Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-20-2012, 01:03 PM #43
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Christianity requires no moral code on your part. You can be a complete ******* your entire life, raping babies, murder, theft, go nuts, as long as you believe in Jesus/God, you're going to heaven. God forgives anything and everything requiring only your faith.
Of course, if you lack faith you can be the best person ever, infallible moral code, charitable, kind, caring, etc, if you don't have faith you're going to hell, no questions asked.

The teachings in the bible are nothing more than suggestions, but nowhere does it say you have to follow those rules, as long as you believe, you have nothing to worry about.

I'm not entirely sure what "atheist rhetoric" is, maybe it's the same arguments we have to wheel out every time you open your mouth ("why is evolution a theory," "if a house appears designed," where do you get your moral code from") what I do know is when Christians begin to lose arguments(which they inevitably do, it's impossible to win an argument with no premise to stand upon) they react violently. Hopefully you can keep your cool.

Last edited by Paper_Cut : 07-20-2012 at 01:08 PM.
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 07-20-2012, 03:39 PM #44
Negligence DawnBeak (Banned)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
If god forgave you for everything there would be no hell. If you believe every Christian code is subjective and mere suggestions then how do you reconcile your belief with the fact that the Christian God passes judgement on EVERYONE?

Do not murder

Do not steal

Do not lie

Do not commit adultery

Love your neighbor

Be charitable

Love the sinner but hate the sin

All of the above are completely illogical and would make anyone practicing them the worst human being on the planet.

Oh wait. I guarantee almost everyone on this forum would agree all those ARE good things.

Last edited by Negligence DawnBeak : 07-20-2012 at 03:41 PM.
Negligence DawnBeak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 04:11 PM #45
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negligence DawnBeak View Post
If god forgave you for everything there would be no hell. If you believe every Christian code is subjective and mere suggestions then how do you reconcile your belief with the fact that the Christian God passes judgement on EVERYONE?

Do not murder

Do not steal

Do not lie

Do not commit adultery

Love your neighbor

Be charitable

Love the sinner but hate the sin

All of the above are completely illogical and would make anyone practicing them the worst human being on the planet.

Oh wait. I guarantee almost everyone on this forum would agree all those ARE good things.
And none of those involve a belief in God, you can do all of those things without opening a bible. And lets not forget that Christians are statistically more likely to lie, cheat, steal, and murder, than your average non-believer.


Jesus was the one who supposedly said that you don't need to be a good person, all you have to do is believe in God and you will go to heaven. Matthew 5:18-19 basically states that those who do good works will get good things in heaven and those who don't "will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" so you still get to go to heaven, you'll just be flying coach.
So, if you break that down, Hitler(a roman catholic) is enjoying himself in heaven while the 6 billion jews he killed are burning in hell.

Last edited by Paper_Cut : 07-20-2012 at 04:15 PM.
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 04:19 PM #46
Negligence DawnBeak (Banned)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
It doesn't matter that you can do all those without believing in a god. The point is that THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. This is what Martian church was accusing you of doing. Being dogmatic. Stop it. If you read the bible and your life is dictated by the aforementioned principles, guess what, you are a good person. Please leave your bias at the door or stop posting here.

Hitler broke a ten commandment, more accurately, Himmler did. Either way, they are judged. Do you know what being called means?

Last edited by Negligence DawnBeak : 07-20-2012 at 04:21 PM.
Negligence DawnBeak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 04:31 PM #47
Negligence DawnBeak (Banned)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Actually you completely misinterpreted the passage you quoted:

19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That says nothing about rewards in heaven. Hate to break it to you. What you are "called" in the kingdom of heaven in no way means that you are "called" into the kingdom of heaven as you seem to be implying. Not to mention the message of this "gospel" is saying that it is looked down upon to break even the smallest of the commandments/law.

