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Old 08-08-2012, 05:20 PM #211
rkenders
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Originally Posted by CA_Tectonics View Post
*looks at thread title....looks at forum section* Fixed ^^^ for ya.

Ha ha...very funny!

Well I modded my Drone valve and while I was hopeful that I would get some sort of improvement, actually I couldn't feel or measure a difference. With or without cones on either side or both sides of the valve the gun operated identically. I tapped a hole through the center of the valve and lock-tited a piece of stainless steel all thread into it. I then made several different cone shapes with different diameters and lengths and threaded them onto the the ends of the all-thread. I had just the all-thread in the valve and chrono'd in the high 280's/low 290's which is where it shoots unmodded. Then I put a single cone on the back of the valve and chrono'd again...same results. Then I put a cone on the front of the valve and chrono'd...same results. I made sure to NOT do anything other than remove the valve and install a cone. I didn't relube anything or change any board or reg settings. Anyway, Macdev confirmed what I already suspected. You can't have the best guns on the planet without careful tweaking and tuning to get the best results. Pretty much the Drone DX is already perfect. I made a cone that was long enough to make it to the bolt face and it made no difference than a shorter cone. Short cones, long cones, no cones, no difference. Ah well it was fun to do despite NOT making a difference.

No harm done! I ran a screw in either end of the valve and lock-tited them in. The hole is still available and perhaps I may come up with some other clever mod to try that will need it later.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:38 PM #212
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So how is this all relevant to the g4? I dont mean to be rude but this is the DP section and this thread concerns techt bolts for DP guns.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:40 PM #213
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Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
Ha ha...very funny!

Well I modded my Drone valve and while I was hopeful that I would get some sort of improvement, actually I couldn't feel or measure a difference. With or without cones on either side or both sides of the valve the gun operated identically. I tapped a hole through the center of the valve and lock-tited a piece of stainless steel all thread into it. I then made several different cone shapes with different diameters and lengths and threaded them onto the the ends of the all-thread. I had just the all-thread in the valve and chrono'd in the high 280's/low 290's which is where it shoots unmodded. Then I put a single cone on the back of the valve and chrono'd again...same results. Then I put a cone on the front of the valve and chrono'd...same results. I made sure to NOT do anything other than remove the valve and install a cone. I didn't relube anything or change any board or reg settings. Anyway, Macdev confirmed what I already suspected. You can't have the best guns on the planet without careful tweaking and tuning to get the best results. Pretty much the Drone DX is already perfect. I made a cone that was long enough to make it to the bolt face and it made no difference than a shorter cone. Short cones, long cones, no cones, no difference. Ah well it was fun to do despite NOT making a difference.

No harm done! I ran a screw in either end of the valve and lock-tited them in. The hole is still available and perhaps I may come up with some other clever mod to try that will need it later.

buut you didn't try playing with other factors.. perhaps with the cone in place you have optimized airflow allowing you to now drop your dwell lower without a decrease in performance.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:43 PM #214
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Bummer, that sucks.I thought you'd get some kind of performance increase
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:03 PM #215
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Originally Posted by FrmrSpecialist View Post
buut you didn't try playing with other factors.. perhaps with the cone in place you have optimized airflow allowing you to now drop your dwell lower without a decrease in performance.
That's a good point! It may make a difference. I still have everything so after this weekend I'll try some more stuff and see what happens. I also want to make a new cone that is much larger. I had 3/8" dowel which works fine on the bolt side, but is too small for the back side of the valve. I will make a new cone that fits the back of the valve better out of larger dowel.

On the subject of not being G4 or Techt related...try to be just a tiny bit open minded. The entire idea came from a modified G4 that had cones on the valve. Van457 in this very thread posted information on the mod he did to his DP guns.
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Last edited by rkenders : 08-09-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:05 AM #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkenders

That's a good point! It may make a difference. I still have everything so after this weekend I'll try some more stuff and see what happens. I also want to make a new cone that is much larger. I had 3/8" dowel which works fine on the bolt side, but is too small for the back side of the valve. I will make a new cone that fits the back of the valve better out of larger dowel.

