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Old 04-25-2012, 10:51 AM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceguy View Post
I care and I think it sucks.

Let's see how well the stand your ground defense works for them. I wonder if those black people will be seen as the innocent victims protecting their neighborhood from a stray white person. They just wanted to question him and, for some reason, he went crazy so they had to kill him in self defense. There was no other option. They felt their lives were in danger.

I think that's a crappy system, but the people here that want to live in the wild west think that defense is perfectly fine.

That jerks do stupid things is bad. The law protecting jerks when they do stupid things is worse.
If you opened the paper, would you rather read stories of a woman being raped and murdered in an ally and a mugging victim stabbed while walking home through gang territory, OR would you rather read woman shoots sexual predator in self defense or a gang member shot while trying to rob a man who has a concealed weapons licence?
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:54 AM #86
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Originally Posted by corporationpaintball View Post
I'm a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment, I'm from Vermont- guns are what we do up here. In this case, however, the law in Florida is just plain stupid. It's called equal force, you can't kill someone who doesn't have the capacity to do the same to you.

For example, you can't shoot someone in the face after they punch you, that's just crazy. If they have a weapon and are threatening you or others then yes, by all means, protect yourself. But this preemptive killing is state-sanctioned murder. Zimmerman would be going to jail in most other states and rightfully so. Even if he was harmed in the scuffle, he went looking for the fight and used a firearm on a child who was unarmed.

And don't make this about skin color, Zimmerman may or may not have, however, that is a fact that only he knows for sure so beyond that would just be speculation. Keep to the facts of the case.
so if a over 6 foot tall footballl player is on top of you, slamming your head into a sidewalk, and you have a concealed weapons licence that you shouldn't use it because he doesn't have a weapon? do you have to have a weapon to kill somebody? would you fear for your life if you were in that situation?
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:56 AM #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corporationpaintball View Post
I'm a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment, I'm from Vermont- guns are what we do up here. In this case, however, the law in Florida is just plain stupid. It's called equal force, you can't kill someone who doesn't have the capacity to do the same to you.

For example, you can't shoot someone in the face after they punch you, that's just crazy. If they have a weapon and are threatening you or others then yes, by all means, protect yourself. But this preemptive killing is state-sanctioned murder. Zimmerman would be going to jail in most other states and rightfully so. Even if he was harmed in the scuffle, he went looking for the fight and used a firearm on a child who was unarmed.

And don't make this about skin color, Zimmerman may or may not have, however, that is a fact that only he knows for sure so beyond that would just be speculation. Keep to the facts of the case.
I can kill you wtih my fists, I can beat you to death, but lets pick apart the rest of your argument

1)Child: The now dead hoodlum was NOT a child, he was a KNOWN criminal.
2)It doesnt matter if he went "looking for a fight" the moment his life was in danger he has(as should EVERYONE) the right to defend his life.

Equel force is not the law, its defence of life. Perhaps once you, and the rest of the bleeding hearts get this in your head. The fact that criminals will NOT obey the laws, that the only way to protect ourseleves (the law abideing citizens) is to arm ourselves. THEN we can have a civil and peaceful society.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:01 AM #88
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Originally Posted by tsbalr120 View Post
so if a over 6 foot tall footballl player is on top of you, slamming your head into a sidewalk, and you have a concealed weapons licence that you shouldn't use it because he doesn't have a weapon? do you have to have a weapon to kill somebody? would you fear for your life if you were in that situation?
Why is a 6 foot tall (that's shorter than I am) football player (how would I know this?) be slamming my head into a sidewalk? Did I start the fight or am I being attacked randomly? How could I shoot someone after having my head hit against a sidewalk in the first place?


You see, the more hypothetical you get the more hypothetical I can get. I've been doing this for years now because I work in a law office. The majority of our cases are criminal so I know a thing or two about criminal law.

