted by justicexd View Post
Yes, there's a gap between the bolt stem and stop when the marker fires.

That's also the reason why people need to be careful not to take too much off the stem or the marker will end up fire before the bolt is far enough forward.
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:38 PM #94
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I wonder if the bolt stem were enlarged till it equaled the remaining space left at rear of bolthead how much flow would be gained then? And corresponding pressure drop? Bigger hole for dump chamber outlet. It never stops.....
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Old 06-08-2012, 01:14 AM #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD_B4LL3R View Post
It's hard for me to see, from what point you are measuring the total length of the tail... where are you resting it? Against the back of the bolt head itself? Or did you simply measure back from the edge of the tail the .026?.
I put one blade of the ID side of the calipers on the back flat area of the bolt and then used the point of the ID blade and lined it up with the back edge of the bolt tail to get the measurements shown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by echo echo View Post
good job rken!
But careful in shaving off more from the bolt tail coz my modded bolt tail is around 0.850. When i did the mod and came across justicexd post below, i immediately checked how far forward would the bolt tip be to start venting down the barrel.
To check this, I tried with the modded bolt in the gun, without the back cap and without airing up the gun.
I started by pushing the modded bolt through the breech in small increments and then blowing air thru the dump chamber and noting where the air vents. My reasoning is when the bolt stem is still "riding" the bolt stop o-ring, then the air vents out thru the inline reg area, but if the bolt stem is not sealed by the bolt stop o-ring, then the air vents down the barrel.
And i found out that at a bolt stop modded length of .850, air vents down the barrel when the bolt tip is around 1-2mm from the forward edge of the breech looking down the feedneck.
But i rechecked it with the gun aired up, dry fired a couple of shots with a piece of tissue on top of the feedneck and didnt notice any blowback.
Thanks for the kudos! Good point about not going too far on the tail. I understand your test. The idea was to see how far forward the bolt could go before the spool valve opened. You want the bolt tip to reach the front most o-ring so you don't blow air up the ball stack when the spool valve opens. I think why you had no air blow up the feed neck when dry firing is because the bolt travels forward rather quickly (a few milliseconds...unlike your manual blow down the dump chamber test). The effective result is that there is very little time for air to blow up the feed neck before the bolt seats in the front most o-ring. It may be that the air traveling inside the gun once the spool opens never actually reaches the bolt face before the bolt seals into the front o-ring. As you know...timing is everything.

On a side note...
I was wondering about bolt alignment inside the gun. The G3 and G4 with the Techt bolt have 4 dynamic o-rings. The bolt keeps constant contact with only 2 of them. IE: The o-ring on the bolt and the one before the breach. When the unmodded bolt is traveling forward it maintains contact with 3 o-rings at any point in its travel. With the shortened bolt tail, I'm wondering if there us a small distance where the bolt is almost all the way forward, but only riding in 2 o-rings that are very close together. Would the distance between the bolt o-ring and the breach o-ring allow the bolt to shift out of alignment?


Quote:
Originally Posted by van457 View Post
I shortened stem to compensate for moving bolt stop forward.But, external air lines did drop pressure. Keep us posted on air can mod,but don't blow your'e self up! Let's keep the brain stormin flowin' people. Thanks.
OK so it looks like to get the extra 15-20psi that I need a larger dump chamber? It may be that going beyond the .077" that I took off the bolt tail may not make a significant difference. I think keeping the bolt open too long may create inefficiencies similar to turning up your dwell excessively. I have the APE OLED board in my gun which has a setting for dwell (open time) and a setting for return time (how quickly after full open to close the bolt). I'm sure that setting can be used to moderate an overly short bolt tail. For people with stock boards, it's not an option. I think the optimal bolt tail length has to clear the bolt stop o-ring sufficiently that the opening is completely unrestricted. I'm thinking a plug in the end of the bolt tail that smooths out air flow may help some too. That's in the works too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by van457 View Post
I wonder if the bolt stem were enlarged till it equaled the remaining space left at rear of bolthead how much flow would be gained then? And corresponding pressure drop? Bigger hole for dump chamber outlet. It never stops.....
Great minds must think alike! I was wondering about this too. The stock spool valve design is far more open than is the Techt design. I think you would lose all the benefits of the Techt design in order to "open" the spool valve more. My thought was to mill out the bolt stop for the next size up o-ring and then make the bolt tail a little larger in diameter to fit the new o-ring. I looked at it closely and decided that considering how close the space is inside the gun that enlarging the bolt tail would only restrict air flow around it and through the bolt. Another thought I had was to go back to the stock bolt and mill the spool o-ring seat a little so it would fit a little looser and then drill out the inside of the stem and drill several holes through it so that the back cap stem didn't displace so much air volume. You lose 10-15% of the dump chamber to the stock bolt/valve design.
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Last edited by rkenders : 06-08-2012 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:40 AM #96
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If anyone wants their G4 or G3 spec R Techt bolt modded and doesn't have the ability to do it themselves, PM me and I'll do it for you. Now that I have done mine and worked out an easy way that works well, it's really straight forward and quick. I'll do the .077" like I have done on mine. You pay shipping both ways. I wont take in any straight G3 Techt bolts for modification since I have no way to test them.