Sorry bud.
Negligence DawnBeak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 04:44 PM #48
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negligence DawnBeak View Post
It doesn't matter that you can do all those without believing in a god. The point is that THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. This is what Martian church was accusing you of doing. Being dogmatic. Stop it. If you read the bible and your life is dictated by the aforementioned principles, guess what, you are a good person. Please leave your bias at the door or stop posting here.
Murder:
And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15: 12-13)
"Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses."(Numbers 15: 32-36)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21)

Rape:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29) by the way, that is roughly $900 in today's money. So, if you rape a girl all you have to do is cough up $900 and she has to marry you.
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

Sex Slaves:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment(Exodus 21:7-1)

Prayer cures the sick:
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)

Murder sons for sins of the father:

"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21)

Jesus curses a fig tree
“And on the morrow, when they had come out of Bethany, he [Jesus] hungered. And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if perhaps he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for it was not the season of figs. And he answered and said unto it, ‘No man [will] eat fruit from you from now on — for ever.’ And his disciples heard it . . .And as they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance said unto him, ‘Rabbi, behold, the fig tree that you cursed is withered away’” (Mk. 11:12-14; 20-21).
so, basically if you don't get what you want when you want it, you are free to curse whatever didn't give you what you wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negligence DawnBeak View Post
Actually you completely misinterpreted the passage you quoted:

19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That says nothing about rewards in heaven. Hate to break it to you. What you are "called" in the kingdom of heaven in no way means that you are "called" into the kingdom of heaven as you seem to be implying. Not to mention the message of this "gospel" is saying that it is looked down upon to break even the smallest of the commandments/law.

Sorry bud.
My point was whether you do or don't follow the commandments you are going to heaven simply for believing that God is real.

I'm sure I made my point by now, the bible isn't a guide for morality as we know of it today, which is why you can abandon it's teachings and get into heaven by faith, otherwise every Christian would be in jail for the atrocities God commanded them to do.


EDIT: Is this the "atheist rhetoric" that was spoken about? Quoting what the bible actually says instead of what Christians want it to say?

Last edited by Paper_Cut : 07-20-2012 at 05:02 PM.
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 05:02 PM #49
Negligence DawnBeak (Banned)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Except that you are wrong about everyone going to heaven and the only text you have provided so far on the matter is completely false to that conclusion.

What are you trying to prove by posting a bunch of rules that absolutely nobody follows? Christianity is a chimaera of liberalized values and old values IE the ones you've chosen. Nobody denies they are in there but the fact that they aren't practiced nor truly preached is telling isn't it. We accuse christians of cherry picking yet are you not guilty of the same?

You have no case and no point as well as zero understanding of ancient views. I don't blame you really. To explain the proper perspective needed to understand the passages you quoted is evidently well beyond your grasp. As evidenced by the fact that you obviously eat up the secular humanist values espoused by every internet atheist warrior.

You probably do have the capacity to grasp the proper perspective to understand ancient thought process, but you are far too engrained in your ideology to step outside of it for nothing more than the sake of education. Perhaps you could drop the troll act and contribute to discussion for once without the animosity, but I won't hold my breathe.

Good day. Feel free to respond, but dont expect anything in return unless you change and correct your attitude.
Negligence DawnBeak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 05:10 PM #50
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negligence DawnBeak View Post
Except that you are wrong about everyone going to heaven and the only text you have provided so far on the matter is completely false to that conclusion.

What are you trying to prove by posting a bunch of rules that absolutely nobody follows? Christianity is a chimaera of liberalized values and old values IE the ones you've chosen. Nobody denies they are in there but the fact that they aren't practiced nor truly preached is telling isn't it. We accuse christians of cherry picking yet are you not guilty of the same?

You have no case and no point as well as zero understanding of ancient views. I don't blame you really. To explain the proper perspective needed to understand the passages you quoted is evidently well beyond your grasp. As evidenced by the fact that you obviously eat up the secular humanist values espoused by every internet atheist warrior.

You probably do have the capacity to grasp the proper perspective to understand ancient thought process, but you are far too engrained in your ideology to step outside of it for nothing more than the sake of education. Perhaps you could drop the troll act and contribute to discussion for once without the animosity, but I won't hold my breathe.

Good day. Feel free to respond, but dont expect anything in return unless you change and correct your attitude.


I'm pretty sure I know more about Christianity than you do, because the more you learn about Christianity the less sense it makes and the more likely you are to become an atheist. I was raised Southern Baptist and was a bible thumper for quite some time, the change was slow, he seemed to have less and less power and less and less made sense and finally I came to the only obvious conclusion. Read the bible yourself, by the time you finish you'll be an atheist, too.