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I can kill you wtih my fists, I can beat you to death, but lets pick apart the rest of your argument

1)Child: The now dead hoodlum was NOT a child, he was a KNOWN criminal.
2)It doesnt matter if he went "looking for a fight" the moment his life was in danger he has(as should EVERYONE) the right to defend his life.

Equel force is not the law, its defence of life. Perhaps once you, and the rest of the bleeding hearts get this in your head. The fact that criminals will NOT obey the laws, that the only way to protect ourseleves (the law abideing citizens) is to arm ourselves. THEN we can have a civil and peaceful society.
Nice to see you OB, been a while since we last got into it... as you can see the color of my username has changed a wee bit as well.

You'd have to try, and not to sound like an e-badass, but you'd have to try fairly hard.

1) Hoodlum, nice way to dehumanize him so that you don't have the face the fact that he was in fact a child. I have completed a degree in criminology, don't try that with me OB, I know that trick. He was not KNOWN to Zimmerman, thus that fact holds no weight.
2) Actually it does because he initiated the contact, thus he is the aggressor not the victim. That law is the most backwards, idiotic thing I have read in years. It makes MA's gun control laws look good it's so bad. You DO NOT have the right to kill someone after they beat your *** for attacking them. That's not how justice works, the kid could have killed Zimmerman and plead self defense.

Zimmerman was a criminal just as much as Treyvon, don't forget that fact. Making him out to be some sort of martyr or saint is laughable. Feel free to arm yourself, but that doesn't mean it's open season on anyone who you start a fight with then kill. That is not justice in the manner that this nation was founded, if you want that move to Somalia.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:08 AM #89
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Overbear like to pretend is ignorance is just as good as the opinions of people formally trained in the topic of discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corporationpaintball View Post
I'm a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment, I'm from Vermont- guns are what we do up here. In this case, however, the law in Florida is just plain stupid. It's called equal force, you can't kill someone who doesn't have the capacity to do the same to you.

For example, you can't shoot someone in the face after they punch you, that's just crazy. If they have a weapon and are threatening you or others then yes, by all means, protect yourself. But this preemptive killing is state-sanctioned murder. Zimmerman would be going to jail in most other states and rightfully so. Even if he was harmed in the scuffle, he went looking for the fight and used a firearm on a child who was unarmed.

And don't make this about skin color, Zimmerman may or may not have, however, that is a fact that only he knows for sure so beyond that would just be speculation. Keep to the facts of the case.
People have been convicted in shootings even with the law in place. There has to be a threat present that a reasonable person would believe may result in death or severe bodily harm to you or another individual. The determination what constitutes self defense is not changed, the law simply protects the individual from civil or criminal charges once it had been deemed so by the police. I can not see anything wrong with that.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:14 AM #90
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Originally Posted by Tafari Makonnen View Post
People have been convicted in shootings even with the law in place. There has to be a threat present that a reasonable person would believe may result in death or severe bodily harm to you or another individual. The determination what constitutes self defense is not changed, the law simply protects the individual from civil or criminal charges once it had been deemed so by the police. I can not see anything wrong with that.
What reasonable person shoots to death an unarmed child in a suburban neighborhood? Zimmerman followed him, what happened after that is speculation until the trigger was pulled. And that's not true, it allows self defense to be used preemptively instead of proactively. It is all in the nuance of the language and how it's written.

A metaphor would be that the self defense law in Florida is a gate which one passes through while in most other states it is a wall that you must leap over.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:19 AM #91
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Initiating contact =/= starting a fight.

Zimmerman could have very easily just simply walked up to Trayvon and said:

"Hey dude, I'm the head of neighborhood watch. No offense, but we've had some break-ins around here lately, and I don't recognize you. Mind if I ask what's up?"... that would hardly be instigating a fight.

Trayvon could have also just as easily replied "Ohh, no worries dude, I'm just walking back to my dad's place." and that would've been the end of it.

Now, we all know that's not how it actually went down.

So that leaves three scenarios...

A) Zimmerman rolled up in a threatening manner and Trayvon attempted to defend himself.

