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Old 05-24-2012, 03:15 PM #22
Eric the Fish
 
 
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Remember one thing most of you have over looked. Islamic law pertains only to Muslim women. Non muslim women have NO rights. Islam allows for nonmuslim women taken in battle/raids etc to used as concubines or as slaves.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:56 PM #23
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Can you explain the context of the 7th century in regards to war and the taking of slaves? What was the purpose of taking a slave, and when was it allowed (in an Islamic context)? The taking of a slave isn't as we think of it today, with workers working fields being whipped my masters. The taking of slaves was NECESSARY, as the men were often killed in battle, leaving the women by themselves with no protection. In addition, can you tell me the rights of slaves in Islam?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery

"Azizah Y. al-Hibri, a professor of Law specializing in Islamic jurisprudence, states that both the Qur'an and Hadith are repeatedly exhorting Muslims to treat the slaves well and that Muhammad showed this both in action and in words.[41] Levy concurs, adding that "cruelty to them was forbidden."[42] Al-Hibri quotes the famous last speech of Muhammad and other hadiths emphasizing that all believers, whether free or enslaved, are siblings.[41] Lewis explains, "the humanitarian tendency of the Qur'an and the early caliphs in the Islamic empire, was to some extent counteracted by other influences,"[1] notably the practice of various conquered people and countries Muslims encountered, especially in provinces previously under Roman law (even the Christianized form of slavery was still harsh in its treatment of slaves). In spite of this, Lewis also states, "Islamic practice still represented a vast improvement on that inherited from antiquity, from Rome, and from Byzantium."

Of all the things you could criticize Islam about, you're going to have the hardest time criticizing it about slavery. Most Muslim scholars believed Islam abolished slavery. The Prophet Muhammad would purchase slaves for the sole purpose of freeing them. Freeing slaves is considered one of the best deeds one could do. Even if you own a slave (not called "slave", but called in the Qur'an "that which your right hand possesses" - meaning those under your PROTECTION), you need to clothe him how you dress and feed him what you eat. It's a sin to force female slaves into prostitution (which was the norm) as well as have sexual relations with her against her will. The Prophet URGED if that you must have sexual relations with one whom your right hand possesses, it's best to FREE HER FIRST and then MARRY HER. Muhammad and his wife Aisha freed over 60 slaves EACH. The companions of the Prophet, during his lifetime, freed 40,000 slaves. How long again did it take the West to free slaves?

Last edited by SupraSuper : 05-24-2012 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:22 AM #24
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The whole abrahamic tradition is rooted in slave revolt.
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:39 PM #25
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Islam has high regard for Women. Do you know the conditions women were living under in pre-Islam Arabia? Baby girls would be buried alive to appease Gods made of dried date pulp. Marriage was considered something of status, but Islam made it a contract that gave women rights. A women couldn't ... wouldn't dare say "no" before, they were like slaves. In contrast to the Western world where divorce was relatively uncommon until modern times; Islam introduced that a woman can initiate a divorce, that she could gain inheritance and wealth through her family. The patriarchal character of pre-Islamic Arabic culture influenced not only the content of the Qur'an and related doctrine, it persists today in the interpretation and application of Islamic dogma. That's why most of you don't understand and don't like Islam. Did you know the Prophet's first wife was like 15 years his senior? And that she was a businesswoman. Both things were considered weird at the time. Scottish historian Watt has called Muhammed a fighter and promoter of Women's Rights. You're trying to compared a man who lived +1400 years ago to the ideals and today's society. Compared him to those he lived around. Compare Muhammed to the thoughts and teaching of 650 AD. Compared him to the ideas and thoughts that people had about life / women / war / law / hygiene / education / economics. You'll see and agree that Muhammed was ahead of his time.

The Geneva war conventions are based on laws of war introduced by Muhammed. Islam denounced aristocratic privilege, rejected hierarchy, and adopted a formula of the career open to the talents. You mentioned something about Muhhamed's marriage earlier; almost all of Muhamemd marriages were political and were based on the Arabian custom. To promote unity, to show people what is right and wrong. Before the Qur'an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygamy and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds, like cattle.

"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one." [Al-Qur'an 4:3]

Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.

In the same chapter i.e. Surat An-Nisa '(The Women) "And you will never be able to be equal [in feeling] between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]. So do not incline completely [toward one] and leave another hanging . And if you amend [your affairs] and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful. " [Al-Qur'an 4:129]

What does this tell you? I hope I've made the concept is marriage a lot more clearer.

Muhammad also said to his followers that "the best amongst you are those who are good to their wives." another one of my most favorite sayings by Muhammed is "Verily, Heaven lies under the feet of our mother."


