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Old 12-29-2003, 01:28 AM #1
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Is this kind of efficiency possible?

I was browsing another forum and there's several people that say they get efficiency that just doesn't sound right. One guy is claiming he's getting a case off a 68/3000. Another guy is saying he's getting a case off a 45/4500. I know it's rare enough that someone actually gets a true full case off a 68/4500, let alone a tank that's 1/3 it's capacity. Is this even possible, and if not, anyway to prove it (via math, physics, etc)?
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:33 AM #2
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Yes there is a way to do it w/ physics. There is only so much stored potential energy in a tank. And you can figure out the required energy for each shot going off of what psi they are using, then basing that off of 100% efficiency you can find out the total # of shots thats potentially stored. Of course no valve is even close to 100% efficient so the actual shots will be ALOTTTTT less.
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:35 AM #3
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Currently reading a thread on AO about it... good stuff.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=18939
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:41 AM #4
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I did some math on here a LONGGGGGG time ago. I think Doc Nickel did the math once ....or wait.... Josh did the math to disprove Ethan's claims.
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:46 AM #5
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I remember that...Ethan stopped posting on here for a while after that...HEHEHE!

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Old 12-29-2003, 01:48 AM #6
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Hehehe....yeah. Hey Hammer u ready to shoot yourself?....that noid quit working on me...it worked, sat overnight, fired it up the next morning and it wasn't working all of a sudden....haha. Thought you'd get as frustrated as me w/ that one...lol.
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:57 AM #7
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Re: Is this kind of efficiency possible?

Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
I was browsing another forum and there's several people that say they get efficiency that just doesn't sound right. One guy is claiming he's getting a case off a 68/3000. Another guy is saying he's getting a case off a 45/4500. I know it's rare enough that someone actually gets a true full case off a 68/4500, let alone a tank that's 1/3 it's capacity. Is this even possible, and if not, anyway to prove it (via math, physics, etc)?
Iím a skeptical optimist. I am skeptical of most extraordinary claims, but at the same time hopeful that it could be true because then it would be wonderful.

My first question for the guy is what velocity was his gun shooting while getting that extraordinary efficiency? My guess is that the gun had to be at a very low velocity, as it would use less air. Thatís the only plausible explanation that makes sense to me.

Another thing, I've never owned a 3000 PSI tank, all mine are 4500 PSI. None of my tanks ever reach a full 4500, even with a cool down and a top off. 4200 PSI is the best I can get. Is this the same with 3000 PSI tanks? What is its effective fill? 2500?
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Old 12-29-2003, 02:01 AM #8
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hmm... if you have a 68/3000 tank, you have 204,000 cubic lbs of energy. He claims he's running his mini at 195psi, so 195 * 68ci = 13,260 cubic lbs of energy you can't use (can't really shoot a tank on less than the input). In this case, he'd have 204,000 - 13,260 = 190,740 in usuable energy. To get 2000 shots, he'd have to use about 95 in energy per shot. Getting 2000 on a 68/4500 would require about 125 ish I think.

So basically, he's saying that if he were to screw in a 68/4500 into his marker, he'd be getting about 3000 shots off a full fill. Although I'm relatively new to the sport (a bit over a year), I've never heard of any marker at any pressure getting that kind of efficiency. Is it just me or does something not seem right?


*edit*
and those numbers are with a full fill at 100% efficiency.
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Old 12-29-2003, 03:11 AM #9
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In case u all were wondering there is approximately 1.36 joules worth of energy stored in a 68/4500 tank on a full fill. I say approximately, b/c notice I didn't respect the sig digs. That might help u a little bit w/ your math. Sometimes Joules can be easier to work w/ instead of lbs. of force.
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Old 12-29-2003, 03:18 AM #10
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unfortunately, I'm kind of winging this since I'm basing my knowledge off of what I'm learning from the posts on AO. Since they're using lbs of force, I have to as well, otherwise I'll really confuse myself.
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Old 12-29-2003, 03:23 AM #11
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lol....well if u need help understanding any of it, feel free to PM me and I'll see if I can't help. It's been a couple years since physics, but I still have a pretty decent grasp on it. Sounds like you've got the jist of it though...for the most part. Just make sure when breaking things down u keep identifying your method of measurement, or you'll really get lost...I've learned that the hard way in Quantitative Analysis....that class kicked me in the rear...lol.
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Old 12-29-2003, 03:36 AM #12
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Thanks, I appreciate the offer. If I have any trouble I'll check my 101 physics book, but if I really can't figure it out I'll send ya a msg. Thanks
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Old 12-29-2003, 12:46 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tanner
In case u all were wondering there is approximately 1.36 joules worth of energy stored in a 68/4500 tank on a full fill. I say approximately, b/c notice I didn't respect the sig digs. That might help u a little bit w/ your math. Sometimes Joules can be easier to work w/ instead of lbs. of force.
Umm, that is completely incorrect.

