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Old 05-04-2012, 07:06 PM #64
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lets be 100% honest here... if you can cheat in a sport, people will do so. if your on the big stage you dont want to look like the guy who is just dead weight for his team. even if the player tried to wipe it or not, look how many penalties per set their are for people playing on after obvious hits; if you ask me thats worse then wiping it off since its less attention to yourself.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:47 PM #65
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Originally Posted by RORplayer44 View Post
Even I cheat in tournament play.
Oh, "even you" cheat? You must be someone really important, right?

-On Topic-
Making wiping more difficult is really the only answer we have to that particular problem. We can't eliminate it, but it is possible to cut down on it. I mean, look at how slick that Dynasty player had to be to pull that wipe off. I wouldn't exactly call that an everyday occurrence.

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Old 05-04-2012, 11:09 PM #66
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Lie detectors at every event... They just ask if they wiped, the detector knows if they are lying or not.

After a few teams get eliminated, 95% of the cheating would be gone immediately.

Problem solved.

In fishing you can cheat tons of ways, and they do it successfully there, if you get caught cheating, you are out of that league. They don't have cheating problems, and often the prizes are new boats... $50,000 boats...
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:47 PM #67
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Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
Lie detectors at every event... They just ask if they wiped, the detector knows if they are lying or not.

After a few teams get eliminated, 95% of the cheating would be gone immediately.

Problem solved.

In fishing you can cheat tons of ways, and they do it successfully there, if you get caught cheating, you are out of that league. They don't have cheating problems, and often the prizes are new boats... $50,000 boats...
lie detector tests are about 2hours... you want the league to set up like 50 tests going on at once to see if anyone wiped?
and if they did find out they wiped, what can they do about it; replay the point?
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:48 PM #68
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You do know that lie detectors work by sensing the rising heart rate someone has when they're lying, right?

Players just coming off the field after running around diving and getting welted up are going to have so much adrenaline pumping through them it would be impossible to get a definitive reading of truth or not using a polygraph machine.

Not to mention (as azhector said), there is a standard procedure for polygraph tests involving a series of control questions, then mixing those control questions up with crucial ones etc... It's a long drawn out process, not just "ask if they wiped and the detector knows". What are you, 12?

Besides, the cheating has its own remedy: REFS AND PENALTIES. I guarantee you fouls and cheating happen in pro sports, and if the ref doesn't see it or notice, then it's fair game. Basketball and soccer players have refined the art of flopping into an artful strategy that coaches use to win games these days, which you'd know about if you ever watched a game. Or are we supposed to live in this utopia where everyone gets caught for everything bad all the time? Grow up.

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Old 05-05-2012, 12:50 AM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
Lie detectors at every event... They just ask if they wiped, the detector knows if they are lying or not.

After a few teams get eliminated, 95% of the cheating would be gone immediately.

Problem solved.

In fishing you can cheat tons of ways, and they do it successfully there, if you get caught cheating, you are out of that league. They don't have cheating problems, and often the prizes are new boats... $50,000 boats...
A bit of brief reading seems to indicate that only the winners are subject to a test, and that the tests in question are often not as formal or stringent as those that would be administered for legal proceedings. The prospect of a failing a polygraph and subsequent forfeiture of winnings are present mainly as a deterrent.

Sort of like, I dunno; a Yellow or Red Card, A 15 Yd. penalty and loss of down, free throws, penalty kicks, power plays...or maybe 1 for 1's, or 2 for 1's, or 3 for 1's.

Cheating in tournament paintball, whether you like it or not, is handled in a manner that is roughly on par with other professional sports. I don't like to see a guy horse collar tackle, or face mask a player in football, but when they do, there is a penalty assessed. I don't like to see a player, knowingly or not, play on in paintball, but when they do, there is a penalty assessed.

Likewise, referees don't see everything in those other sports, how can they? Why do we expect our referees in paintball to see everything?

To echo what everyone else has said, getting rid of cheating is not the solution. It is not the magic bullet that will suddenly catapult paintball into the public eye and make us so appealing that we take over the world. There is rule bending and cheating in our sport, just like every other sport. There are referees, those referees, for better or worse, dole out consequences. I don't think anyone here is encouraging, or condoning cheating, we are simply saying that it's not the problem you are making it out to be, and it is nowhere near the biggest hurdle that paintball is facing as it tries to progress into the "mainstream"
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:00 PM #70
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Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
Lie detectors at every event... They just ask if they wiped, the detector knows if they are lying or not.

After a few teams get eliminated, 95% of the cheating would be gone immediately.

Problem solved.