I know you don't like Islam, and I don't expect to change any of your minds with this, but all I ask is give credit where it's due and fact-check before making a statement about something you don't know or understand.

احمد ديدات الزواج و الطلاق فالإسلام - راااااائع - YouTube
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:17 AM #26
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You can quote scripture all day, but it doesn't matter, the Qua'ran isn't the representative of Islam, Muslims are. When the majority of Muslim men treat women as property then that is a reflection of Islam. When Muslims don't condemn these practices, then they condone them; the same is true with any group of people. In society, all things are black and white.

Quoting the Qua'ran, saying that it doesn't allow these acts and that it is free thinking then then make these harsh laws and penalties and level them at women for the things you say you don't allow is hypocrisy.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:34 PM #27
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the Qua'ran isn't the representative of Islam
lol

Plus you don't know the first thing about how women are treated in Muslim countries because you've never left yor suburban neighborhood. This is evident from the fact that you post a video from Afghanistan (poorest and most volatile country in the world) about the TALIBAN poisoning girls going to school and try and pass that off as a representation of women's rights in Islam, not even realizing the Afghanis who are tryin to send these girls to school are also Muslims, as well as completely disregarding the Muslim countries where women are the majority in Universities by a long shot.

Last edited by SupraSuper : 05-29-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 06-05-2012, 05:38 AM #28
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It is miles and miles and miles ahead of Judaism in every aspect of women's rights.
Strange how that doesn't show up in any of the U.N. data I just browsed through.

Last edited by licence2kill : 06-05-2012 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:02 PM #29
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Thank you for reading the subject
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:45 PM #30
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i didnt read it, ****
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:48 PM #31
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In fact, the rights and responsibilities of a woman are equal to those of a man but they are not necessarily identical. Since men and women are not created identical, they have different physical and emotional qualities, jobs and privileges. This does not mean that women are inferior.


You know, I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with anything the Islamabot copies and pastes here, but this statement is very true.
this! nothing pisses me off more than when people think having a job and earning money is more important than RAISING THE NEXT GENERATION.

but don't feed me bull**** about how women have rights in islam. lol. are men ever expected to cover their faces in any sect?

also i knew a soldier who once waved at a muslim woman, who waved back. her husband promptly started beating her.

crazy how much can be legitimized as long as it is under the banner of religion or culture. sometimes i wish i had a button that would just make everyone go away...
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Old 06-08-2012, 01:49 PM #32
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I believe that the rights given are in accordance with your role rather than being egalitarian.

Women being expected to cover their faces doesn't look that bad to me when I view the polar opposite. Which is women being allowed to wear whatever they want and end up dressing as prostitutes casually. Then, that's freedom right?

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Old 06-08-2012, 02:12 PM #33
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i am not saying western society does not encourage little girls to wear skimpy outfits in order to be pretty, i am not trying to specifically criticize islam. that was just an example of sexism in religion.

my issue, in this instance, is, why do women have to cover their faces and not men? if women are such a distraction to men, why isn't it males wearing blinders? i am a tolerant person but to me it is socially accepted sexism, which occurs in other religious and non religious societies throughout the world.

AT ONE TIME, i think Islam was very "progressive" in the positive sense of the word, and that having to cover yourself, not being allowed to touch other men, etc. was good for a stable society in an unstable world.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:18 PM #34
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I dont mean to make this into a dichotomy more so just an observation.

I suppose my overarching point is that I don't care much for the ,"why do they get to do this but not me" game.

If that makes any sense.

I've always felt that sexism, like most other isms, is just bull**** terminology. Typically used in arguments to gain the moral high ground.

I feel like if you want to express your disdain for differing gender expectations, do by providing reasoning. Calling someone or something a name is not the right way of going about it. Funny too because as much as people say they hate generalizations, that doesn't seem to stop them from using the isms like sexism.


Disclaimer: much of this post is not targeted towards anyone in particular. Mainly just thoughts of mine. Although parts are in response to chodey
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:26 PM #35
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What I don't understand about progressives. Progress is just an intermediate stage. Labelling something as progressive is a lot like saying it is incomplete. The question in my mind is "OK, progress towards what?" because we could very well make progress toward anything. I think the label itself is very flawed. You can very well make progress towards a more authoritarian society as much as an anarchist society depending on which is your goal.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:09 PM #36
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well we have to publicly decry generalizations in this day and age, don't we? otherwise we are called racist, sexist, other isms that you were just talking about...

personally i have no problem with generalizations of race, religion, age, etc. why? because arithmetic doesn't lie. statistics will show you that even though we may be genetically similar, people of different ages, religions, cultures, sexual orientations behave differently. hell you could have access to my spending patterns alone and you could probably figure out im a white male in my 20's that doesn't go to church. there's a reason all societies have elements of what you could call inequalities: we have different expectations based on certain criteria.