After I do the dump chamber mod, I may offer that too, but it's more involved and requires parts. I will be going for functionality more than good looks at least as a prototype.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:40 AM #97
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Thanks for info rkenders. I bought my son's first g3 when price first dropped from 450 to 350 and modded them at that time.Been reading stuff on here forever, finaly decided to put my 2 cents in. I feel bigger stems my have some benefit but like any changes you got to experiment.But looking at stem/bolt I don't think you could go to far.My g4 bolt measures .745 behind oring, it's finished down some for a better fitting oring.Stem measures .336. Usng piexr2,(or however it's spelled) .745 sqed. equals .555x3.14 equals 1.742 AREA in inches at back of bolt. stem-.336 sqed equals .1128x3.14 equals .35 AREA in inches for stem.Have to factor in area of three "spokes" at rear. Maybe somebody out there could check my math. You can use all the computer models etc. out there, but in the end common sense and what is between your ears is what matters.Keep at it rkenders, You da man!
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:55 AM #98
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Does anybody think a pointed cap on end of stem would smooth air flow/efficency as air dumped out of chamber?Maybe try carving a pencil eraser and stickin in there to experiment. I know minimum gain,but attention to details.On second thought, would protrude into dump hole opening, bad idea.

Last edited by van457 : 06-08-2012 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:29 AM #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by van457 View Post
Does anybody think a pointed cap on end of stem would smooth air flow/efficency as air dumped out of chamber?Maybe try carving a pencil eraser and stickin in there to experiment. I know minimum gain,but attention to details.
I think it will make a small difference. Like you said ... attention to details. It's on my list of stuff to do. I'm planning on making a small acrylic bullet shaped piece to put in the bolt tail. I think blue locktite will hold it in place well enough, but also allow removal with a little effort if needed. Techt has made a bullet shaped plug for their Proto Reflex bolt tail to stop the chirping noise, but I wonder if it has any other effect.


Back cap stem...
I was thinking further about this and thought carefully drilling/tapping a 10/32 hole in the center of the back cap stem and right through the spool valve end. Then cut off the stem part from the cap and valve end. Run a piece of 10/32 all thread into the back cap and locktite it in place. Put a 10/32 nut behind the valve piece to lock it in place. You could adjust the length from back cap to valve piece simply by threading the valve piece in and out. This modification would also allow for more volume in the dump chamber. This idea has 2 purposes. The first is to make more dump chamber volume and the second is to make it possible to modify the spool valve open point. If the valve opened earlier, the result could be similar to the Techt bolt tail mod. I can't do this mod with my back cap since I have tapped it for a gauge, but if someone wants to donate a G4 back cap I will try it out and present my results. I also need the G4 stock bolt. I replaced mine with the Techt bolt and promptly lost the stock bolt.
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Last edited by rkenders : 06-08-2012 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:05 AM #100
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I think I got it. You mean on stock bolt and cap, right? Sounds like a good idea, alignment of assembled unit (centering)critical though. What about sharpie cap mod and grinding stem thinner? No adjustment in oring location though. Your idea sounds good.All my stock g3 and g4 backcaps have sharpie mods so I'll prob. leave them as is. May try grinding/polishing stem to reduce stem volume though. Keep the wheels spinnin.With paintball guns, ALWAYS THINK CONSISTENCY, this equals accuracy. When you fire your gun you want it to do the EXACT SAME THING every time. Take out all the variables you can.I know you guys know this stuff, so I'm kinda preaching to the choir here.The following isn't really mod related. EXAMPLE:You just lubed your spool valve gun. You take it to the chrono and it's kind of all over the place.The ref has you turn down velocity becuse you had some high spikes.Now your on the field shooting 260ish against people shooting 280's. you're prob out ranged. Solution: upon lubing spool valve gun, with barrel removed dry fire about 100 shots or 1000 psi or so to distribute/expell any excess lube. Gun should then be more consistant at chrono. I know most of you know this, just giving example.

Last edited by van457 : 06-08-2012 at 07:33 AM. Reason: added info
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:34 AM #101
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Yeah on the stock back cap, cut off the stem from between the cap and spool part and replace it with a piece of 10/32 all thread. It would have the strength and rigidity of the much larger aluminum stem. If the 10/32 all thread was long enough, your pen cap mod would thread right onto it. I would be careful about removing diameter from the existing stem area as you will take away rigidity. That is why I suggested drilling out the inside of the stem area. Allignment would have to be pretty close to perfect. I don't think that would be difficult to achieve though. Set your drill press table to exactly 90 degrees from the drill bit in 2 directions and then drill dead center. The tap will follow the drilled out hole so it should stay centered. The end result will be close to perfect alignment.
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Last edited by rkenders : 06-08-2012 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:37 AM #102
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Yes, I like that. One rod for sharpie cap and stem.Drill cap first, then cut stem.Maybe at stem part with oring make it come to a point where rod enters on rear side to smooth flow.With high performance car engines it's all about high/smooth flow, polished heads, headers etc.Same thing with paintball guns.It's all about moving air/gas etc. at a smooth and rapid pace.Attained operating pressure of 145 p.s.i. on d.p. f8 thinking like this.

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Old 06-08-2012, 07:58 AM #103
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Cone shape behind valve piece...

I meant to sat that too! We are definitely on the same wave length here. LOL. I was thinking of a cone shaped aluminum piece that was threaded inside that would lock the valve piece in place and would stream line air flow around the back side of the valve. I guess if you really wanted to get anal about it, the threaded area that is between the back cap and the valve piece could be filed smooth to remove the threads for better air flow.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:06 AM #104
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Or for exposed threaded area use shrink wrap.Not perfect, but simple and easy.I don't think you want to reduce 10/32 rod size any.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:10 AM #105
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Rkenders, If we worked at a paintball manufacturer, We'd drive them insane! I think I drank to much coffee this morning.....
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