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Old 05-03-2012, 02:49 PM #43
NWilliams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OoZoo View Post
Negative comments = negativism

Last time I checked, negative = negative

If some surfers can screw wheels to a piece of wood, do some flips and become millionaires, so can some guys with good aim and decent paint shooting mechanism.

So lets be realistic
neg·a·tiv·ism (ng-t-vzm)
n.
1. A habitual attitude of skepticism or resistance to the suggestions, orders, or instructions of others.
2. Behavior characterized by persistent refusal, without apparent or logical reasons, to act on or carry out suggestions, orders, or instructions of others.


re·al·ism (r-lzm)
n.
1. An inclination toward literal truth and pragmatism.
2. The representation in art or literature of objects, actions, or social conditions as they actually are, without idealization or presentation in abstract form.


I was honest, or being realistic. It doesn't matter if it is negative to you or not. It isn't in fact being negative. I'm using logic and I'm not refusing the idea, I'm only stating it is not probable. Realistically it isn't.

The "they did it so can we" argument isn't a winner. It doesn't work that way in life.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:57 PM #44
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I like what they are doing with Cameras on the players heads in some games.
You feel more part of the action, its more exciting!
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:47 PM #45
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Lets take a realistic view into how players could be paid to play. Lets put a $50,000/YEAR average per player, 10 players per team, 12 pro teams. That would be $6,000,000 a year for all of the pro players. Where would that money come from? Is paintball bringing in enough money to waste $6mil for, essentially, advertising, on top of all the other advertising?

I think the next step is getting outside sponsors. Not only does that help bring in money, but it also legitimizes it. I think getting large companies on board like Nike/Reebok/Adidas, Pepsi/Coke, Energizer/Duracell, etc.

The first example I can think of is Shaq in the Icyhot commercials. Even if you don't know the NBA that much, you probably know Shaq. Now think the other way, Ollie Lang in an energizer commercial mentioning professional paintball. It would draw interest, and cause people to google it.

Once there is enough interest, then marketing can increase, and the cycle continues to grow the sport. Once it gets to the level where they can charge for tickets at events, then it can REALLY rake in the money.

As for the cost, I think someone has broke it down before comparing the cost of paintball to snowboarding. The end results were surprisingly close. Both have high start ups, and both have ongoing costs (lift tickets). A big advantage to paintball is it can be played year-round, and anywhere. Snowboarding is a winter sport, where available (we know of Canadian paintballing, do you know of Florida snowboarding?).

I think part of what is holding outsiderings from joining in on paintball is what many see it as: a kids sports or an office outing. People regularly play softball, tennis, or rec-soccer, but people don't discuss paintball in the office. The sport needs to handle itself more seriously, and be taken seriously.
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:11 PM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racso
Ollie Lang in an energizer commercial mentioning professional paintball. It would draw interest, and cause people to google it.
"When Dynasty steps out onto the field, there is only one battery they trust. Duracell."
Damn. That would actually work out nicely.
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:27 PM #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSherman View Post
"When Dynasty steps out onto the field, there is only one battery they trust. Duracell."
Damn. That would actually work out nicely.
Yeah, I think that's a very effective campaign...
We also need to keep the videos of stupid kids shooting things with their paintball guns off of YouTube. A minute of searching on YouTube found probably twenty videos of kids being stupid, shooting at cars and signs, and shooting each other for fun. This is bringing paintball down.
Advertising nationwide would create a huge market, not only to the ten-year-old kid playing at his birthday party, but for the twenty-something college student interested in a new sport. Let's get rollin'!
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:30 PM #48
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Originally Posted by Racso View Post
As for the cost, I think someone has broke it down before comparing the cost of paintball to snowboarding. The end results were surprisingly close. Both have high start ups, and both have ongoing costs (lift tickets). A big advantage to paintball is it can be played year-round, and anywhere. Snowboarding is a winter sport, where available (we know of Canadian paintballing, do you know of Florida snowboarding?).
Only difference is that when you buy a lift ticket for a day of snowboarding, you get free passage up the mountain all day for one ticket.

On the other hand, when you buy a case of paint and shoot it all, you have to buy another case and another and another, etc...

If fields would start doing "entry + all the paint you can shoot" days, then it would be equivalent to snowboarding's model. Wholesale paint prices would need to come down considerably to make that achievable for local fields.
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:47 PM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
Only difference is that when you buy a lift ticket for a day of snowboarding, you get free passage up the mountain all day for one ticket.