On the subject of not being G4 or Techt related...try to be just a tiny bit open minded. The entire idea came from a modified G4 that had cones on the valve. Van457 in this very thread posted information on the mod he did to his DP guns.
Sure we are open minded but knowing the outcome of your mod for a non DP marker has not one single benefit for us. It's not like we're gunna put that **** in our fusion.

You should post this in the macdev forum for real, they will care more than we do.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:24 PM #217
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Sure we are open minded but knowing the outcome of your mod for a non DP marker has not one single benefit for us. It's not like we're gunna put that **** in our fusion.

You should post this in the macdev forum for real, they will care more than we do.

I have a novel idea...create your own thread where you come up with something new and novel or at least create the method that is easy to follow for what someone else has discovered as I have done. Then you can post whatever you want in YOUR thread and not hate on my thread where I posted a passing bit of information on an experiment I tried that didn't work out. Regardless of what gun it was done on. The truth be told, spool valve guns have a lot of concepts in common and what can be done on a DP can be done on Proto or MD or whatever spool. So rather than stating your obvious lack of ingenuity or creativity, keep your pointless opinions to yourself and post HELPFUL info instead. Your Fusion by the way, may very well be benefited by a mod done on some other manufacturers gun. Do you really think that Techt designed the L7 bolt on the G4 first and then adapted it to everything else? They probably went for the market that was going to make them the most money (IE: Proto) and then adapted it to the G3 and G4. So as a DP owner you actually benefit from work and mods done on a non-DP gun. This thread still holds to it's core intent of being a G3 and G4 thread. What I did with my Drone was an attempt to adapt that same thought to a different gun platform. Van457 has produced a legitimate mod that will work on any DP spool and many other spools too.

So rather than griping about my efforts on an MD gun which could have benefited your DP gun and mine, how about giving me ideas to try that would actually possibly produce positive results. My goal since the Drones valve is so simple and a separate part from the back cap was to try several things that could be adapted to the DP platform, but since it didn't yield any real results as of yet, then further effort needs to be done. Amongst things I have in the works is an expanded dump chamber which I will hopefully post results for in the near future. So how about ideas that can be implemented and tried out rather than complaining?

sincerly,
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:41 PM #218
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sincerly,
Someone who actually experiments and tries to come up with ideas that work!
Well said, keep doing what your doing and dont listen to anyone that puts you down for trying new things. Try comparing the automag bolt system to the techt bolt.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:43 PM #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
I have a novel idea...create your own thread where you come up with something new and novel or at least create the method that is easy to follow for what someone else has discovered as I have done. Then you can post whatever you want in YOUR thread and not hate on my thread where I posted a passing bit of information on an experiment I tried that didn't work out. Regardless of what gun it was done on. The truth be told, spool valve guns have a lot of concepts in common and what can be done on a DP can be done on Proto or MD or whatever spool. So rather than stating your obvious lack of ingenuity or creativity, keep your pointless opinions to yourself and post HELPFUL info instead. Your Fusion by the way, may very well be benefited by a mod done on some other manufacturers gun. Do you really think that Techt designed the L7 bolt on the G4 first and then adapted it to everything else? They probably went for the market that was going to make them the most money (IE: Proto) and then adapted it to the G3 and G4. So as a DP owner you actually benefit from work and mods done on a non-DP gun. This thread still holds to it's core intent of being a G3 and G4 thread. What I did with my Drone was an attempt to adapt that same thought to a different gun platform. Van457 has produced a legitimate mod that will work on any DP spool and many other spools too.

So rather than griping about my efforts on an MD gun which could have benefited your DP gun and mine, how about giving me ideas to try that would actually possibly produce positive results. My goal since the Drones valve is so simple and a separate part from the back cap was to try several things that could be adapted to the DP platform, but since it didn't yield any real results as of yet, then further effort needs to be done. Amongst things I have in the works is an expanded dump chamber which I will hopefully post results for in the near future. So how about ideas that can be implemented and tried out rather than complaining?