B) Zimmerman approached in a civil manner and Trayvon attacked.

C) Trayvon notices Zimmerman following and attacked before Zimmerman could explain what he was doing.

Either way, I don't think either party handled the situation the way they should have.

EDIT: Corporation, I find it funny that you chastise OB for using the word 'hoodlum' to "dehumanize" Trayvon, because, as you stated, Trayvon was unknown to Zimmerman. Yet you insist on continually referring to him as an 'unarmed child' in an attempt to sensationalize your point of view. Both possible descriptions were equally unknown to Zimmerman, so your description holds exactly as much weight as OB's.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:26 AM #92
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My personal opinion of the events is Zimmerman was an idiot for going out and confronting the kid. You don't go looking for trouble. Deadly force is a last resort, and you should never insert yourself inter a situation where you might be forced to use it for no good reason.

The way I see this though is being stupid isn't a crime. Just because he went and very foolishly confronted the kid and was attacked (if that is in fact what took place) he should have to take a severe beating. If the police on the scene had reason to believe he had just shot the kid or started the fight he would have been arrested a long time ago (or one would hope). When The trial starts we will get to see the evidence and make a reasonable assessment of the events, right now it is just speculation. The jury will decide if he had reason to believe he was in danger and needed to defend himself, or if he provoked the fight and needs to be jailed for it.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:35 AM #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corporationpaintball View Post
What reasonable person shoots to death an unarmed child in a suburban neighborhood? Zimmerman followed him, what happened after that is speculation until the trigger was pulled. And that's not true, it allows self defense to be used preemptively instead of proactively. It is all in the nuance of the language and how it's written.

A metaphor would be that the self defense law in Florida is a gate which one passes through while in most other states it is a wall that you must leap over.
Stop, you need to quit with the "child" crap ok, He was 6'+ tall, and 17, in the eyes of the law quite capable of beind judged an adult in criminal court.

He was no more a child than you are. He attacked first, he tried to kill Mr. Zimmerman, and got what he deserved. If you live violent you die violent, and I would have done EXACTLY the same thing in Zimmerman's place...without the apologie in court. My words to his parents would have been "your son was a violent sociopath bent on killing me, may his soul rot in hell"(*note* not that I believe in hell)
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:38 AM #94
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Interesting tidbit; Trayvon's myspace says he (was) 19.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:07 PM #95
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Probably because he lied about his age to make an account there when he was younger. Why does that matter?
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:11 PM #96
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That's one possibility. Or maybe Trayvon viewed himself (and wished others to view him) as a man rather than a child.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:22 PM #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
Initiating contact =/= starting a fight.

Zimmerman could have very easily just simply walked up to Trayvon and said:

"Hey dude, I'm the head of neighborhood watch. No offense, but we've had some break-ins around here lately, and I don't recognize you. Mind if I ask what's up?"... that would hardly be instigating a fight.

Trayvon could have also just as easily replied "Ohh, no worries dude, I'm just walking back to my dad's place." and that would've been the end of it.

Now, we all know that's not how it actually went down.

So that leaves three scenarios...

A) Zimmerman rolled up in a threatening manner and Trayvon attempted to defend himself.

B) Zimmerman approached in a civil manner and Trayvon attacked.

C) Trayvon notices Zimmerman following and attacked before Zimmerman could explain what he was doing.

Either way, I don't think either party handled the situation the way they should have.

EDIT: Corporation, I find it funny that you chastise OB for using the word 'hoodlum' to "dehumanize" Trayvon, because, as you stated, Trayvon was unknown to Zimmerman. Yet you insist on continually referring to him as an 'unarmed child' in an attempt to sensationalize your point of view. Both possible descriptions were equally unknown to Zimmerman, so your description holds exactly as much weight as OB's.
"Initiating contact" is being the person who starts the conflict. That's how it works. If he had not "initiated contact" the this would not be happening, thus he is the responsible party.