On the other hand, when you buy a case of paint and shoot it all, you have to buy another case and another and another, etc...

If fields would start doing "entry + all the paint you can shoot" days, then it would be equivalent to snowboarding's model. Wholesale paint prices would need to come down considerably to make that achievable for local fields.
No one is forcing you to shoot a case+ of paint every day. The average recballer with a Tippy probably shoots less than half of that. The average renter can usually be kept happy with a single bag of 500.

I play pump these days, I can usually make it as long as I want on one bag of paint. A whole day of play at my area's most expensive field costs me $40 or so. $10 for field fee, $5 for one HPA fill and then $25 for a bag of paint. Maybe I spend a couple extra dollars on a Gatorade if I don't want water from a jug. That's not exactly breaking the bank, especially by PB standards.

If we could shift a few paradigms relating to how much paint a player needs to shoot to be happy we could change the nature of the game significantly.

As for wholesale paint prices dropping, we'd need to for demand to increase significantly, which obviously presents a bit of a catch 22.
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:13 PM #50
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Originally Posted by JohnSherman View Post
"When Dynasty steps out onto the field, there is only one battery they trust. Duracell."
Damn. That would actually work out nicely.
except...




I don't know much about speedball, but isn't dynasty the team that sponsors the player at 3:50 on this video who clearly cheats to win?

Why would Duracell want to be tied to a player like that? Or a team that allows a player to do that and dishonor them all, and every sponsor that they promote?
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:24 PM #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
except...




I don't know much about speedball, but isn't dynasty the team that sponsors the player at 3:50 on this video who clearly cheats to win?

Why would Duracell want to be tied to a player like that? Or a team that allows a player to do that and dishonor them all, and every sponsor that they promote?
It's so funny that you caught that 3:50 thing right after I did! I saw that yesterday and immediately posted it on my Facebook. Not cool, man.
I think if the cheating is really cracked down on (I know the penalties are high, and the refs do the best they can) and the sport is portrayed as an honorable sport like basketball or hockey or something, then sponsors might jump on board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coenen
No one is forcing you to shoot a case+ of paint every day. The average recballer with a Tippy probably shoots less than half of that. The average renter can usually be kept happy with a single bag of 500.

I play pump these days, I can usually make it as long as I want on one bag of paint. A whole day of play at my area's most expensive field costs me $40 or so. $10 for field fee, $5 for one HPA fill and then $25 for a bag of paint. Maybe I spend a couple extra dollars on a Gatorade if I don't want water from a jug. That's not exactly breaking the bank, especially by PB standards.

If we could shift a few paradigms relating to how much paint a player needs to shoot to be happy we could change the nature of the game significantly.

As for wholesale paint prices dropping, we'd need to for demand to increase significantly, which obviously presents a bit of a catch 22.
I've been trying to change that paradigm for years. I used to play an entire day on a half-bag of paint (with a blowback, mind you). Now I shoot slightly more so it becomes a half-case or so, which is still pretty good considering most people shoot a case and a half per day, which at $45 a case is about $63 in paint. Not to mention field fees, air refills, and batteries. I usually end up spending around $35 for one day of play. $20 for entry and all-day air, and $15 in paint. If I'm playing with an electronic, I have a rechargeable battery, which is a one-time investment. So, I spend half of what typical people pay to play!
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:40 PM #52
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I really don't see how cheating is the thing keeping big sponsors away. I'm not saying I approve of it, but every professional sport has (usually worse) cheating scandals. Between steroids (every sport), fighting fans (basketball), paying people to headhunt (football), or using illegal parts (nascar), every sport has its cheaters. big time sponsors will come when they see that investing in the sport will give them a good return. that might mean the psp has to offer cheap advertising spots for a few years, or that they charge a bit more until they can afford to get their own advertisements put on espn, if they can't get events televised outright.

bottom line, paintball does a pretty good job policing cheaters when they are caught with one for one's and the box on majors
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:04 PM #53
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No one is forcing you to shoot a case+ of paint every day. The average recballer with a Tippy probably shoots less than half of that. The average renter can usually be kept happy with a single bag of 500.
We're talking about proffessional paintball gaining popularity. That doesn't include renters, or people who own Tippman guns. The idea is to get those people to buy their own equipment because they won't have to spend as much on paint.