In fishing you can cheat tons of ways, and they do it successfully there, if you get caught cheating, you are out of that league. They don't have cheating problems, and often the prizes are new boats... $50,000 boats...
i swear, every thread/post/vid you make, you look dumber by the day on here...

they're going to sit and give a pro psp team ~12 lie detector tests each?
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:32 PM #71
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i swear, every thread/post/vid you make, you look dumber by the day on here...

they're going to sit and give a pro psp team ~12 lie detector tests each?
haha yeah... dude is a tool. He was running some BS on "the other site" about teaching Tony Hawk & Matt Hoffman how to re-brand themselves. Absolute BS.
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Old 05-07-2012, 08:33 PM #72
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Here is my issue with wiping, people act like wiping is equal to holding in football or a foul in basketball, but getting a hit means you are eliminated. The old school scoring method of getting points per eliminated player and points per each man alive at the end of the game, wiping would be more like changing the score. What is the football penalty for a player going to the scoring box and just changing the score themselves?

As for modern paintball scoring, the closest thing I can relate it to with mainstream sports is like a hockey player who was put in the penalty box and goes back out on the ice whenever he wants. I don't know hockey, but what is the penalty for that?

Back on topic...

My main point was that the sport AS A WHOLE needs to grow before professional paintball can be seen as a solid source of income. We keep relating paintball to snow boarding, so I am going to make some guesses that I would like someone to correct me if I am wrong:

Look at Shaun White. Dude is set for 10 lives from the money he has, and he is only getting more and more. That being said, I don't think he has been paid the same way that Tom Brady is paid by the Patriots. The Patriots pay him to play for them. So where does he get his money? Sponsorships. Companies like Red Bull pay him to wear their logos. The thing is that so many people pay attention to him that he is getting them exposure equal to a commercial, plus people think that if he is wearing their logo, he is also endorsing them.

I think in order for pro paintball players to get that kind of sponsorship, the sport as a whole has to be so big that people recognize it even if they don't pay attention to it. And I do think part of that is getting it back on TV (however, that is later on down the road). Sure, paintball is hard to watch. With 5 guys on each team, each one being a potential play maker, and not a single one being the person to watch at any given moment, it is very hard to keep track.

HOWEVER, I think it can be put on TV with the right tweeks. Some things that I think really improve the watch-ability of it include replays. If you could do an instant replay after each good move, then I think it would be as watchable as baseball. It is fairly boring for most of the game, but any big plays are replayed, and with different angles. Also, between games or commercials, they could do something that looks like the pbfashion videos, just like how they do game highlights with baseball or football between commercials.
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:08 PM #73
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haha yeah... dude is a tool. He was running some BS on "the other site" about teaching Tony Hawk & Matt Hoffman how to re-brand themselves. Absolute BS.
Nice "attempt" to call me out... I've had an amazing life so far, life is what you make of it. No one will do it for you...


Here is a little of my history that I wrote years ago. It might take you a while to read through it all...

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I'm lucky to have some amazing friends in the world of BMX and skateboarding. Next time you run into an old freestyler, ask 'em about FreeEnterprise, as I've forgotten more stories than I have told.



but, back on topic, when money is involved the logical step is to use polygraphs for paintball competition.

http://www.bassresource.com/fishing/polygraph.html

No system is perfect, but it would really cut down on the cheating in the sport.
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:25 PM #74
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Polygraph tests at paintball tournaments? That is laughable. Never happen.
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Old 05-12-2012, 01:54 PM #75
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Simple answer is no. Just because people created a "league" doesn't mean a hobby will become a professional sport. Professional lacrosse players all have second and third jobs, and that is the fastest growing sport in the US at the moment. Paintball is not a sport, it is a hobby that we all enjoy, some take it more seriously than others is all. I could not name 1 famous "paintballer" besides Bob Long, and i've been playing recreationaly (spelling?) for 14 years. I HOPE I am wrong, and if anything please use my negative comments as fuel for your fire. I want you to prove me wrong, I just personally think it will never be more than a hobby.
it's nothing more than a hobby to you because you play it as a hobby.
and if you really can't name anyone besides bob long, you're really in the deep shadows of paintball.


plus lax is the fastest growing sport in the U.S? lol. i know literally 1 person who plays. i know more people who race cars than lax players. and talk about a very expensive sport...
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Old 05-12-2012, 02:12 PM #76
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it's nothing more than a hobby to you because you play it as a hobby.
and if you really can't name anyone besides bob long, you're really in the deep shadows of paintball.


plus lax is the fastest growing sport in the U.S? lol. i know literally 1 person who plays. i know more people who race cars than lax players. and talk about a very expensive sport...
You have to be careful with the "fastest growing statistic" If sport "A" has 100,000 participants and next year it has 100,000 more (total 200,000), then it grew by 100%. If sport "B" has 10,000,000 participants one year and grew by another 1,000,000 for a total of 11,000,000, then it only grew 10%. Does that mean that sport "A" grew more or is more popular? Just sayin', statistics can be worded in ways to make them seem like they are something they are not sometimes.

