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Old 04-20-2012, 11:43 AM #1
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Paint check

Does shooting during a paint check (either by the player being checked or at the player being checked) incur a penalty? And hoe severe
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:46 AM #2
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Depending on the context, it could result in a penalty. The severity depends on several factors, such as how many people you shoot, where you're hit, and if your gun is within the rof/velocity limits. It's in good taste to stop shooting when a referee is checking you. If you keep shooting, it tells the ref that you intend to play on, which may result in a minor/major if they find a hit.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:52 AM #3
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Unless the ref tells you to stop and pulls you while doing a paint check, continue shooting. Hell, I have refs tell me to continue shooting when I stopped shooting when he was doing the check. Be aware just because they call you clean, it does not automatically mean your clean, especially if you hang the flag. Learned this the hard way, ref called me clean, hung the flag, got called for a dirty hang because the ref missed a top of the head shot (I was the last alive, so forced to hang).
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:04 PM #4
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i generally stop unless Im last man and about to get run down, had a ref last event tell me to keep playing as he checked me so its really situational.
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:23 PM #5
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refs usually will have you continue to shoot most of the time.
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:27 PM #6
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Originally Posted by p8ntninja View Post
Unless the ref tells you to stop and pulls you while doing a paint check, continue shooting. Hell, I have refs tell me to continue shooting when I stopped shooting when he was doing the check. Be aware just because they call you clean, it does not automatically mean your clean, especially if you hang the flag. Learned this the hard way, ref called me clean, hung the flag, got called for a dirty hang because the ref missed a top of the head shot (I was the last alive, so forced to hang).
if youre forced to hang the flag in an xball event and time isnt a factor to you you can always just stand there with the flag and wait til the other team concedes the point
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:18 PM #7
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:23 PM #8
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most of the time i continue shooting, reason i do is because if im clean, then there is no reason for me to stop defending myself and pulling myself from the fight, but as soon as the ref tugs at my jersey and says your hit, then i immediately stop and walk off, but most of the time the refs have told me to keep playing mid check
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:55 PM #9
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Keep playing until told otherwise.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:59 PM #10
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If a ref is checking you and he finds a hit in an obvious area and you are shooting, that can be considered as playing on and he can pull pull a penalty. If it is in an unobvious area, then he shouldn't.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:13 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ughuskie26 View Post
if youre forced to hang the flag in an xball event and time isnt a factor to you you can always just stand there with the flag and wait til the other team concedes the point
i forget which league (either psp or nppl) now makes your team concede the point if your not making forward progress with the flag; i remember watching a point where the players are making sure they are all clean and they lost the point because they took too much time (the announcers clarified the event) id imagine it was in galveston since i didnt watch phoenix and HB webcast was a joke
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:35 PM #12
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if youre forced to hang the flag in an xball event and time isnt a factor to you you can always just stand there with the flag and wait til the other team concedes the point
Other than what has already been mentioned, there is also a question of position to be considered here, if you guys are behind, wasting time and hoping for a concession may not be the best idea.

Paintchecks...as has been said, generally you should play through them. However you probably want to stay in the same place, and not do anything too radical while the ref is checking you. Nothing quite so shady as a player that suddenly wants to get up and run the field the second a ref heads over to check him, or a guy who is suddenly all about hugging his bunker super tight in one spot while the ref is trying to check there.

Basically, if you play the situation with some sense of dignity and fair-play you're generally going to get the benefit of the doubt, even if it turns out that you're hit. If you try deliberately obstruct the ref from getting a good chance to check you, either by bumping spots, or moving behind your bunker, obviously your chances of getting a favorable judgement fall, and your chances of getting a 1-for-1 increase.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:33 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azhector View Post
i forget which league (either psp or nppl) now makes your team concede the point if your not making forward progress with the flag; i remember watching a point where the players are making sure they are all clean and they lost the point because they took too much time (the announcers clarified the event) id imagine it was in galveston since i didnt watch phoenix and HB webcast was a joke
definitely not psp as I watch the phoenix webcasts and watched teams hold the flag to get the other team to concede the point.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:55 PM #14
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depends on the type of play:

Non-tournament style play (open play, walk on, etc.) stop shooting.