You don't know what happened any more than anybody else so I'm just going to ignore the scenarios as hearsay. I could waste my time coming up with my own, but at the end of the day they are trivial and pointless.

That isn't sensationalizing, that's a fact. He was a minor and unarmed, thus an unarmed child. Hell, I consider people under the age of 20 to be children because most are too immature to handle life.

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My personal opinion of the events is Zimmerman was an idiot for going out and confronting the kid. You don't go looking for trouble. Deadly force is a last resort, and you should never insert yourself inter a situation where you might be forced to use it for no good reason.

The way I see this though is being stupid isn't a crime. Just because he went and very foolishly confronted the kid and was attacked (if that is in fact what took place) he should have to take a severe beating. If the police on the scene had reason to believe he had just shot the kid or started the fight he would have been arrested a long time ago (or one would hope). When The trial starts we will get to see the evidence and make a reasonable assessment of the events, right now it is just speculation. The jury will decide if he had reason to believe he was in danger and needed to defend himself, or if he provoked the fight and needs to be jailed for it.
I agree, that is the point I am trying to make, I'm also trying to point out how dysfunctional the law is in FL. I'm in support of home defense laws, it's your home so you have the right to protect it. However, when you go looking for trouble you lose the right to claim self defense, even if the other person "attacks" you because you incited the attack.

Let me explain: If Zimmerman was walking along, mind his own business, and Treyvon jumped him then yes, Zimmerman could defend himself with lethal force as a last resort. I certainly don't expect someone to shoot to wound in a self defense situation, I wouldn't. However, when
Zimmerman followed Treyvon he became the aggressor and thus lost his ability to claim self defense.

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Stop, you need to quit with the "child" crap ok, He was 6'+ tall, and 17, in the eyes of the law quite capable of beind judged an adult in criminal court.

He was no more a child than you are. He attacked first, he tried to kill Mr. Zimmerman, and got what he deserved. If you live violent you die violent, and I would have done EXACTLY the same thing in Zimmerman's place...without the apologie in court. My words to his parents would have been "your son was a violent sociopath bent on killing me, may his soul rot in hell"(*note* not that I believe in hell)
17, thus still a child in the eyes of the law. A court would have to rule to charge him as an adult so he is still a child. The age of 18 is when someone passes from childhood into adulthood, legal speaking of course, in the United States. Anything else along those lines I need to clear up?

Is that supposed to be a slight towards me? You know better than to try to get me going OB... if public defenders can't rile me up during cross I don't see how you'd be able to.

Zimmerman lived violently too, you shouldn't ignore that fact. If you live violently then you die violently.

We all know about your ability to rationalize killing, which is ironically enough, a trait carried by many sociopaths. That and the lack of guilt for your actions despite hurting people.

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Interesting tidbit; Trayvon's myspace says he is 19.
Mine probably says I'm 28 now... (I'm not)

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Probably because he lied about his age to make an account there when he was younger. Why does that matter?
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:28 PM #98
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However, when
Zimmerman followed Treyvon he became the aggressor and thus lost his ability to claim self defense.
I don't think that's true at all. And, that's not really the issue because Martin approach Zimmerman after Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and was returning to his car. Martin was the aggressor because he escalated a reasonable discussion when he punched Zimmerman in the face.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:30 PM #99
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Your ability to pick and choose pieces of a story to fit your pre-conceived scenarios is incredible.

EDIT: That was directed at Corporation, not AlphaNeo.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:35 PM #100
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Is that supposed to be a slight towards me?

Zimmerman lived violently too, you shouldn't ignore that fact. If you live violently then you die violently.
No, never ment as such.

Zimmerman lived the life of a citizen, he had proper CCW lisenseing and the weapon was bought legaly. If that is "living violently" then you might as well call me a criminal too.

The crimial here was Tryvon(however you spell it?). He was the one who attacked, he was the one who attepted to take a life. He made the choice to walk the path of a hood/gangster in talk, dress, and action. He became a predator who looked to turn anyone in his way into a victim, there should be no tear shed for him, he turned his back on society, and repead the rewards of that. Perhaps next time the criminal in FL will think twice before they try to attack someone.