Paintball was the fastest growing extreme sport for a number of years. It was also the smallest and newest and had a long way to go at the time.
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Old 05-12-2012, 03:28 PM #77
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my history that I wrote


You wrote something on the internet! It MUST BE TRUE.
Hey guess what guys! I taught Bob Long everything he knows about manufacturing paintball guns!

Quote:
when money is involved the logical step is to use polygraphs for paintball competition.
I already explained to you why polygraph tests wouldn't work. Go read it, then come back and talk some more ish.

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Old 05-12-2012, 10:29 PM #78
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Look at Shaun White. Dude is set for 10 lives from the money he has, and he is only getting more and more. That being said, I don't think he has been paid the same way that Tom Brady is paid by the Patriots. The Patriots pay him to play for them. So where does he get his money? Sponsorships. Companies like Red Bull pay him to wear their logos. The thing is that so many people pay attention to him that he is getting them exposure equal to a commercial, plus people think that if he is wearing their logo, he is also endorsing them.

I think in order for pro paintball players to get that kind of sponsorship, the sport as a whole has to be so big that people recognize it even if they don't pay attention to it. And I do think part of that is getting it back on TV (however, that is later on down the road). Sure, paintball is hard to watch. With 5 guys on each team, each one being a potential play maker, and not a single one being the person to watch at any given moment, it is very hard to keep track.
This is actually what the NPL is trying to do by focusing the action on a flag that needs to be moved up the field in a certain amount of time. It is actually a pretty interesting format that is being hampered by the league itself.

I think that, in terms of advertising, what paintball players should shoot for is something like this:
(Yes, the English dub sucks. Pretend it was more exciting)

This is Sébastien Foucan, one of the founders of parkour and the creator of freerunning. However, you don't need to know that to enjoy the commercial. The commercial is telling the audience "Look at all this cool **** this guy does, and he wears Nike shoes while doing it."

Just look at some of the videos that are produced by groups like PBFashion or DerDer. Those videos could easily be turned into a steady stream of advertising. Put some players in Gatorade jerseys, have them destroy a team in jerseys labeled "water," and set it to some good music. That would be a very effective advertisement, and the names of the players don't matter.

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Old 05-13-2012, 07:32 AM #79
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hey all - I think this whole thread is off topic.

1) Make the game interesting to watch on TV where the spectators and TV viewers enjoy watching the action w/o knowing anything about the game.

2) Built interest in this format through grass roots efforts until the format reaches critical mass

3) Get real advertisers with real money

4) Money will follow.

IMO: Paintball ain't made it to step one and the first few efforts were epic fails and extremely boring to watch after the first 5 minutes... and once the average TV viewer immediately clicks back over to the animal planet you must admit the format ain't working. I think too many folks are trying to revive a lost cause and clinging to lost hope. The best chance for money: cut the losses and rethink the format.

/end speech.
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:00 AM #80
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I don't understand everyone's obsession with getting paintball on TV. It is a format that doesn't lend itself to flexibility, gives the content creators less control and requires specific subscriptions to actually get some of the channels (or you may not be able to get them at all.)

Live streaming with a charge for very high quality maintains creative control, allows for international sales, can be put out to nearly any computer with a decent internet connection and allows for advertising to be specific to your demographic. Which creates a better ROI for possible advertisers.

The audience you reach with TV is usually smaller and not specific to your demographic is what I'm getting at. It is an archaic barometer by which many people think is the end goal.
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:33 AM #81
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I don't understand everyone's obsession with getting paintball on TV. It is a format that doesn't lend itself to flexibility, gives the content creators less control and requires specific subscriptions to actually get some of the channels (or you may not be able to get them at all.)

Live streaming with a charge for very high quality maintains creative control, allows for international sales, can be put out to nearly any computer with a decent internet connection and allows for advertising to be specific to your demographic. Which creates a better ROI for possible advertisers.

The audience you reach with TV is usually smaller and not specific to your demographic is what I'm getting at. It is an archaic barometer by which many people think is the end goal.
So a sport that started off as a war game in the woods that changed to a war game in certain sized field, that turned into a set field with mirrored bunkers, then the bunkers started to look cool with hyperball fields, then airball isn't flexible? What about when it went from getting points per eliminating + point per person alive at the end of the game + first team to grab the flag + flag hang then to just 1 point per win or get as man wins within a certain time period? What about when it went from camo to power rangers? Pump to pretty much unlimited ROF to capped ROF?

This game is ever changing, and it can change more. A lot of people think that speedball is the definition of paintball, but the simple truth is that there are tons more woodsball/scenario players than speedball, and in the minds of most who don't know a whole lot about paintball think of that kind of paintball. Speedball has the biggest potential for growth, and outside sponsorship.