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Somebody is grumpy.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:14 PM #220
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Somebody is grumpy.
Just towards those who act like tools and complain about progress.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:26 PM #221
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I personally am really grateful for this thread so to anyone who has a problem with whatever direction this thread goes has an easy solution.. Check out a different one.. And while your there let me know if it comes up with better stuff than this one has brought to light.. And since u won't find that do me a favor and look down the barrel of your gun and pop off a few rounds and be grateful there are guys like these that figure out things to help get someone like me a much more efficient G4.. So I appreciate all the time y'all have spent getting this all worked out and sharing it with all of us..

With that said has anyone heard if the upgraded bolt engine is available yet?? I've tried emailing Todd and Tim from tech t but haven't gotten a response yet so I was hoping somebody knew cause I'm so stoked to get one..
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:16 AM #222
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Thanks for the support everyone! It's definitely annoying to get slammed for actually trying to figure out things that will improve other people guns. I don't mind doing the experimenting. That's fun to me!

New Techt bolt...
They are being sloooooooow about things for sure! On August 6 Todd told me that they had the new bolts and that they would be available "soon". Well that was a week ago...
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:09 AM #223
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Yea we've been waiting for techt to release it for quite a while now. I wish I had the capabilities to do it myself.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:11 AM #224
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It takes time, I am sure they are testing atleast a couple of bolts out of the batch to make sure they perform the same the prototype they did. You really dont want them to just assume the product works without testing.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:10 AM #225
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does anyone realize that the bolt rkenders is talking about looks very very very similar to a DP dump valve bolt?


so wouldnt we think that what works for him will also work for us


someone needs to call the baby sitter.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:23 AM #226
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Quote:
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does anyone realize that the bolt rkenders is talking about looks very very very similar to a DP dump valve bolt?


so wouldnt we think that what works for him will also work for us


someone needs to call the baby sitter.
True story.. /\ All these comments about the problems with whats posted for what?? I don't even understand.. How can you complain about people taking there stuff and trying to upgrade it and then bringing their results back to us?? I swear people complain just cause they can.. And because I won't post on this thread without saying this... THANK YOU to all those who contributed to this thread to make this known to the rest of us..
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:31 PM #227
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@rkenders - Thought long and hard about your mod. I think the main reason that you don't see a difference is merely because the effect in the Drone is that much less pronounced. The big reason being that the Drones chamber is that much bigger than that of the G4. I think the effectiveness of the sharpie mod is not really due to the enhanced airflow, but rather because of the volume that the cone occupies. If I have a look at animations of the G4 firing engine, it would seem that the volume of the propelling air by the time it hits the ball, is roughly double what is was at rest. This would mean that the pressure is halved. So anything that you could add to lessen the effect would help. Now in the Drone, the initial chamber is just that much larger that the little volume that you occupy by the cone has a much smaller effect, but I believe it is still there - just much less.

By the way, anyone heard anything from Techt lately?
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:25 AM #228
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@rkenders - Thought long and hard about your mod. I think the main reason that you don't see a difference is merely because the effect in the Drone is that much less pronounced. The big reason being that the Drones chamber is that much bigger than that of the G4. I think the effectiveness of the sharpie mod is not really due to the enhanced airflow, but rather because of the volume that the cone occupies. If I have a look at animations of the G4 firing engine, it would seem that the volume of the propelling air by the time it hits the ball, is roughly double what is was at rest. This would mean that the pressure is halved. So anything that you could add to lessen the effect would help. Now in the Drone, the initial chamber is just that much larger that the little volume that you occupy by the cone has a much smaller effect, but I believe it is still there - just much less.

By the way, anyone heard anything from Techt lately?
You may be right! Perhaps the G4 has such a significant pressure drop from "at rest" to "air down the bolt" that the cone keeps the pressure up inside the bolt better by taking up space and has very little to do with "smoothing out the air flow". My Drones run at 95 and 98 psi where as the stock G4 runs at like 220psi so you are making logical sense.