just because people are relatively easy to generalize (we pretend we aren't) doesn't mean they should be forced into a role. of course no matter what there are going to be different gender expectations. but how far should they go?

of course its not up to me to say. but being expected to look pretty and feminine seems a lot less abrasive than being expected to cover yourself, not receive formal education, and other things of that nature in Sharia-Islamic countries.

we could play devil's advocate all day and argue about which society is "better" and get nowhere, but i will say women in this country do appear to have more freedom to go about their business and pursue their own goals, which often turns into greater happiness.

as for the progressive term i used it for lack of a better word. I agree it is not a particularly accurate word, as you can progress towards chaos or all sorts of negative things. but i think you are too hung up on the word itself and not the meaning. sometimes you can progress towards a better future even if you are not sure what the goal is. its like running from a fire, you don't care where you end up so long as it isn't so hot.

riveting chat though.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:35 PM #37
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well we have to publicly decry generalizations in this day and age, don't we? otherwise we are called racist, sexist, other isms that you were just talking about...
Very true. It's more important to look good than to do good isn't it?

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personally i have no problem with generalizations of race, religion, age, etc. why? because arithmetic doesn't lie. statistics will show you that even though we may be genetically similar, people of different ages, religions, cultures, sexual orientations behave differently. hell you could have access to my spending patterns alone and you could probably figure out im a white male in my 20's that doesn't go to church. there's a reason all societies have elements of what you could call inequalities: we have different expectations based on certain criteria.
Nor do I. In fact I completely agree with this post. Take it over the politics section and people will foam at the mouth with rage.

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just because people are relatively easy to generalize (we pretend we aren't) doesn't mean they should be forced into a role. of course no matter what there are going to be different gender expectations. but how far should they go?
They differ culture by culture, obviously, I think the question of force is relative to your ends. Does your society aim for order? Roles make sense. Does your society aim for (social) anarchy? Roles make zero sense.

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of course its not up to me to say. but being expected to look pretty and feminine seems a lot less abrasive than being expected to cover yourself, not receive formal education, and other things of that nature in Sharia-Islamic countries.
Being expected to look pretty has also created the desire for scores of women to mutilate their bodies (Plastic surgery, skin tanning, etc) to achieve this Aphroditian ideal. This ideal has been shown to cause severe emotional trauma to women who are not born into the ideal. Hell, just wearing make up is terrible for your face.

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we could play devil's advocate all day and argue about which society is "better" and get nowhere, but i will say women in this country do appear to have more freedom to go about their business and pursue their own goals, which often turns into greater happiness.
"We do not strive for happiness, only the englishman does."

If happiness is your goal. I personally believe that happiness is a mere reward for accomplishing something greater. It is fleeting. To be happy requires misery and struggle. It also requires constant work. Which is why I think happiness isn't much of a thing to strive for.

Then again, as you've already mentioned, children are not raised by their parents. Instead by grandma and day care centers. Is it any wonder that kids do not respect their parents? How could they, they weren't raised by them!

There are advantages and disadvantages of freedom. I think the ultimate answer is not freedom itself, but what we choose to be free to do.

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as for the progressive term i used it for lack of a better word. I agree it is not a particularly accurate word, as you can progress towards chaos or all sorts of negative things. but i think you are too hung up on the word itself and not the meaning. sometimes you can progress towards a better future even if you are not sure what the goal is. its like running from a fire, you don't care where you end up so long as it isn't so hot.

riveting chat though.
At some point you need to set your sights on something. Once the flame has perished there is no sense in continuing to run without direction. Progress for progresses sake will take us nowhere.

It's been nice actually. Level-headed for a change.

Last edited by Iamamartianchurch : 06-08-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:08 PM #38
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this! nothing pisses me off more than when people think having a job and earning money is more important than RAISING THE NEXT GENERATION.

but don't feed me bull**** about how women have rights in islam. lol. are men ever expected to cover their faces in any sect?

also i knew a soldier who once waved at a muslim woman, who waved back. her husband promptly started beating her.

crazy how much can be legitimized as long as it is under the banner of religion or culture. sometimes i wish i had a button that would just make everyone go away...
Women don't have to cover their faces in Islam...



This is my mom. She's a devout Muslim. My father is even more devout. She makes more money than my dad, and decides that she doesn't want to cover her hair. Is she oppressed? Try and tell her that her religion doesn't give her rights and she'll chew your head off.

And I heard a story about a Christian in the south who gets drunk and then beats his wife when he gets home. I guess Christianity is to blame? The story you've been told is most likely bull****. If not her husband is a nutcase and it has nothing to do with Islam.

Last edited by SupraSuper : 06-08-2012 at 07:53 PM.
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