Tournament style play (including open play with all tourney players, scrimmage, etc), don't stop. Most tourney rules say that you're a fully live player when being checked. If you can be shot, you can shoot back.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:37 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyballer099639 View Post
If a ref is checking you and he finds a hit in an obvious area and you are shooting, that can be considered as playing on and he can pull pull a penalty. If it is in an unobvious area, then he shouldn't.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:31 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racso View Post
If you can be shot, you can shoot back.
By that logic, you can spin on somebody after they bunker you.

There are a lot of people saying "keep playing" but not many people understand the rules that apply in this situation. That being said, I'd like to quote a few lines from the PSP rulebook on this subject. The PSP rulebook is the national standard and as such everyone should pay attention.

3.4.2.(3). An “inactive” player is a previously active player who has not been eliminated and has an unobvious hit.
3.4.3. An inactive player will be eliminated by a judge.
3.4.5. Under no circumstances may an inactive player be made active.
3.4.6. A player being approached by an official may not advance. Players who advance to avoid an official will be assessed a major penalty.
3.8.9. Unobvious hits are any valid hit that is not obvious. A player with an unobvious hit is inactive and will be eliminated by a judge.
3.8.9.1. An inactive player eliminated by a judge due to an unobvious hit not observed by the judge will be assessed a minor penalty.
3.8.10. A player who becomes aware of an unobvious hit on themselves or equipment in their possession is eliminated.

So what does this mean?

1. If you are hit in an unobvious location, you are an inactive player until a judge eliminates you.
2. You may not return to active (shooting) status if you are an inactive player.
3. If you move from your bunker while being checked, you will receive a major.
4. If the ref doesn't see you get shot, but finds a hit - the exact situation we're talking about - you will receive a minor.
5. If you know about the hit, your status has changed from inactive to eliminated.

In simple terms, if you keep playing, you will likely receive a penalty. The natural thought process of a ref is to find the hit, determine your intentions, and act accordingly. If you call for a check in an unobvious location and do not shoot, you obviously do not intend to play on and as such a ref may just call you out rather than assessing the required penalty. If you are getting checked and you shoot your gun, that signals to the ref that you intend to play on and you are very likely to receive a penalty. What you do is your choice. Just know that if you shoot your gun while being checked, expect a penalty should the ref find a hit.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:00 AM #17
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Originally Posted by azhector View Post
i forget which league (either psp or nppl) now makes your team concede the point if your not making forward progress with the flag; i remember watching a point where the players are making sure they are all clean and they lost the point because they took too much time (the announcers clarified the event) id imagine it was in galveston since i didnt watch phoenix and HB webcast was a joke

you can wait in psp..i was watching pheonix and teams would sit behind a bunker so the people in the pits couldnt see them and wait for the team to concede. only if they were winning of course..you wouldnt do that if you were behind
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:56 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racso View Post
depends on the type of play:

Non-tournament style play (open play, walk on, etc.) stop shooting.

Tournament style play (including open play with all tourney players, scrimmage, etc), don't stop. Most tourney rules say that you're a fully live player when being checked. If you can be shot, you can shoot back.
last time i went i would stop and the refs always told me to keep shooting (walk-on day) so i dont think thats always right
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Originally Posted by ughuskie26 View Post
you can wait in psp..i was watching pheonix and teams would sit behind a bunker so the people in the pits couldnt see them and wait for the team to concede. only if they were winning of course..you wouldnt do that if you were behind
i guess it was nppl then. thank you for clarifying
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:13 PM #19
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By that logic, you can spin on somebody after they bunker you.

There are a lot of people saying "keep playing" but not many people understand the rules that apply in this situation. That being said, I'd like to quote a few lines from the PSP rulebook on this subject. The PSP rulebook is the national standard and as such everyone should pay attention.