Drone cone tests...
I haven't had time to make a better set of cones to try again. I want to make both cones much larger. The 3/8" dowel just wasn't large enough to properly fill the front and back of the valve to get the desired "smoothing" effect. Of course I'm assuming that smoothing out the air flow is the "desired" effect when actually it may be keeping the air pressure through the bolt closer to "at rest" pressure. My front cone could stand being long enough to come flush with the bolt face and to be large enough to fill up the back of the bolt better. Admittedly I wasn't being very "scientific" about my cones. I just made several random sized ones and tried them out to see if there was any change.

One of the ideas I have yet to do for the stock G4 is a 2 piece cone for the back of the stem/valve. I will need to make a cone shape that is as large as the mushroom shaped part. Then drill a hole through the center that is the same size as the stem and then cut it in half so it can be glued around the stem. I want to further smooth out the air flow through the bolt. The idea came from putting a cone on the back side of the Drone valve. Of course "smoothing" may not have anything to do with anything. What Bigspe said sounds logical and if it's true, then a cone on the stem, won't help at all and may actually hurt since it will take up dump chamber volume.

I just got a spare G4 back cap and bolt. On the list of things to do is drill out the stem so it's completely hollow and the walls about 1/16" thick. I don't want to damage the integrity of the stem, but I also want to create extra volume inside the gun. I think I can drill out the front of the stem so I can tap it with 1/8" NPT threads and then put a short length of brass pipe in the front of the stem to extend the dump chamber inside the bolt and also provide the cone shape. Then I will drill several holes through the sides of the stem so the extra air space is open to the dump chamber. It will be a little tricky drilling out the stem. The idea is essentially Van457's. He did the cone work and expanding the dump chamber by using a high flow regulator to "fake" a larger dump chamber. Along the same lines is to cut off the stem flush with the back cap and the mushroom and then use a length of 1/8" NPT threaded pipe that extends into the bolt like the cone mod does. It's already hollow for increasing the dump chamber and will allow for another experiment. Van457 experimented with his G4 bolt by drilling holes through it near the back to create mechanical dwell. If I can adjust the position of the mushroom forward or backward a little, I can create mechanical dwell like shortening the Techt bolt tail does.

I have half completed my dump chamber expander that I mentioned earlier. Time has been short and it sits on my bench waiting to be brazed together. It's essentially an empty volume that can thread onto the Techt back cap to add to the dump chamber. Ah well! Too many ideas and not enough time!
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:15 AM #229
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Yea, thats one thing I noticed when I got my first g3, the dump chamber is small.The sharpie mod or cone displaces volume to help make stock bolt a little more effcient.In one of my posts awhile back I asked techt to make a bigger rear back cap to increase volume for the bolt engine, this would decrease op. pressure.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:56 AM #230
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I like the idea of moving the mushroom. That would allow for some serious tuning. Also anything to enlarge the tiny dump chamber of the G4 is a good idea.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:09 PM #231
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I like the idea of moving the mushroom. That would allow for some serious tuning. Also anything to enlarge the tiny dump chamber of the G4 is a good idea.
I want to use a piece of brass pipe that is about 3" long and threaded its entire length. The front would extend through the mushroom and be capped slightly behind the bolt face. The back of the pipe would extend out the back cap so further dump chamber expansion can be added. The pipe would be red locktited into the back cap so no movement can occur once the correct length is determined to clear the bolt face a little. The mushroom would be blue locktited so it can be moved up and down the threads. I need a 1/8 NPT dye so I can thread a piece of brass pipe it's entire length.


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Yea, thats one thing I noticed when I got my first g3, the dump chamber is small.The sharpie mod or cone displaces volume to help make stock bolt a little more effcient.In one of my posts awhile back I asked techt to make a bigger rear back cap to increase volume for the bolt engine, this would decrease op. pressure.
I remember the post. Do you know where I can get larger sized taps and dyes that have small threads? I want to alter my dump chamber expansion so it can threaded onto the Techt back cap, but have a much larger opening for better flow.
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