Last edited by Paper_Cut : 07-20-2012 at 05:14 PM.
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2012, 08:06 PM #51
Subterfuge
Arctic Wolf
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Alaska
 has been a member for 10 years
Certain scriptures in the Bible only make sense when I am in the most intense adversity. That being said, I read it front to back 3-5 times.
Subterfuge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 12:06 PM #52
GhostJedai
I push buttons
 
GhostJedai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Southern California
Annual Supporting Member
GhostJedai is BST Trusted
GhostJedai has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai is attending Decay of Nations VII
GhostJedai supports Empire
Strange how this conversation devolved into spiritual rhetoric.

Trying to turn things back to the original topic:

As a Christian and conservative, I see things a bit differently than most. The Bible gives no requirement for care to be provided for by the government (i.e. - welfare state), but puts the onus on the person. This is more in line with giving to charity and doing your part in helping out your fellow man. This also falls in line with a recent study done that showed conservatives donated more to charity than their liberal counterparts, who seemed content that their taxes would go to similar government run programs.

Oh, I also don't trust the government to spend my money wisely, whereas charities have massive oversight (at least the ones I donate to), so I can be sure that the money is going to where it needs (feeding homeless, building medical clinics in africa and south asia, etc.).
__________________
Christ Krew #17

GhostJedai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 12:17 PM #53
chodeyg
sprezzatura
 
chodeyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: via lactea
Don't mean to be rude but charities do not have much oversight at all. Most of the money that people donate to charities go toward maintaining fundraising activities.
__________________
Resurrect dead on planet Jupiter
chodeyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 12:22 PM #54
Umami
"That guy"
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Baltimore
Umami works for a Paintball manufacturer
Umami supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostJedai View Post
"Christian" nonsense.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3853391
__________________
Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 12:33 PM #55
GhostJedai
I push buttons
 
GhostJedai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Southern California
Annual Supporting Member
GhostJedai is BST Trusted
GhostJedai has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai is attending Decay of Nations VII
GhostJedai supports Empire
Quote:
Originally Posted by chodeyg View Post
Don't mean to be rude but charities do not have much oversight at all. Most of the money that people donate to charities go toward maintaining fundraising activities.
You're not being rude, just honest. That's also why I made the caveat about the charities I donate to will get the money to where it's needed. It takes a bit of research, and much of my donations are in the form of physical goods, as well (clothes, furniture, computers). I've done a little charity work, myself, especially in feeding the homeless at Thanksgiving and Christmas (though I know I should probably do that more often), but as a rule, a good charity will dedicate less than 20% to overhead, and let the rest go to their charity work.

On the flipside, an organization like Invisible Children lets around 70-80% go to overhead, claiming that their sole purpose is making people "aware" of an issue, rather than actually solving it. As such, I try to prevent friends from even giving them the time of day.

Also, there are organizations where you can sponsor children, etc. I haven't done that, myself, but I'm going to start looking into it to see what I can do.

I've also been to South America to help build a school, as well. There's plenty of stuff you can do, as long as you're willing to make a sacrifice to help others. I really don't see anything inherently "Christian" in that, as anyone can do it, regardless of their personal belief system.
__________________
Christ Krew #17

GhostJedai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 12:44 PM #56
chodeyg
sprezzatura
 
chodeyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: via lactea
Yeah there are some great charities out there but if you hear about them on a regular basis, chances are the money they spend goes to making sure you hear about that charity. Strange really.
__________________
Resurrect dead on planet Jupiter
chodeyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 01:37 PM #57
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostJedai View Post
As a Christian and conservative, I see things a bit differently than most. The Bible gives no requirement for care to be provided for by the government (i.e. - welfare state), but puts the onus on the person. This is more in line with giving to charity and doing your part in helping out your fellow man. This also falls in line with a recent study done that showed conservatives donated more to charity than their liberal counterparts, who seemed content that their taxes would go to similar government run programs.
Are you farmiliar with the current exchange between georgetown and paul ryan. This letter is short but worth the read:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...FHA/edit?pli=1

I recognize that you may not be Catholic. I am not. But the principles still apply in a lot of ways and a protestant response to paul ryan can just as easily be found.

