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Old 05-08-2012, 07:18 PM #43
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Originally Posted by Zippin35 View Post
Next question is why does the vector include 68% of the shots? I dont know if this is the norm or just a random number, sorry.
"Vector" represents the length of a line that is one standard deviation from the mean listed at the bottom of the columns.

You've seen a bell curve? Looks like so:


You can see that one standard deviation either side of the mean encompasses 68% of the area under the curve. Two standard deviations either side of the mean encompasses 95% of the area under the curve. Three standard deviations from the mean encompasses 99.7%.
So, a circle with a radius of "vector" (or one standard deviation) will include 68% of the shots, a circle with a radius of 2 "vectors" will include 95% of the shots etc.
Clear as mud?

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Originally Posted by Zippin35 View Post
Secondly how many shots had a deviation >5 and how many <5? There seem to be a lot more in the original group of +/-2. This also leaves a gap from +/-2 to >/= 5. what happened to +/-3 and 4. Sorry if I seem picky but this is the first data I have seen raw like this and it it presented pretty well so I am trying to get everything I can out of it.

Can you give a sequential comparison of <+/-5 to >/= +/-5? and see where that leaves us. Also were you underboring or overbring or what on these test. I understand it is to isolate whether consistency plays a large role, just curious as to what you are shooting through.
Well, I could sort out various categories of shot consistencies from the main group, and as long as they contained 25 shots or so (gotta have that many to be a statistically valid sample) they'd have a vector very close to the original group. The random walk of the paintballs just obscures any trend we might see with improved shot-to-shot consistency. Now if we had a gun shooting more than, say, +-15fps we might begin to tease out a trend.

These shots were through a .687" barrel.

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Old 05-09-2012, 03:15 AM #44
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I've concluded the only time that underboring extremes adds to paint breakage is when you're shooting cold, super brittle or deformed paint.

We've got some rentals at my local field that I swear are under a .670 bore and they shoot paint that sizes to .684 without many breaks. Though when that paint swells it tends to get out right stuck in the barrel before breaking.. Lol
I have the same results. Basically paintball shells can compress or deform a ways before breaking, but if they are brittle, or if the ball is very out-of-round and thus can expand excessively in one direction when crammed into a barrel, that's what causes breaks. In most normal situations balls will get stuck before breaking from underbore.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:06 AM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertseakykr View Post
Well, I could sort out various categories of shot consistencies from the main group, and as long as they contained 25 shots or so (gotta have that many to be a statistically valid sample) they'd have a vector very close to the original group. The random walk of the paintballs just obscures any trend we might see with improved shot-to-shot consistency. Now if we had a gun shooting more than, say, +-15fps we might begin to tease out a trend.

These shots were through a .687" barrel.
Ah now I remember that class in college haha. Makes perfect sense now. The only reason I asked for the grouping the way I did was similar to what you said about the small consistency jumps not being a large factor. Was just curious if the less than more than 5 groupings would be able to show any differences. To me more than 5 is enough to be considered noticeable. Maybe if we makes extremes and do the +/-2 and then the second group could be the more than +/-8. Also how far away was the target?
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:40 PM #46
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...Maybe if we makes extremes and do the +/-2 and then the second group could be the more than +/-8. Also how far away was the target?
Range for this test was 75'
Unfortunately, this data set isn't able to give me a large enough set of shots >= +-8fps.
I need a sample size of 20 at the bare minimum to give a result that has any significance. Unfortunately, I don't have a larger set of continuous data to pull apart.
I could amalgamate the results of a larger test of various bore sizes...if you have no objections to that.
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Old 05-10-2012, 06:58 AM #47
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http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...NA&output=html

Cockerpunk and his friends at Punkworks did a test with a few different size barrels and shows that you get the lowest average spin with a .003 underbore. Check the link to look at the data tables.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:25 AM #48
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:56 AM #49
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Oh look, more paintballers playing "scientist". Prove its normally distributed and what hack taught you 20 samples would be enough to be significant. Population size?

These "tests" are a waste of paint, and fueled by the half assed fantasies of 11 year olds of the "perfectly accurate paintball rifle". You get the best accuracy with the best paint and diameter has little to do with it. Go shoot some people with it instead.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:31 AM #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quacker View Post
Oh look, more paintballers playing "scientist". Prove its normally distributed and what hack taught you 20 samples would be enough to be significant. Population size?

These "tests" are a waste of paint, and fueled by the half assed fantasies of 11 year olds of the "perfectly accurate paintball rifle". You get the best accuracy with the best paint and diameter has little to do with it. Go shoot some people with it instead.
Not to be rude, but wow what an arrogant statement. Are we shooting your paint? Causing you some issues by seeking out these answers? For once we seem to have a thread where people are trying to read data and come to a cohesive agreement instead of bickering over personal thoughts and opinions. There are several other threads on the same topic that have turned into a bicker match, go post this there.

As for this thread, I am 100% in favor of getting some reasonable answers to this question as it is one of the oldest in paintball. I think getting other data with different bore sizes would only fuel the myth battle. For now I guess this is the best we can do but in the future, if possible, I would like a test where a gun is set up and fired to get the same data. However, the main data we are seeking would be simply the incredibly consistent (+/- around 2) and the much more sporadic (+/- 8 and up). This would allow us to ignore the median consistencies and truly see if consistency has any effect over accuracy.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:51 PM #51
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Oh look, more paintballers playing "scientist". Prove its normally distributed and what hack taught you 20 samples would be enough to be significant. Population size?
Sure, I'll prove it's a normal distribution as soon as you prove your not an *******.

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These "tests" are a waste of paint, and fueled by the half assed fantasies of 11 year olds of the "perfectly accurate paintball rifle". You get the best accuracy with the best paint and diameter has little to do with it. Go shoot some people with it instead.
Looks like we might never know...
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:48 AM #52
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Typical. Good ol' defensive pseudoscientists. Anyways, back to pretending that what you did mattered
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:07 AM #53
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ummm, I actually said prove your not an *******.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:47 AM #54
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Get past a 7th grade science class first. Misinformation and inappropriate conclusions are more harmful than not doing anything than all
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:33 AM #55
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No one is getting defensive, there is just no need to flame the thread unless you have other data that is better suited to the discussion. Do you have better information to add?
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:28 AM #56
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Get past a 7th grade science class first. Misinformation and inappropriate conclusions are more harmful than not doing anything than all
Heh, you're a real pleasure to have around...maybe actually refer to something specific.
And I like to see contrary evidence that isn't simply anecdotal or hyperbole.

Oh, also try not to be a dick.
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:00 PM #57
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Alright we'll all be here waiting for your conclusive test Quacker. I think a case through each bore size from .675-.695 should probably do it so that's 20 barrels at least and you'll need to use Ultra Evil or similar paint so it's nice and consistent so uh...about $1200 in paint should cover it. When can we expect your results?

You ***** at the above people for having pretty good tests even if the sample size isn't that big, where's your tests that are so amazingly scientifically accurate? Don't be ******* if you can't (or won't) do better. You saying "All this science is worthless, paint consistency is all that matters" without any data of your own is as bad as the "flawed" tests (which aren't all that flawed to begin with). Actually it's worse because you couldn't even be bothered to be courteous in voicing your concerns.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:20 PM #58
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Originally Posted by robertseakykr View Post
Heh, you're a real pleasure to have around...maybe actually refer to something specific.
And I like to see contrary evidence that isn't simply anecdotal or hyperbole.

Oh, also try not to be a dick.
funny, anyone that refutes you is a dick...


irony, thy name is this guy
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:13 PM #59
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I'm still waiting to be "refuted". I already posted how it could be easily accomplished.
I still haven't heard what the "misinformation" or "inappropriate conclusions" actually are.
Criticize away, but be ready to back it up. Bluster and brash bull**** doesn't impress me in the slightest.

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Old 05-13-2012, 07:30 PM #60
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funny, anyone that refutes you is a dick...


irony, thy name is this guy
Are you serious? Compare the tone of Quacker's post to robert's.

PBN seems to have come down with a case of the stupids in this thread.
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:41 PM #61
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If it even matters anymore, I ordered the .678 Eigenbarrel. It has the longest control bore, so I should see some gains in efficiency, plus I love the sound signature of my .684 Eigenbarrel.
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Old 05-13-2012, 10:48 PM #62
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If it even matters anymore, I ordered the .678 Eigenbarrel. It has the longest control bore, so I should see some gains in efficiency, plus I love the sound signature of my .684 Eigenbarrel.
Well that's not true at all
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Old 05-14-2012, 07:55 AM #63
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Are you serious? Compare the tone of Quacker's post to robert's.

PBN seems to have come down with a case of the stupids in this thread.
Agreed. I'm not saying this is the end all be all test and will be 100% accurate but robert has been posting up data he has collected, I have been trying to see what kind of results he can get by suggesting different groupings. If you have other data that you see as better, more accurate, or more correct then please share it. If you have no data and are posting for no good reason then please leave the thread. Dont waste your time arguing against the raw data (not even any conclusions we have drawn) unless you have better.
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