Quote:
I play pump these days, I can usually make it as long as I want on one bag of paint. A whole day of play at my area's most expensive field costs me $40 or so. $10 for field fee, $5 for one HPA fill and then $25 for a bag of paint. Maybe I spend a couple extra dollars on a Gatorade if I don't want water from a jug. That's not exactly breaking the bank, especially by PB standards.
"Look at me, I shoot pump! I'm better than you because I shoot less paint!"

Pumpers with this attitude are the worst. I hate running into them at the rec field, all they do is go on and on and on about how little paint they shoot; and then during an actual game, they sit behind a bunker the entire game and get shot up constantly.

Quote:
If we could shift a few paradigms relating to how much paint a player needs to shoot to be happy we could change the nature of the game significantly.
It's not about "being happy", it's about getting your opponent out. If that takes a bag of 500, then so be it.

We're talking about PROFFESSIONAL PAINTBALL, not self-righteous pump players who dump all over speedball players for shooting lots of paint. Look at the title of the thread, and stop talking about how you play pump (if you can), it's completely irrelevant.

Quote:
As for wholesale paint prices dropping, we'd need to for demand to increase significantly, which obviously presents a bit of a catch 22.
More people buying their own gear = more people buying paint = increased demand. Economics 101.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:27 PM #54
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Professional paintball could eliminate 95% of the cheating tomorrow if they did what bass fishing does...

I have friends that fish competitively, and the top guys are often subjected to a lie detector test after a competition, if they fail the test, they don't win the money...
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:38 PM #55
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Cheating isn't keeping sponsors away. Next.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:41 PM #56
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No, but rampant cheating keeps people from caring about it and wanting to watch it, which not enough people WANTING to watch it keeps sponsors away. So indirectly, it does.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:03 PM #57
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I think if the cheating is really cracked down on (I know the penalties are high, and the refs do the best they can) and the sport is portrayed as an honorable sport like basketball or hockey or something, then sponsors might jump on board.
You had me until this sentence. Basketball is a sport that has basically turned fouling into an offensive strategy. While I enjoy fistfights in hockey, I would be hesitant to call it an honorable sport either. Dirty checks (Raffi Torres' hit on Hossa comes to mind) aren't a good image either, yet those players are still held as idols by fans of the sport.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:07 PM #58
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You had me until this sentence. Basketball is a sport that has basically turned fouling into an offensive strategy. While I enjoy fistfights in hockey, I would be hesitant to call it an honorable sport either. Dirty checks (Raffi Torres' hit on Hossa comes to mind) aren't a good image either, yet those players are still held as idols by fans of the sport.
Sorry, bad example.
How about baseball and water polo?
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:10 PM #59
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Why would Duracell want to be tied to a player like that? Or a team that allows a player to do that and dishonor them all, and every sponsor that they promote?
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:12 PM #60
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:16 PM #61
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Looks like he has a footlong turkey on wheat. Untoasted.
Sorry, Subway worker...
Noah

Yeah, cheating and other such offences I suppose doesn't have too much to do with sponsorships...Michael Phelps apparently is with Subway...
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:07 PM #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeEnterprise View Post
I don't know much about speedball, but isn't dynasty the team that sponsors the player at 3:50 on this video who clearly cheats to win?

Why would Duracell want to be tied to a player like that? Or a team that allows a player to do that and dishonor them all, and every sponsor that they promote?
Cheating is A problem, not THE problem. It is certainly not the biggest problem. We've already mentioned fouling in basketball being used as an offensive strategy. We also see so-called "Hard Fouls" on players which are designed to do little more than intimidate them when they're in the lane. Hockey was mentioned as well, so I'll leave that out.

Biggest offender, The NFL. Flags are thrown in the NFL for rule infractions and personal fouls every game. If your assertion that cheating harms the product in the eyes of sponsors were true then sponsors should be running away screaming from the Pro Football. Instead, they're lining up to pay millions for a chance to sponsor games, have their names on stadiums, or buy air time during telecasts.



Now on to the post I'm REALLY interested in responding to...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
Only difference is that when you buy a lift ticket for a day of snowboarding, you get free passage up the mountain all day for one ticket.

On the other hand, when you buy a case of paint and shoot it all, you have to buy another case and another and another, etc...