68ci x 4500psi = 306,000 in*lbs ebergy.

306000 in*lbs / 12in per foot = 25500 ft-lbs of energy.

25500 ft-lbs x (1 joule / .73756 ft-lbs) = 34,573.46 joules per full fill. Not 1.36.

A paintball moving at 300fps has 13.378 joules of kinetic energy. Thus, a 100% efficient paintgun that can shoot down to 0 psi at full velocity can get (34,573.46/13.378) = 2584.35 shots. That's the theoretical maximum, per se, so anyone claiming more than 2580 300 fps shots on a 68/45 is lying, and he's probably lying if he claims anywhere near that number since paintguns are generally nowhere near 100% efficient and can't run down to 0psi.

If we apply the same math to the tank in the original question, a 45/45:

45x4500 = 202500 in*lbs.
202500/12 = 16875 ft-lbs.
16875/.73756 = 22879.49 joules
22879.49/13.378 = 1710 shots.

So less than 1700 300fps shots are possible (in the real world) with a 45/45. If he's claiming slower velocity shots, that number goes up a BIT, but it's still essentially impossible for him to be getting a case on a 45/45.

Let's look at a 68/3000 now:

68x3000 = 204000 in-lbs
204000/12 = 17000 ft-lbs
17000/.73756 = 23048.97 joules
23048.97/13.378 = 1722.90 shots.

So a 68/3000 and a 45/4500 are roughly comparable. It is INDISPUTABLY impossible to get a case of 300fps shots on either tank in question. I'm too lazy to redo the math with 285fps or 270fps, but suffice to say, based on these numbers here, I'm 95% sure it's also impossible to get a case on either tank at those velocities.

Question answered.

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Old 12-29-2003, 12:55 PM #14
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awesome. Had I known how much energy it took per shot, I would've eventually figured it out Any chance of getting you to tell me how you got 13.378 = 300fps ? I understand how the equations work from there, just not that.
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Old 12-29-2003, 12:58 PM #15
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Oh, and just to throw a monkey wrench into the machine: the nitrogen (or HPA, although nitrogen would be easier for the math than a gas mixture like HPA) in a full nitro tank is well into the supercritical fluid stage (acting as much like a liquid as a gas), where pressure and whatnot is actually determined by Van der Waal's equation. It would be interesting to find the actual number of moles of gas via that equation and see how it affects our notions of efficiency when we bring it down to the firing pressures of paintball markers (50-100 psi generally). We might find that our guns are much less efficient than we had previously thought.

Needless to say I am FAR too lazy to actually figure this out.

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Old 12-29-2003, 01:02 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
awesome. Had I known how much energy it took per shot, I would've eventually figured it out Any chance of getting you to tell me how you got 13.378 = 300fps ? I understand how the equations work from there, just not that.
Sure thing. Kinetic Energy at the muzzle = potential energy from the gas. KE = 1/2 mV^2, where m is the mass and V is the velocity. The average mass of a paintball (the tinkers' guild computed this long ago) is around 3.23 grams (.00323kg), and the velocity is easy enough to figure out (convert 300fps into meters/sec, around 91m/s if I remember right). Plug it into 1/2mV^2 and you get joules.

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Old 12-29-2003, 01:08 PM #17
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Conqueror, you dont have to answer, but what the hell do you do for a living? Scientist? Physics major? God that stuff is confusing...no wonder I almost failed chemistry and physics.
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:11 PM #18
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Conqueror: thanks
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:19 PM #19
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Conqueror, you dont have to answer, but what the hell do you do for a living? Scientist? Physics major? God that stuff is confusing...no wonder I almost failed chemistry and physics.
Nope, just a nerd.

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Old 12-29-2003, 01:22 PM #20
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Oops good catch there conq. I didn't finish my math out....I started typing it, got distracted and sent it on w/o reading it again....see what I mean about double checking...lol. What I was trying to say was.... One foot pound of force is equal to 1.36 joules. And there's roughly 25500 foot pounds in a 68/4500 so thats equal to 34680 joules of energy. Once again though, I kind of neglected the sig digs. Dammit conq...gotta go and keep me on my toes don't u
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:24 PM #21
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Quote:
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Dammit conq...gotta go and keep me on my toes don't u
Wouldn't be much of a mod if I didn't.

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