--

I have a question for you. Why would you want to separate the ideas of your religion from your political philosophy? How can you personally value selflessness and supporting the poor but at the same time advocate a political view that values selfishness and supporting yourself?
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads

Last edited by TheSilentAssassin : 08-14-2012 at 01:42 PM.
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 03:09 PM #58
GhostJedai
I push buttons
 
GhostJedai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Southern California
Annual Supporting Member
GhostJedai is BST Trusted
GhostJedai has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
GhostJedai is attending Decay of Nations VII
GhostJedai supports Empire
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Are you farmiliar with the current exchange between georgetown and paul ryan. This letter is short but worth the read:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...FHA/edit?pli=1

I recognize that you may not be Catholic. I am not. But the principles still apply in a lot of ways and a protestant response to paul ryan can just as easily be found.

--

I have a question for you. Why would you want to separate the ideas of your religion from your political philosophy? How can you personally value selflessness and supporting the poor but at the same time advocate a political view that values selfishness and supporting yourself?
To answer your first topic, I haven't read Rep. Ryan's budget proposal, and know that I may not agree with it. Just because I align myself with the "Right" does not mean I always agree with their policies. I would rather have an informed opinion of both sides before commenting.

To your second point, I see no corolation between selfishness and the Conservative movement. And, I often see "supporting yourself" and "supporting others" to go hand in hand, as if you are able to support yourself, you then have an opportunity to support others.

My main issue is the growing ideology of "government dependence." This country has more people on welfare than ever, and many are abusing the system. We have illegal immigrants (not just from mexico, as I've seen more than a few from Europe on expired student visas) who are now encouraged to get on foodstamps; no one is properly enforcing unemployment benefits, making it easy for someone to stay on the program without looking for work (as is required).

Essentially, my political beliefs are thus: Our system is in dire need of repair. Some of the welfare programs, specifically targetting children and youth, are acceptable, but the government simply giving out money or food with no requirement will never be a good system.

The trick is to vote your morals, which I believe everyone already does. If you don't agree with something or someone, don't vote for them; if you do agree with it (or them), cast your vote and be heard.
__________________
Christ Krew #17

GhostJedai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 03:39 PM #59
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostJedai View Post
My main issue is the growing ideology of "government dependence." This country has more people on welfare than ever, and many are abusing the system. We have illegal immigrants (not just from mexico, as I've seen more than a few from Europe on expired student visas) who are now encouraged to get on foodstamps; no one is properly enforcing unemployment benefits, making it easy for someone to stay on the program without looking for work (as is required).
I'm well verses in the conservative catch-phrase rhetoric and am not particularly interested in your opinion on it (P.S. I have heard it before...) However, I am interested in hearing your justifications for those beliefs and how Christianity fits into it. So:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostJedai View Post
The trick is to vote your morals, which I believe everyone already does. If you don't agree with something or someone, don't vote for them; if you do agree with it (or them), cast your vote and be heard.
Where are these morals supposed to come from. I'm assuming that as a Christian your moral system is informed by the Bible and by the Church. If this is true, please demonstrate to me the biblical backing of your moral views and how they lead to your political stance.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 04:40 PM #60
chodeyg
sprezzatura
 
chodeyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: via lactea
Welfare isn't working in its current state, that's for sure. I've seen so many instances of drug dealers taking foodstamps its crazy.
__________________
Resurrect dead on planet Jupiter
chodeyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 04:43 PM #61
F1VENOM
 
 
F1VENOM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chodeyg View Post
Welfare isn't working in its current state, that's for sure. I've seen so many instances of drug dealers taking foodstamps its crazy.
What about billionaires using tax shelters?
__________________
"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
F1VENOM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 04:47 PM #62
chodeyg
sprezzatura
 
chodeyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: via lactea
That's ****ed too
__________________
Resurrect dead on planet Jupiter
chodeyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2012, 04:48 PM #63
F1VENOM
 
 
F1VENOM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chodeyg View Post
That's ****ed too
Yeah but it's ****ed with a couple of extra zeros behind it.
__________________
"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
F1VENOM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump