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Old 08-14-2012, 05:56 PM #64
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I'm well verses in the conservative catch-phrase rhetoric and am not particularly interested in your opinion on it (P.S. I have heard it before...) However, I am interested in hearing your justifications for those beliefs and how Christianity fits into it. So:



Where are these morals supposed to come from. I'm assuming that as a Christian your moral system is informed by the Bible and by the Church. If this is true, please demonstrate to me the biblical backing of your moral views and how they lead to your political stance.
Morals, as always, come from your upbringing and experiences. Be that a Christian, Athiest, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or Pastafarian background, it helps define who you are and how you make choices.

As such, I really don't need to "demonstrate" anything to you.
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:02 PM #65
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Welfare isn't working in its current state, that's for sure. I've seen so many instances of drug dealers taking foodstamps its crazy.


Oh and P.S. we have one of the lowest rates of welfare abuse in the world...

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Morals, as always, come from your upbringing and experiences. Be that a Christian, Athiest, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or Pastafarian background, it helps define who you are and how you make choices.

As such, I really don't need to "demonstrate" anything to you.
Lol, you are refusing to explain to me how your christian morals lead to your political beliefs? Isn't that the whole point of this discussion?
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:18 PM #66
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Lol, you are refusing to explain to me how your christian morals lead to your political beliefs? Isn't that the whole point of this discussion?
I'm fairly certain I made a pretty clear point as to how my morals shape my ideology.

So, let's sum up, shall we?

Charity is a pretty big one, and that's fairly religious, and in my case, Biblical. There are plenty more that are self explanitory, but for the most part, I look at what was described as the "most important commandment, which is love."

How about you? Where do your morals come from, and how have they shaped your political viewpoint?
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:33 PM #67
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Welfare is a joke. Why should we be forced to provide support for the weak and feeble?

I am completely opposed to the idea of getting something for doing nothing/being rewarded for degeneracy. Charity is fine but forcing people to give up their money in order to fund welfare is not.
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:35 PM #68
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Lol this is clearly becoming a waste of time again... later
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:38 PM #69
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So, as soon as someone asks you to explain your morals in relation to your politics, you bail? Strange...
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Old 08-14-2012, 07:40 PM #70
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Lol, you're joking right? You haven't done anything but dodge questions since you started. Sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time talking with someone who isn't capable of answering simple questions.
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Old 08-14-2012, 07:43 PM #71
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you guys are getting off topic
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:24 PM #72
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PM'ing you, since contiuing the discussion here is pointless.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:26 PM #73
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I'm fairly certain I made a pretty clear point as to how my morals shape my ideology.
Where?
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:32 PM #74
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Where?
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As a Christian and conservative, I see things a bit differently than most. The Bible gives no requirement for care to be provided for by the government (i.e. - welfare state), but puts the onus on the person. This is more in line with giving to charity and doing your part in helping out your fellow man. This also falls in line with a recent study done that showed conservatives donated more to charity than their liberal counterparts, who seemed content that their taxes would go to similar government run programs.

I believe I set out one major example, right there. If you need some exposition, it is thus:

The Bible sets forth that we should take care of our sick, elderly, and poor, however, since Jesus' words do not reflect a "requirement" that we do so, it is then that we act out of charity. We are to be willing to do this in order to fulfill the task, instead of begrudingly, as there are quite a few verses that deals with doing something with a hard heart.

That being said, we should not be required to pay welfare if we have the ability to give to any privately funded organization that accomplishes the same goal, for less money, and less waste (e.g. - government welfare programs, which are currently funded to a tune of just under $700B). How much good can be done with that sort of money, and how much is actually accomplished by the government with it?

Is that better?
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:02 PM #75
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Welfare is a joke. Why should we be forced to provide support for the weak and feeble?

I am completely opposed to the idea of getting something for doing nothing/being rewarded for degeneracy. Charity is fine but forcing people to give up their money in order to fund welfare is not.
Whether you like the idea of welfare or not, it is much much much worse to have poor people with absolutely no money for anything. That is when people start committing crimes to fund whatever, or even more fun, riot. History has shown this over the last few thousand years so it is really one of those cases where it is pointless to debate unless you just argue for the sake of arguing. It is the nature of the safety net that is up for debate.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:21 AM #76
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Where?
I'm glad that I'm not the only one seeing it. I thought I was losing my mind for a bit.
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:20 PM #77
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Whether you like the idea of welfare or not, it is much much much worse to have poor people with absolutely no money for anything.
I respectfully disagree. Providing for the needy only creates more dependency. Let's take feeding-the-hungry as our example. When you give food to the poor, you enable that poor person to live long enough to have children. And poor people tend to have poor babies. Now, instead of having just the one poor person, you have several poor people... all of whom need to be fed. By feeding the poor person, you've actually increased the hungry-poor population.

While it may seem cruel, our population would be better off (in the long term) to simply allow the excess population to expire. This is not to mean that we should hasten it by taking action to kill them off, but rather simply to let nature run its course.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:07 PM #78
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I suppose to answer the question of Christian charity requires us to establish whether or not Christianity desires charity to be a product of free will or not.
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Old 08-15-2012, 04:09 PM #79
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Except your idea isn't working out in the poorest countries in the world. People go to the dump and eat rotten food, burn copper wiring to sell etc. And the poorest in the world still have hoards of babies. So now you have piss poor diseased families that make shanty housing and make your whole country look like a ghetto.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:08 PM #80
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Except your idea isn't working out in the poorest countries in the world. People go to the dump and eat rotten food, burn copper wiring to sell etc. And the poorest in the world still have hoards of babies. So now you have piss poor diseased families that make shanty housing and make your whole country look like a ghetto.
Maybe this why humanity takes slaves? A loss of personal freedom while given the ability to reap the benefits of civilization like clothing food housing and sanitation. The civilization benefits from the labor and and the slave benefits from the conditions it did not formerly possess.

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Old 08-15-2012, 05:21 PM #81
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Except your idea isn't working out in the poorest countries in the world. People go to the dump and eat rotten food, burn copper wiring to sell etc. And the poorest in the world still have hoards of babies. So now you have piss poor diseased families that make shanty housing and make your whole country look like a ghetto.
Hey, if you want to feed them, then please, by all means, feed them! Feed them til your heart's content. But keep in mind, once you do, you'll be feeding them for the rest of your life. It will not end. And even after you've fed them, they'll still be living in ghettos.

Part of the problem is that the poor tend to break laws for 2 reasons: 1) to gain assets they didn't have, and 2) to intentionally get caught and become incarcerated - once incarcerated they have access to medical, food, and housing. Any time jail becomes a step-up in living conditions for someone, then the criminal justice system has failed.
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:29 PM #82
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Maybe this why humanity takes slaves? A loss of personal freedom while given the ability to reap the benefits of civilization like clothing food housing and sanitation. The civilization benefits from the labor and and the slave benefits from the conditions it did not formerly possess.
Yeah i have always believed that slavery is the ancient equivalent of a modern "job" without the application part.
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Hey, if you want to feed them, then please, by all means, feed them! Feed them til your heart's content. But keep in mind, once you do, you'll be feeding them for the rest of your life. It will not end. And even after you've fed them, they'll still be living in ghettos.

Part of the problem is that the poor tend to break laws for 2 reasons: 1) to gain assets they didn't have, and 2) to intentionally get caught and become incarcerated - once incarcerated they have access to medical, food, and housing. Any time jail becomes a step-up in living conditions for someone, then the criminal justice system has failed.
Hey I am not disagreeing with your logic, but rather the outcome. The poor don't die off like that. Society is so cushy now that they can easily live off discarded waste even in the poorest of countries. And really even in ancient societies families never died off like that, they would lose several children but as long as two or more survive the cycle continues. So yes we could stop providing for them but society as a whole tends to suffer rather like a tumor on an otherwise healthy body.

The problem is the poor tend to pass on their disregard for education, saving money etc. onto their children. It's not like its genetic. The idea behind welfare is you can give them a little money-and it is a little-and a few can use it to break the cycle. And it happens more than you think. I feel we need to reform welfare to make it both more temporary, and more likely to encourage people to get on their feet and work productive jobs. That's just my opinion.

Lastly, it is not the drain on the economy people make it out to be. It is mostly a litmus-test moral argument.

Edit: are you a Christian? Because if so your arguments against the poor are directly contrary to what Jesus taught.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:52 PM #83
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Edit: are you a Christian? Because if so your arguments against the poor are directly contrary to what Jesus taught.
No, I'm not Christian, although I was raised Roman Catholic. I am now a Druid - giving reverance to Mother Earth.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:06 PM #84
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1) You can't just "become" a Druid. They were a privileged social class that required decades of study to join.

2) Modern historians know almost nothing about Druids or their function in Gaelic/Celtic society, nor do they have any scripture from them.

3) They practiced human sacrifice. Do you do that to? Or is it just a fad for you to claim being a Druid to try and seem intelligent?
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