3.4.2.(3). An “inactive” player is a previously active player who has not been eliminated and has an unobvious hit.
3.4.3. An inactive player will be eliminated by a judge.
3.4.5. Under no circumstances may an inactive player be made active.
3.4.6. A player being approached by an official may not advance. Players who advance to avoid an official will be assessed a major penalty.
3.8.9. Unobvious hits are any valid hit that is not obvious. A player with an unobvious hit is inactive and will be eliminated by a judge.
3.8.9.1. An inactive player eliminated by a judge due to an unobvious hit not observed by the judge will be assessed a minor penalty.
3.8.10. A player who becomes aware of an unobvious hit on themselves or equipment in their possession is eliminated.

So what does this mean?

1. If you are hit in an unobvious location, you are an inactive player until a judge eliminates you.
2. You may not return to active (shooting) status if you are an inactive player.
3. If you move from your bunker while being checked, you will receive a major.
4. If the ref doesn't see you get shot, but finds a hit - the exact situation we're talking about - you will receive a minor.
5. If you know about the hit, your status has changed from inactive to eliminated.

In simple terms, if you keep playing, you will likely receive a penalty. The natural thought process of a ref is to find the hit, determine your intentions, and act accordingly. If you call for a check in an unobvious location and do not shoot, you obviously do not intend to play on and as such a ref may just call you out rather than assessing the required penalty. If you are getting checked and you shoot your gun, that signals to the ref that you intend to play on and you are very likely to receive a penalty. What you do is your choice. Just know that if you shoot your gun while being checked, expect a penalty should the ref find a hit.
Footnote on bottom of page 7:

4 During a point, a player is always active, inactive, or eliminated. Inactive is when a player is out of the point and his shots should not count, but the player would not be expected to know he is out of the point (i.e. the player’s foot touches tapeline, then the player bunkers two people – the player should be eliminated with no penalty and the two people bunkered should be left in). Eliminated is when a player should know they should not still be playing, either because a judge has told them they are eliminated, or because they have an obvious hit, or because they were never on the field at the start of the point to begin with. Thus, when assessing appropriate penalties, a judge must only determine whether the player was active, inactive, or eliminated when the infraction was committed.

3.4.5. Under no circumstances may an inactive player be made active.
3.4.6. A player being approached by an official may not advance. Players who advance to avoid an official will be assessed a major penalty.

Shooting is not advancing.

Also, it really depends on the situation, here is a rule that shines some light on the subject:

3.8.6. A player with an obvious hit that is in a location that the player cannot verify may ask a judge or teammate to verify the hit before proceeding as otherwise required by 3.7.1, but may take no other action.

I highlighted obvious hit because this makes a difference. Basically, it says that if you're hit in an area you would have felt it but couldn't see it (say your back), you can call a paint check, but cannot do anything else. However, I couldn't find a rule about an unobvious hit saying you could or could not do anything.

This is what I would summarize from this: if you call a paint check because you felt something hit you, but can't tell if it broke, don't shoot. If a paint check gets called on you for an unobvious hit, keep shooting. To say that you cannot shoot when a check is called on you means 2 guys could be snapping at each other in the snake, one could call a check on the other, then while he is being check, casually bunker him.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:25 PM #20
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Quote:
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If a ref is checking you and he finds a hit in an obvious area and you are shooting, that can be considered as playing on and he can pull pull a penalty. If it is in an unobvious area, then he shouldn't.
Yeah but keep in mind if he finds a hit in an obvious place and you AREN'T shooting he'll still call a penalty. Sitting behind a bunker with your gun down and a hit between your eyes is just as flagrant as running down the field guns a blazin with an obvious hit

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Old 04-25-2012, 06:03 PM #21
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Yeah but keep in mind if he finds a hit in an obvious place and you AREN'T shooting he'll still call a penalty. Sitting behind a bunker with your gun down and a hit between your eyes is just as flagrant as running down the field guns a blazin with an obvious hit
well if your behind the bunker checking it when the ref comes in your fine (like about to walk off for it); but knowing its there and talking to your team or something will get you a penalty like you said
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