Zimmerman must now go thru life knowing he took someones life, even thou that life was unworthy of the gift. He must now be hounded by liberal media and people who want to judge him guilty of being alive to tell his story and nothing else.

So once more I ask, and it has yet to be answered. Where are the tears for the hundreds of other deaths in this country every day? How about all the inocent, law abiding citizens who are murdered by the criminal predators every day?
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:49 PM #101
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We all know about your ability to rationalize killing, which is ironically enough, a trait carried by many sociopaths. That and the lack of guilt for your actions despite hurting people.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:04 PM #102
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I don't think that's true at all. And, that's not really the issue because Martin approach Zimmerman after Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and was returning to his car. Martin was the aggressor because he escalated a reasonable discussion when he punched Zimmerman in the face.
If someone is following you you have the right to confront them, obviously getting as far away as possible is the better option, but still an option. If I turned around and some guy was following me I'd want to know why. And the only person who says that is the one who wasn't shot to death so I'll take that statement with a grain of salt. People lie, it's what they do best.

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Your ability to pick and choose pieces of a story to fit your pre-conceived scenarios is incredible.

EDIT: That was directed at Corporation, not AlphaNeo.
I work for a criminal defense firm, it's what I do for a living.

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Originally Posted by Overbear View Post
No, never ment as such.

Zimmerman lived the life of a citizen, he had proper CCW lisenseing and the weapon was bought legaly. If that is "living violently" then you might as well call me a criminal too.

The crimial here was Tryvon(however you spell it?). He was the one who attacked, he was the one who attepted to take a life. He made the choice to walk the path of a hood/gangster in talk, dress, and action. He became a predator who looked to turn anyone in his way into a victim, there should be no tear shed for him, he turned his back on society, and repead the rewards of that. Perhaps next time the criminal in FL will think twice before they try to attack someone.

Zimmerman must now go thru life knowing he took someones life, even thou that life was unworthy of the gift. He must now be hounded by liberal media and people who want to judge him guilty of being alive to tell his story and nothing else.

So once more I ask, and it has yet to be answered. Where are the tears for the hundreds of other deaths in this country every day? How about all the inocent, law abiding citizens who are murdered by the criminal predators every day?
Either way I'm not worried, we go waaaay back OB.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he have a domestic violence charge against him? And owning a gun doesn't make someone violent, you already know my opinions on the crap that is gun control.

That is a good point, but our society is to blame... the media ("liberal" or not) makes its money by reporting what we want to see and right now we want to see Zimmerman on a cross or in a guillotine, either way the media makes money. I completely agree, it's messed up but we only have ourselves to blame for it.

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Originally Posted by $h@key J0nEZ View Post
It's nothing new, OB and I have been bickering about that for years now. We both are against gun control but have very different reasons and rationals for it. It's a bit like fencing, we each get jabs in once in a while.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:11 PM #103
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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
That's one possibility. Or maybe Trayvon viewed himself (and wished others to view him) as a man rather than a child.
Are you ****ing serious? Shut up.

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Originally Posted by corporationpaintball View Post
I agree, that is the point I am trying to make, I'm also trying to point out how dysfunctional the law is in FL. I'm in support of home defense laws, it's your home so you have the right to protect it. However, when you go looking for trouble you lose the right to claim self defense, even if the other person "attacks" you because you incited the attack.
If the jury decides he is responsible for causing the fight, then the law will not help him. I still don't understand your point.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:21 PM #104
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Yes I'm serious, it's not any more implausible than your explanation.

I felt the same way when I was 17.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:23 PM #105
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Corp: in zimmermans statement, he said he followed trayvon to see where he was going, lost sight if him, turned to see which street trayvon walked down, then headed back to his truck to meet the officer, then trayvon came up behind him, if his statement is true, i don't see how zimmerman started the conflict then if trayvon left and came back?
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