[Reaper (ACI)]

Originally Posted by Cash Money Allstar

...every single one of there maintenance videos lol

They are now sending the Demons out with a DVD instead of a paper manual. I couldn't count on my fingers and toes how many times the term "molykote 55" was used in the multitude of videos.

That's unfortunate.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Having tested Vaseline as lube in the Demon, I would not recommend it, and honestly think it's somewhat of a tall tale that has grown in popularity, mainly because of people with no gun issues continuing to have no gun issues after changing to vaseline, and people having not tried it perpetuating the rumour.

There might be a few that have had positive results, but I would chuck that down to being flukes.

My personal experience, is that Vaseline meant needing to lube more frequently as well as increased FSDO and general drop off issues.

[Reaper (ACI)]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

Having tested Vaseline as lube in the Demon, I would not recommend it, and honestly think it's somewhat of a tall tale that has grown in popularity, mainly because of people with no gun issues continuing to have no gun issues after changing to vaseline, and people having not tried it perpetuating the rumour.

There might be a few that have had positive results, but I would chuck that down to being flukes.

My personal experience, is that Vaseline meant needing to lube more frequently as well as increased FSDO and general drop off issues.

Oh, okay, well you're wrong.

I'll give you the incredibly high probability that there are a lot of people who would have never had issues, that may have tried this after my recommendation, and therefore this did not fix anything for them, because nothing was broken to begin with.

However, my entire team uses vaseline in all of our Demons without issue and you'd be incredibly hard pressed to find a group of 10 Demons that have been as trouble free as ours have.

I don't recommend it if nothing is wrong, but if nothing else seems to work, give it a shot.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by Reaper (ACI)

Oh, okay, well you're wrong.

I'll give you the incredibly high probability that there are a lot of people who would have never had issues, that may have tried this after my recommendation, and therefore this did not fix anything for them, because nothing was broken to begin with.

However, my entire team uses vaseline in all of our Demons without issue and you'd be incredibly hard pressed to find a group of 10 Demons that have been as trouble free as ours have.

I don't recommend it if nothing is wrong, but if nothing else seems to work, give it a shot.

Well - we tried it in ours, with zero noticable difference

What climate do you play in?

[Reaper (ACI)]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

Well - we tried it in ours, with zero noticable difference

What climate do you play in?

You shouldn't notice a difference unless your Demon wasn't working when you switch.

I'm in Portland, OR. Mostly Cloudy, Rainy, and Cold. Short, dry summers that can get into the 90s, but rarely.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by Reaper (ACI)

You shouldn't notice a difference unless your Demon wasn't working when you switch.

I'm in Portland, OR. Mostly Cloudy, Rainy, and Cold. Short, dry summers that can get into the 90s, but rarely.

Well, we tried it on the guns with drop off issues, and they actually worsened with vaseline.... going back to standard lube improved it again

So, all I'm saying is, that vaseline is not necessarily the gospel.... and people shouldn't take it as the end all solution.

Either way, I know the factory is working on some stuff currently, that should remove the issue permanently, so this will hopefully all become a moot point soon.

I expect to see upgrade parts for sale over the next few months, for those that have issues.

One thing is for sure, Vanguard is working damn hard on ironing out the last little infancy problems, and pretty soon, every Demon owner in the world, should be able to stand tall and proudly say "I shoot the best spool valve in the market"

[Reaper (ACI)]

While I'm glad they're working on stuff, I don't consider putting a spring behind the bolt a "solution." It will mask the symptom though, which will make laymen users happy.

I do agree with you, and have stated myself several times, Vaseline is not the solution either, it's an option that has had positive effects for some users, my team included.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by Reaper (ACI)

While I'm glad they're working on stuff, I don't consider putting a spring behind the bolt a "solution." It will mask the symptom though, which will make laymen users happy.

"laymen" eh?

Well, that's not what I am talking about, we are way past that, because we already tested the spring mod extensively and while it has a minor positive effect (a slightly longer "lube life"), it does not solve the overriding issue of a way too delicately balanced drive train.

There is work being done to redesign the manifold, bolt & bolt guide.... all of which will be tested in the next few weeks.

[Cash Money Allstar]

I've heard they are coming out with a manifold without the QEV.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by Cash Money Allstar

I've heard they are coming out with a manifold without the QEV.

That's far from certain yet, it has to be tested first

But, the theory is, that at least for tournament play, a QEV is unnecessary, since you never need more that 15 BPS.

However, question is how it will work running full auto 20 BPS for scenario play

[cjlovi]

Originally Posted by Reaper (ACI)

Okay, then show me where they recommend it.

Almost every thread in this forum! Dow 55 on any ring in the marker will eventually seep through the system! "Manifold"!!!!!! May look good. May not be torn! Maybe slightly swelled?

SuperLube Grease! Works wonders on all markers. (Demons and Creeds) A "VERY Thin coating" lasts a lifetime! Small investment for a lifetime of happiness!

The grease is designed to stay put in high fluctuating air mechanisms. Designed for solenoids! Super comfy on 0-rings. It actually penetrates the pores on the o-rings and metal!

It will seal slight tolerance defects with out swelling the rings!

Superlube.com before you ask!

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by cjlovi

Superlube.com before you ask!

Think you mean super-lube.com?