As for getting paintball on TV, well lets see... without using TV, ever head of MMA, Jersey Shore, Paris Hilton, etc.? TV is a HUGE medium, and a great way to spread the word. That parkour Nike commercial is a PERFECT example. Parkour is a growing sport, yet it has received a whole lot of attention in the media. Off the top of my head, I know it has been in "The Office" and on one of the Daniel Craig "Bond" movies. If you saw that movie, then you might go into the office and say, "That guy running through the construction site was awesome!" Someone else who knows what it is then jumps in and explains it, and now 5 or 6 more people know what parkour is.

The way paintball is portrayed on TV is usually of the woodsball/scenario style. Usually people will post the clip and complain about how they're using safety goggles or taking off their masks.

Imagine though that there was a TV show that had speedball in it. It would only need to be a few minutes, and it could be in that pbfashion format. Right now, we don't need the World Cup broadcast, we just need a few moments to give an example of what it is, show PSP's or NPPL's logo, and Google will do the rest.
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Old 05-13-2012, 10:36 AM #82
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So a sport that started off as a war game in the woods that changed to a war game in certain sized field, that turned into a set field with mirrored bunkers, then the bunkers started to look cool with hyperball fields, then airball isn't flexible? What about when it went from getting points per eliminating + point per person alive at the end of the game + first team to grab the flag + flag hang then to just 1 point per win or get as man wins within a certain time period? What about when it went from camo to power rangers? Pump to pretty much unlimited ROF to capped ROF?

This game is ever changing, and it can change more. A lot of people think that speedball is the definition of paintball, but the simple truth is that there are tons more woodsball/scenario players than speedball, and in the minds of most who don't know a whole lot about paintball think of that kind of paintball. Speedball has the biggest potential for growth, and outside sponsorship.

As for getting paintball on TV, well lets see... without using TV, ever head of MMA, Jersey Shore, Paris Hilton, etc.? TV is a HUGE medium, and a great way to spread the word. That parkour Nike commercial is a PERFECT example. Parkour is a growing sport, yet it has received a whole lot of attention in the media. Off the top of my head, I know it has been in "The Office" and on one of the Daniel Craig "Bond" movies. If you saw that movie, then you might go into the office and say, "That guy running through the construction site was awesome!" Someone else who knows what it is then jumps in and explains it, and now 5 or 6 more people know what parkour is.

The way paintball is portrayed on TV is usually of the woodsball/scenario style. Usually people will post the clip and complain about how they're using safety goggles or taking off their masks.

Imagine though that there was a TV show that had speedball in it. It would only need to be a few minutes, and it could be in that pbfashion format. Right now, we don't need the World Cup broadcast, we just need a few moments to give an example of what it is, show PSP's or NPPL's logo, and Google will do the rest.
I think you misunderstood my whole first point. I was talking about TV as a format being flexible, not paintball. I do not think paintball should have to change because of TV. If paintball changes on its own, that's fine.

I am not even saying that we should not look to have paintball games on TV shows. I am saying that professional paintball, as a broadcasted sport(on tv), should not be the barometer for success. Looking towards have a stable and growing scene by supporting it via online viewing should be paramount.

Let me use an example for you of a niche scene that is very similar to paintball. Competitive gaming has been thrown on TV before and it was an utter mess. Formats needed to change to accommodate for commercials and viewing quality they added games like Dead or Alive and all-girl tournaments that had questionabl value to the viewing audience(in order to make money). It basically gutted how the game was fun to view. I do not want that to happen to paintball. MLG's CEO Sundance DiGiovanni has talked about this a few times[1] and I think that it is very applicable here, building a stable business around watching paintball (or niche competitive gaming) is more important than trying to convert people by broadcasting games.

And while I don't know the viewing numbers for any of the webcasts recently done for paintball I do know that organizations like Dreamhack have posted record numbers recently[2] and other viewership numbers have been rumoured to be higher.

References so you know I'm not just making things up:
http://www.dreamhack.se/dhw11/2011/1...ne-viewership/

http://articles.businessinsider.com/...-league-gaming

Hopefully you can see the angle at which I'm coming at the problem with.

Last edited by Jon Eering : 05-13-2012 at 10:37 AM. Reason: derped, I need to proofread better.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:25 PM #83
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The only problem with paid (or even free) online broadcasting is that you really need to be interested in order to watch it. You can't just flip through webcasts and come across paintball, you have to direct yourself to that site specifically.
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Old 05-13-2012, 06:59 PM #84
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This is partially true. Channel surfing isn't quite the same when dealing with online broadcasts but that isn't to say it is impossible to stumble upon it if you are already using the service. Just use justin.tv as an example you can go on there and watch broadcasts of F1, Tech Shows, even beauty show or two.

Anyways directing people to your broadcast should be a fairly simple thing to do when it isn't being crammed into a horrible timeslot by TV companies.
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