If fields would start doing "entry + all the paint you can shoot" days, then it would be equivalent to snowboarding's model. Wholesale paint prices would need to come down considerably to make that achievable for local fields.
These assertions led to the post that you got your panties twisted about. I don't believe they say a damn thing about pro paintball, or pro snowboarding. IN MY OPINION, you seem to be referring to participation in both activities as they would be experienced at the local level by a "regular player."

I doubt Shaun White pays for a lift ticket, and I don't think there are too many Professional Paintball Teams out there worrying about whether or not they can afford their next case of paint. Maybe I'm wrong there. Are you speaking from Pro Snowboarding & Pro Paintball experience there?
Quote:
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We're talking about proffessional paintball gaining popularity. That doesn't include renters, or people who own Tippman guns. The idea is to get those people to buy their own equipment because they won't have to spend as much on paint.
YOU brought up the price of paintball in a recreational context as versus another activity (snowboarding). I believe that makes my comment relevant. Since we've already established that professional participants in both of the sports you mentioned are generally not faced with the costs that you mentioned. I guess that would make YOUR comment irrelevant.

The idea such as it is, is to lower the perceived cost of paintball in general to the point where enough people feel that it is accessible that participation can grow to a point that will allow the industry to support true "Professional" teams. You mentioned shooting lots of paint as a point for why paintball isn't successful. The truth is that you don't need to shoot lots of paint, and truthfully the majority of the players (Renters and Recballers) in the sport, DON'T shoot a lot of paint.
Quote:
"Look at me, I shoot pump! I'm better than you because I shoot less paint!"

Pumpers with this attitude are the worst. I hate running into them at the rec field, all they do is go on and on and on about how little paint they shoot; and then during an actual game, they sit behind a bunker the entire game and get shot up constantly.
My only assertion was that I pay less to play. I play paintball, I shoot people, sometimes people shoot me back, that's how the game works.

People in the paintball community continually bring up price as a road block to growth. If we would like Professional Paintball to grow, the whole sport has to grow, otherwise the dollars aren't going to be there to support the upper echelon of the game in the method we're suggesting. The notion that players MUST buy and shoot tons of paint every time out drives people out of the game. Believe it. Without that base participation, there will not be enough money coming into the industry at large to feed the "Pros" and tournament paintball as a whole.
Quote:
It's not about "being happy", it's about getting your opponent out. If that takes a bag of 500, then so be it.
I'm sorry you feel that way. It's too bad that playing paintball, a sport that many of us love with all our hearts, is no longer about being happy for you. I'm sure you've watched a pro-game or two, or maybe a played a few tournaments, are people not happy to be there? Happy to have a chance to participate? Happy to win games? Elated to win events? Happy to live the dream? It's about being happy my man.

As for keeping players happy, if we intend to grow the game, we need to keep the players who are feeding the industry happy. Not a couple hundred "Pro Players." The 10,000,000 Tippmann guys and renters. If they're not happy, Paintball as a whole is in trouble. The current thinking is that for some reason every body needs to shoot a ton of paint every day in order to enjoy paintball, that simply isn't true. There are alternatives. Pump is one. Mechanical is another. Those players don't shoot a lot of paint, and they still have a blast on the field. The more fun they have the more they play, the more they play, the more they can feed the industry.
Quote:
We're talking about PROFFESSIONAL PAINTBALL, not self-righteous pump players who dump all over speedball players for shooting lots of paint. Look at the title of the thread, and stop talking about how you play pump (if you can), it's completely irrelevant.
We're talking about where this game can go, and how it's going to get there. YOU appear to be talking out your ***.
Quote:
More people buying their own gear = more people buying paint = increased demand. Economics 101.
There's the rub though. If the game is perceived as being "so expensive" then people will spend their money elsewhere. If no one is coming into the sport due to perceived price, then there is no increased demand. Without that increased demand, the industry cannot reach the economies of scale necessary for the price to drop in any meaningful way. Economics 101 indeed.

Hence the necessary cost-paradigm shifting at the lower end of the game to drive participation and allow expansion.
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Yeah, cheating and other such offences I suppose doesn't have too much to do with sponsorships...Michael Phelps apparently is with Subway...
Noah
Noah, why shouldn't Subway support Phelps? He's got the munchies, Subway can sell him a $5 Footlong. That is a match made in heaven.
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:14 PM #63
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lol @ all this cheating talk like its holding back the sport. you noobs need to realize cheating will NEVER be gone in paintball. Even I cheat in tournament play. I didnt pay and waste my time not to give it my all.
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