[cjlovi]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

Think you mean super-lube.com?

[paul_gun]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

That's far from certain yet, it has to be tested first

But, the theory is, that at least for tournament play, a QEV is unnecessary, since you never need more that 15 BPS.

However, question is how it will work running full auto 20 BPS for scenario play

A qev is needed if the noid can't vent the escaping gas fast enough back through the noid spool the Qev in the demon isn't there for ROF..

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by paul_gun

A qev is needed if the noid can't vent the escaping gas fast enough back through the noid spool the Qev in the demon isn't there for ROF..

Well, that's true, and is what I meant

The much smaller outlet in a solenoid, is a problem at high ROF - but not a problem with low ROF

So, for tournament play, under the current rules, the solenoid should easily be able to handle venting.... and thus make the QEV obsolete.

This is specifically for the Demon, I am ofcourse aware another gun design may have volumes that require a QEV irrespective of the ROF.

[paul_gun]

The noid on the demon requires a Qev to allow the bolt to cycle fully and vent.
Its not a requirement in speed for this particular bolt system.

I specced the noid with mac directly when i designed the creed ram valve and the orifice in that particular noid is huge compared to a lot of the other noids used in todays guns. Unfortunately that noid doesn't have enough throw on the spool to vent the air on the demon bolt fast enough with the amount of forward acting energy stored in the bolt.

To run without a Qev would require either a change in the acting surfaces of the bolt or a increase in operating pressure which will work the noid much harder.

Rather than tweaking the bolt or manifold i would just work on increasing the stability of the QEV

[jason_vanguard]

Originally Posted by paul_gun

The noid on the demon requires a Qev to allow the bolt to cycle fully and vent.
Its not a requirement in speed for this particular bolt system.

I specced the noid with mac directly when i designed the creed ram valve and the orifice in that particular noid is huge compared to a lot of the other noids used in todays guns. Unfortunately that noid doesn't have enough throw on the spool to vent the air on the demon bolt fast enough with the amount of forward acting energy stored in the bolt.

To run without a Qev would require either a change in the acting surfaces of the bolt or a increase in operating pressure which will work the noid much harder.

Rather than tweaking the bolt or manifold i would just work on increasing the stability of the QEV

Stability = awesomeness

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by paul_gun

The noid on the demon requires a Qev to allow the bolt to cycle fully and vent.
Its not a requirement in speed for this particular bolt system.

I specced the noid with mac directly when i designed the creed ram valve and the orifice in that particular noid is huge compared to a lot of the other noids used in todays guns. Unfortunately that noid doesn't have enough throw on the spool to vent the air on the demon bolt fast enough with the amount of forward acting energy stored in the bolt.

To run without a Qev would require either a change in the acting surfaces of the bolt or a increase in operating pressure which will work the noid much harder.

Rather than tweaking the bolt or manifold i would just work on increasing the stability of the QEV

I stand corrected - thanks a lot for the information!

We have been operating under the impression the QEV was only important for high ROF, because that is often the case in other spoolies, and as such we asked the factory to make a manifold to test without the QEV..... It seems it's not that simple

New QEV design has to be the way to go.

[sameagol26]

I would indeed be interested in this new stuff that they work on. I love the shot and feel of the Demon, but I have always been worried about it's reliability. Sure, many people have 0 issues, and it works great, but lately I have heard a lot of these QEV quirks arising so it's made me a little uncomfortable since I am shooting a Demon this season and don't want to have to worry about it going down mid- game.

It will be interesting to see what Vanguard comes up with.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by sameagol26

I would indeed be interested in this new stuff that they work on. I love the shot and feel of the Demon, but I have always been worried about it's reliability. Sure, many people have 0 issues, and it works great, but lately I have heard a lot of these QEV quirks arising so it's made me a little uncomfortable since I am shooting a Demon this season and don't want to have to worry about it going down mid- game.

It will be interesting to see what Vanguard comes up with.

Well, none of the problems should affect you until after - at least - 5.000 shots since you have cleaned and relubed your drivetrain.

So, just give it a quick clean and lube job before each game, and you are golden, unless you carry 3 cases of paint with you on-field

None of this debate is because there is something "wrong" with the Demon, it functions perfectly, as long as it is maintained as it should be..... the factory is just perfecting the gun, to require less maintenance, which us lazy paintballers like

[LeftHook]

Originally Posted by sameagol26

So I see this is becoming quite a popular fix when it comes to many Demon issues these days which really quite confuses me but I am not going to argue with something that works...

Now thing is, I am picking my Demon up at LL5, and I want to use Vaseline for my lube right away, and wipe down the entire bolt system and HPR and then I am hoping to get some good chrono readings and stuff since it apparently improves consistency and FSDO prevention.

My question is, down the road, am I going to have to get even further into the marker and clean off all the regular Dow 55 they used in the more intricate parts, like on the manifold and areas like that with Vaseline? Do I need to worry about cleaning off every single oring from the stock lube and relube with vaseline?

Or does it really matter and I can just lube the bolt and HPR with vaseline and be fine. Yeah I know, sounds like a stupid question but I want to be sure of what I should do before I do it.

I don't want to take it all apart unless I have to.

you were one of the Canadian guys with the orange and white demons (beautiful guns by the way) - how did you like them? We looked at a couple of your markers the day before you got them.